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We'll never know who really won because there were not recounts
Approximately 3.3 million ballots were cast in the 2020 election in Wisconsin, and Joe Biden defeated Donald Trump by nearly twenty-one thousand votes. To date, according to the Associated Press, twenty-four people have been charged with voter fraud. Neither state nor independent reviews found evidence of widespread fraud. More than ten lawsuits filed by Trump and his allies were dismissed by various courts, and recounts in Dane and Milwaukee Counties, the state’s two most populous counties and the only ones where the Trump campaign requested recounts, confirmed Biden’s victory.
We'll never know despite the many recounts
Lol no. We have dozens of investigations showing it to be true.
No it doesn’t.
And your belief and opinion is empirically false.
We know you are wrong.
And if you can show that I’m wrong, you are free to do so. But reality doesn’t give a shit that you believe batshit crazy and repeatedly proven false conspiracy theories.
Yes, all examples of you rejecting reality.
Almost every election would go further in favor of a progressive candidate in the current system if we did hand recounts. The reason is very simple: we have systematically taken away resources from urban areas and overfunded rural areas to accelerate the change to a corporatist dictatorship. The John Lewis voting rights act would have prevented hundreds of bills from passing that now add measures like throwing out ballots that have minor errors, have the wrong date on the envelope, or are sent through the mail on time but arrive late because we cut off funding to the post office. Urban voters (well ok, "black" by which I mean black) are up to 10 times more likely to have their vote thrown out due to a tiny, irrelevant error. And don't tell anybody why felons can't vote lol! Now the Republican ("Republican" of course - as long as they say the system is rigged and CRT is destroying my life I feel good) will just be put in office by a state panel that I think DeSantis should form and maybe also Greg Abbott. Kavanaugh will be the new founding father and Trump should probably have his face carved into the mountain where Portland used to be. I mean, is now haha forgot that plan is running behind.One interesting thing about the WI recounts though, is that despite being requested by Trump they didn't go his way. In Dane county, he gained 45 ... but in Milwaukee county he went backwards by 132.
I'm guessing he chose those two counties because they're heavily Democratic and was counting on a random loss of votes to favor him in the state overall. And since the main reason for votes being disqualified on appeal was lack of signature (voter and/or witness) really nothing was learned except that Trump voters are dumb. Nothing about fraud, just inability to follow the written instructions ... ouch.
So wisconsin should clean its voter rolls.So what?
Trump lost. Biden won.
There is no issue with their voter rolls.So wisconsin should clean its voter rolls.
Almost every election would go further in favor of a progressive candidate in the current system if we did hand recounts. The reason is very simple: we have systematically taken away resources from urban areas and overfunded rural areas to accelerate the change to a corporatist dictatorship.
The John Lewis voting rights act would have prevented hundreds of bills from passing that now add measures like throwing out ballots that have minor errors, have the wrong date on the envelope, or are sent through the mail on time but arrive late because we cut off funding to the post office.
Urban voters (well ok, "black" by which I mean black) are up to 10 times more likely to have their vote thrown out due to a tiny, irrelevant error. And don't tell anybody why felons can't vote lol!
Now the Republican ("Republican" of course - as long as they say the system is rigged and CRT is destroying my life I feel good) will just be put in office by a state panel that I think DeSantis should form and maybe also Greg Abbott. Kavanaugh will be the new founding father and Trump should probably have his face carved into the mountain where Portland used to be. I mean, is now haha forgot that plan is running behind.
Trump thought that if they underfunded the urban areas enough they would screw up and he could use their shortcomings as "proof" he wuz robbed! But they STILL pulled off the election without error - so now they have to admit they want to end democracy and taking away the civil rights voting act was a huge step toward that. The only way this happens is if Americans don't ever check to see what their representatives do. And sure enough, they're out there letting veterans die and their constituents just wait to hear why they like it. Toomey said it's a slush find? Phew, thought I didn't like that one lol. This is Trump's legacy: proving that people hate the truth and love being lied to.
nearly twice as many registered voters as voting age population, and there's no issue with voter rolls he says.There is no issue with their voter rolls.
did you not read the thread? lol That claim was completely proven false. There are just over 3.2 million registered voters, not 7. So again, there is no issue with the voter rolls.nearly twice as many registered voters as voting age population, and there's no issue with voter rolls he says.
did you not read the thread? lol That claim was completely proven false. There are just over 3.2 million registered voters, not 7. So again, there is no issue with the voter rolls.
Perhaps you need to find more reliable sourcing for your claims?nearly twice as many registered voters as voting age population, and there's no issue with voter rolls he says.
If enough folks repeat the lie it will become true!did you not read the thread? lol That claim was completely proven false. There are just over 3.2 million registered voters, not 7. So again, there is no issue with the voter rolls.
voting seems to be made intentionally difficult. It should be tied to your SS# and DL. When you move, you are automatically updated to your new residence once you've updated our DL. No need for a separate voter registry. Every person with a SS# and a DL/State issued ID, can vote. And a secure online voting system needs implemented. Voting in person with a paper ballot is so hilariously outdated it's pathetic. Keep mail in voting for seniors who aren't so tech savvy, and let everyone else vote online.There is no issue on that scale, but with so many states and so much movement of voters between states, there will always be some issue with the voter rolls.
States should be more proactive. They have plenty of information directly and from local government, to detect when a "new" voter has moved into their jurisdiction. They should send out a form.
Inter-state cooperation is also a thing. It can be good, or bad (good being that they leave the voter on both rolls until the voter informs one of them, or until they vote provisional ... bad being they strike them off both rolls without informing them) but the principle of "two eyes see better than one" is sound. Governments should make it easy for voters to enroll properly and cast a valid vote.
And voters should inform themselves. If they're not on the roll when they go to vote, they're entitled to cast a Provisional vote. The onus should be on the county and state to verify that they're entitled to vote, before counting their vote. Or not. In fact, voters should be able to vote Provisionally in both addresses, past and current, and be assured that their vote will count in one of those places.
The only good thing about the protracted vote verification process, is that it allows time for absentee and provisional votes to be counted correctly. There is so much time, it can even be done by snail mail.
YES!I think you and the others who deride this effort need to relax. It will not change the ultimate results of the election, even if enough other States find fraud sufficient to "invalidate the results." Once Congress has certified the election, it is a done deal.
IMO what you and others are REALLY concerned about is the possibility of finding out that the 2020 election actually had "sufficient fraud to affect the election."
IMO (since I am in no position to fund/act to prove it) there was sufficient fraud via mail-in balloting. Not to give Trump the popular vote, but likely IMO to have given him the electoral votes needed just as in 2016. That is my suspicion, and what was happening in Wisconsin and elsewhere reinforces this without having shown to be sufficient to actually prove it...yet.
Meantime, I'd prefer in-person voting with pre-2020 election processes.
voting seems to be made intentionally difficult. It should be tied to your SS# and DL. When you move, you are automatically updated to your new residence once you've updated our DL. No need for a separate voter registry. Every person with a SS# and a DL/State issued ID, can vote. And a secure online voting system needs implemented. Voting in person with a paper ballot is so hilariously outdated it's pathetic. Keep mail in voting for seniors who aren't so tech savvy, and let everyone else vote online.
Just curious. How does someone who receives a mail-in ballot due to outdated voter rolls know how to even come close to the intended voter's signature? Is the next level of conspiracy thinking that the person who does receive the ballot incorrectly knew the intended voter well enough to be able to forge their signature and is predisposed to vote on their behalf?Those outdated voter rolls in mail out ballot states are certainly problematic. And are they purposely ignored, overlooked, and outdated in some states? Legal proceedings would indicate, yes they are. All those ballots are arriving at some address and can be used by anyone. Once they are filled out and mailed in or dropped off at a drop box, the only thing preventing a fraudulent ballot from being counted is a single signature check, which might be just a software setting as to the magnitude of that check - or a person subjectively deciding - good enough.
With in-person voting, the only people who ever get access to ballots are (hopefully) registered voters who are alive and present at a voting location. If proper ID is checked, chances are quite high that person is alive, residing in the state, and eligible to vote. That's a FAR more secure method.
Mail out ballots are undeniably a fraudsters dream. Having more ballots floating around than eligible voters is a recipe for fraud. And now knowing if the mailed out ballot ever actually reached the person it was intended for is another recipe for fraud.
I thought my peter lorre avatar implied sarcasm. Aside from it making no sense why rural precincts would require more funding than enormous, overwhelmed cities you're totally correct. Voting should be a national holiday and the joke was that there was a secret plan to give portland to a group of scary people and they'd have trump mountain. It's a horrifying visionWhoa! Rural voters are the corporatist dictatorship!?
Rural voters need more funding than urban voters, in fact I'm in favor of the State or Federal taxpayer sending out Voting Vans so the rural voter just has to walk to the front gate to vote. Their circumstances make it harder for them to vote on Election Day, and imo voting in private on election day is the right of all voters.
I'm fine with postal voting, and early voting, of course. If that's the voter's choice. But the choice should not be biased by long lines at the voting booth, nor a long drive to the voting booth. Postal voting lacks the assurance of privacy which in-person voting has, and despite "photocopies" and couples being allowed to enter the same booth, the principle is still alive and should be kept alive.
Serious concerns. USPS should have remained a government department, so they could be held to account. Particularly in light of 2020 when so many people voted postal (for obvious reasons) it would be incumbent on the Federal government to fund more staff and make strategic decisions like delaying all other mail.
All felons should have the vote. More than any other citizen they are "regulated" by government, so they should have a vote.
WHERE felons should vote is a more difficult matter. I'm for them voting in their previous district/state before imprisonment.
You're making me feel like a foreigner. President Portland?
Trumps legacy is much worse than that. It's "tell the lies that people want to hear" and it's based on his late career in media.
Remember Reagan, who admittedly made a big entrance into politics as governor of California (then as now, the most populous state.) But before that he had a long career in media, as a bad actor, moving up to radio, then to a weekly television infomercial for General Electric. Even the military couldn't find any use for him, than being media person.
I think it's very likely that Trump set his ambitions on President decades ago, when he moved from property speculation to media as his main job. And if we're smart, we should be looking out for the next Reagan or Trump who is trained up in the essential media skill of lying with a straight face ... and to be frank, giving more consideration to veteran politicians like Leahy or Grassley. Long service in politics uncovers the liars, no matter how good they are in front of a camera.
What if instead of political party, it listed your voting record? Like "DeSantis - against school, against homosexuals, against free speech, in favor of gerrymandering, in favor of less freedom"There is no issue on that scale, but with so many states and so much movement of voters between states, there will always be some issue with the voter rolls.
States should be more proactive. They have plenty of information directly and from local government, to detect when a "new" voter has moved into their jurisdiction. They should send out a form.
Inter-state cooperation is also a thing. It can be good, or bad (good being that they leave the voter on both rolls until the voter informs one of them, or until they vote provisional ... bad being they strike them off both rolls without informing them) but the principle of "two eyes see better than one" is sound. Governments should make it easy for voters to enroll properly and cast a valid vote.
And voters should inform themselves. If they're not on the roll when they go to vote, they're entitled to cast a Provisional vote. The onus should be on the county and state to verify that they're entitled to vote, before counting their vote. Or not. In fact, voters should be able to vote Provisionally in both addresses, past and current, and be assured that their vote will count in one of those places.
The only good thing about the protracted vote certification process, is that it allows time for absentee and provisional votes to be counted correctly. There is so much time, it can even be done by snail mail.
Disagree. A state issued ID works the same as a DL. There is no burden in having to get one. You need an ID for almost everything.I agree with all of that, except for accepting Drivers License as voting ID. Ten percent of voters don't have a driving license, so for them getting an ID just to vote would be an unequal burden.
A separate ID just for voting is redundant IMO. Literally everyone has either a DL or a state issued ID. If they don't, they can easily get one. There is no need for a completely separate IDThough it might grate some gears and cost more in funding the Roads authority, the only fair way is to require ALL voters to get a photo ID specifically for voting. And I think you'd find that when it applied to everyone, funding would be plentiful and the offices would be distributed according to population density, not accessibility by car.
Voting online would be extremely secure. Just like online banking, sending in tax returns etc.Oh, and online voting is a dumb idea if it doesn't include a mail component. For instance, a unique hash number mailed out to the voter. Emailing that number, or even some interactive process using a phone ap, is way too insecure.
It's laughably inefficient in a country of 330 million people, in the year 2022.Oh ... seems I don't agree much at all ... but voting in person with a paper ballot which is retained for later recounts, is still the absolutely best way to conduct an election.
In person voting is no more secure than mail in or online voting.We should spend good money to extend that right to everyone who wants it, and that includes taking voting booths and ballot boxes into nursing homes and into prisons, and to military stationed overseas. Because it is the most resistant method against official fraud.
Yet that is where the majority of fraud takes place.And, voters are far less bold in committing fraud when they're in the presence of members of their local community.
We use online systems for almost everything, and it is perfectly secure. There is no reason to continue the laughably inefficient in person voting.They're far more likely to feel ashamed and not do it than when they're fresh off a fake news site and using some handy ap they just downloaded to "fight back" against the opposite party's fraud they are sure in that moment is happening.
Ideally, you want voters using a pencil or a pen to fill in ballots, alone in the voting booth. Making it easy for "tech savvy" voters is an hilariously naive approach to technology. The truly tech savvy won't be the honest voters, it will be the fraudsters.
^^^Not operating with all the facts and true accuracies regarding the Voting topic.YES!
Those outdated voter rolls in mail out ballot states are certainly problematic. And are they purposely ignored, overlooked, and outdated in some states? Legal proceedings would indicate, yes they are. All those ballots are arriving at some address and can be used by anyone. Once they are filled out and mailed in or dropped off at a drop box, the only thing preventing a fraudulent ballot from being counted is a single signature check, which might be just a software setting as to the magnitude of that check - or a person subjectively deciding - good enough.
With in-person voting, the only people who ever get access to ballots are (hopefully) registered voters who are alive and present at a voting location. If proper ID is checked, chances are quite high that person is alive, residing in the state, and eligible to vote. That's a FAR more secure method.
Mail out ballots are undeniably a fraudsters dream. Having more ballots floating around than eligible voters is a recipe for fraud. And now knowing if the mailed out ballot ever actually reached the person it was intended for is another recipe for fraud.
YES!
Those outdated voter rolls in mail out ballot states are certainly problematic. And are they purposely ignored, overlooked, and outdated in some states? Legal proceedings would indicate, yes they are. All those ballots are arriving at some address and can be used by anyone.
Once they are filled out and mailed in or dropped off at a drop box, the only thing preventing a fraudulent ballot from being counted is a single signature check, which might be just a software setting as to the magnitude of that check - or a person subjectively deciding - good enough.
With in-person voting, the only people who ever get access to ballots are (hopefully) registered voters who are alive and present at a voting location.
If proper ID is checked, chances are quite high that person is alive, residing in the state, and eligible to vote.
That's a FAR more secure method.
Mail out ballots are undeniably a fraudsters dream. Having more ballots floating around than eligible voters is a recipe for fraud. And now knowing if the mailed out ballot ever actually reached the person it was intended for is another recipe for fraud.
Ten percent of voters don't have a driving license, so for them getting an ID just to vote would be an unequal burden. Though it might grate some gears and cost more in funding the Roads authority, the only fair way is to require ALL voters to get a photo ID specifically for voting.
It will never cease to amaze and confound me the low levels of intentional and or unintentional misinformation and or flat out lack of information folks like they will embrace to try and make their specious and faulty points in regards Voting and Election processes across our Nation.Anyone who can forge the signature, or risk being prosecuted. Ie ... not just anyone.
Or someone bearing ID which passes inspection. Old white guy with a beard, versus middle-aged white guy clean shaven - good enough.
The point you should make is that fraudulent voters whose real identity is not known, are there in person and can be arrested. Except no, that never happens. The most that happens is that the officials wave them off so they can try at another voting station ... or even the same one later in the day, when a different official is at the ID desk. OR EVEN later, after they've had a shave and changed their clothes.
It's hilarious that you put so much faith in election officials to check ID, when you mock their ability to match signatures. They're just human, they can make mistakes in both cases and in neither case are attempted cheats prosecuted.
Compared to issuing a unique voting card to everyone on the Social Security roll, all other methods are pathetically weak.
Oh right. An ID lasts 3 to 5 years, and nobody ever moves state (or district) in that time.
Providing the state knows the address of everyone living in the state (which they could mostly, considering bills payed to utilities, state tax records, and vehicle notices from police) and enhances that knowledge with the LACK of notices from other states, it is entirely practical to mail out ballots ONLY to legal residents of the state. I'm sure you don't like that kind of surveillance, but states have it if they would just look.
So it's not a huge potential for voter fraud. Really you should be more bothered by states misusing the data to disenfranchise people. But there we get into scary shit: people aren't really that bothered by what corporations or government knows about them, but they go bugshit about all that information going public.
Privacy of the vote is still a big deal. There is no accounting for families or households, there are deals done there like "no allowance unless you vote for x" and "no sex for two weeks if you dare to vote for y" which cannot be regulated. They are invasions of voting rights, and the only way to protect them is in-person voting, with only one person at a time allowed in a booth. That's MY reason for deprecating the postal vote, but it's also my reason for making in-person voting as quick, easy and intellectually simple as possible. Practically nobody needs "help" to vote, and when they do, the help should be provided by a non-partisan poll worker not a relative or carer.
Early voting addresses most of my concerns. Rural people who only go to town once or twice a month, can vote then or they can vote nearer to election day using a Voting Van which comes near to them. Nursing home residents can vote (early) on the one day that the poll workers come to them. Military stationed abroad can vote on the day, with poll workers sent to major bases (intelligence workers can vote by mail, but they would anyway since they don't want government officials coming to them). And all of them would still have the option of mail (absentee) voting. The point is that voting in privacy need not be denied, nor made onerous, to anyone.
I oppose mail-only voting. Not because of the risk of fraud, but because it provides no guarantee of privacy. Simply by spending more money, we can provide privacy of the vote to almost everyone, and the in-person process is better protected against individual and government fraud too.
Disagree. A state issued ID works the same as a DL. There is no burden in having to get one. You need an ID for almost everything.
A separate ID just for voting is redundant IMO. Literally everyone has either a DL or a state issued ID. If they don't, they can easily get one. There is no need for a completely separate ID
Voting online would be extremely secure. Just like online banking, sending in tax returns etc.
It's laughably inefficient in a country of 330 million people, in the year 2022.
In person voting is no more secure than mail in or online voting.
Yet that is where the majority of fraud takes place.
We use online systems for almost everything, and it is perfectly secure. There is no reason to continue the laughably inefficient in person voting.
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