• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Uncle Bush needs your help

freedom69714

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Messages
211
Reaction score
2
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Come on all you big strong men /woman Uncle Bush needs your help again to stop the back door draft

:hm Come on all you big strong men / woman Uncle Bush needs your help again he got him self in a terrable jam way back yonder in IRQA land So put down your books !!!!!! Get off that easy chair !!!! Leave that nice high paying job / low paying job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

And help stop the back door draft !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :applaud

:hm And just think you can tell you children and grand children that you did your part in the IRQA WAR! and stop the back door draft
:applaud
 
Last edited:

Hoot

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
18
Location
State of Confusion
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
There is no back door draft, at least I don't believe it.

I served 4 years, regular Army, in the field of satellite communications as a 26-Yankee at Ft. Detrick, Frederick, MD. I had a Secret security clearance, and at one point was upgraded to Top Secret for a 6 month mission. I had an opportunity to serve on the White House Communication Staff, which I refused because it would've meant extending my enlistment.

After my 4 years, and Honorable Discharge, I was still considered "inactive reserve" for a 6 year period. This meant that at any time during those 6 years, my country could've called me back into active duty, and there wasn't a thing I could've done about it.

I believe this is what's happening to our National Guardsmen?
You may have a young family and think..."Hmmmm...one weekend a month and two weeks a year, and I can get money for college, medical for my young family, and it will look great on future resumes. What a deal!"

Suddenly...your country calls you into active duty and sends you off to Iraq. You feel cheated and lied too...well...Doh!
You should've read the contract before signing and raising your right hand and taking that oath and swearing to obey the Commander in Chief.

I believe the "back door draft" is merely the military utilizing the portion of the "inactive reserve" clause.

The only thing the military has to guarantee you is the school that they promised you upon enlistment.

I had a one year long school...the longest school in the military at that time, but once I finished school, the military fullfilled it's obligation to me.
They could've had me peeling potatoes, or holding an M-16 on the front lines somewhere if that was their desire. Not a thing I could've done about it. You do what you're told to do, unless it's an unlawful order.

If you raise your right hand, then don't cry and whine about it when your country asks you to do more than you expected. You should've read the contract...especially with a republican in the White House. LOL

FYI...my Commander in Chief was Ronald Reagan. I voted for him the first time, but I did not vote for him for re-election.
Eventhough I disagreed with much of what Reagan did, as my commander in chief, I would've obeyed any order...that was my job.

OMIGAWD! I hope I'm not starting to sound like a conservative!? LOL
 

skabanger13

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
238
Reaction score
0
Location
texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
all i have to say is amen. thats how it is, and for all the weekend wariors out ther if your recuriter told you you wouldent be called up, are your chances wher slim. well thay lied to you good and if you wher stuped enuff to belive them you need to give that collage money back to some one whith the intellagenc to use it. :monkey
 

ViperX83

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
skabanger13 said:
all i have to say is amen. thats how it is, and for all the weekend wariors out ther if your recuriter told you you wouldent be called up, are your chances wher slim. well thay lied to you good and if you wher stuped enuff to belive them you need to give that collage money back to some one whith the intellagenc to use it. :monkey
I can only assume that this post is meant to be ironic.
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hoot said:
I believe this is what's happening to our National Guardsmen?
You may have a young family and think..."Hmmmm...one weekend a month and two weeks a year, and I can get money for college, medical for my young family, and it will look great on future resumes. What a deal!"

Suddenly...your country calls you into active duty and sends you off to Iraq. You feel cheated and lied too...well...Doh!
You should've read the contract before signing and raising your right hand and taking that oath and swearing to obey the Commander in Chief.

I believe the "back door draft" is merely the military utilizing the portion of the "inactive reserve" clause.
You're spot on there, Hoot. This isn't a "back door draft" as this is what the people signed up for to begin with. It is a rarity, but it does happen. Calling it a backdoor draft puts an unfortunate :spin: on it and takes away from the argument.
 

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
We are runnig thin on our reserves, though. If Bush decides to invade another country, we may just run out. You must atleast acknowledge that there is a possibility of a draft returning.
 

Batman

Active member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
407
Reaction score
7
Location
Fulton, KY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
anomaly said:
We are runnig thin on our reserves, though. If Bush decides to invade another country, we may just run out. You must atleast acknowledge that there is a possibility of a draft returning.
The Draft is not the way to get the military you want. You don't want people in who do not have their heart in it. I do not see it returning.
 

skabanger13

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
238
Reaction score
0
Location
texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
exactly their will not be a draft, nor do we want people their that are forced into it. Especially since it will hurt our bonuses, I don't want some one who would rather be at home watching my back I would rather have my brothers and sisters that decided that thats what thay wanted to do it would make me feal allot safer. Besides where the only country that has a 100% volunteer military and where not going to give that up, we like rubbing the fact that all our solders are their because thay want to be in other countryes faces.
Also any one that thanks the national guard and reserves going to Iraq is a back door draft, is sadly mistaken. I'm active duty and I know that national guard and reserves deploy more than us, the way the army sees it thay gave them all that money for collage and thay pay them every month their going to get their money back by deploying them. With us we work for them every day we have a job to do we earn our keep thay get their money worth.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
skabanger13 said:
exactly their will not be a draft, nor do we want people their that are forced into it. Especially since it will hurt our bonuses, I don't want some one who would rather be at home watching my back I would rather have my brothers and sisters that decided that thats what thay wanted to do it would make me feal allot safer. Besides where the only country that has a 100% volunteer military and where not going to give that up, we like rubbing the fact that all our solders are their because thay want to be in other countryes faces.
Also any one that thanks the national guard and reserves going to Iraq is a back door draft, is sadly mistaken. I'm active duty and I know that national guard and reserves deploy more than us, the way the army sees it thay gave them all that money for collage and thay pay them every month their going to get their money back by deploying them. With us we work for them every day we have a job to do we earn our keep thay get their money worth.
Well if you're rubbing that in the faces of soldiers from countries of say, Britain or Australia you may want to stop. Here's a listing of countries that do currently have Conscription (draft) that you can "rub their faces in it."

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_con

You'll note Poland's on that list ("he forgot Poland!") So if you run into any of those guys rub away. But, I think they pulled out around the first of the year, so you're not likely to see any of them. Canada's also is missing from the list though I doubt you'll run into any Canadians either.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
Batman said:
The Draft is not the way to get the military you want. You don't want people in who do not have their heart in it. I do not see it returning.
I agree with you. But number's are running short. Recruiters are not meeting their quota's. If we do find ourselves in a situation where we need to protect ourselves on another front. What when?
 

skabanger13

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
238
Reaction score
0
Location
texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Recruiting is ruining steady, I was just at meps the other day we have plenty people signing up. Most of them are joining Army and their where quite a few joining the marins to which are the branch's that need the most because we are the ones that are taking the most loses.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
skabanger13 said:
Recruiting is ruining steady, I was just at meps the other day we have plenty people signing up. Most of them are joining Army and their where quite a few joining the marins to which are the branch's that need the most because we are the ones that are taking the most loses.
I hate to disagree with you but according to several high ranking military officials recruiting is suffering at all time lows. According to a report in The Dallas Morning News, Published Wednesday, December 15, 2004 Army Reserve recruiting is in a "precipitous decline" that could provoke new debate over a draft if not slowed, the Reserve´s top general said Monday. Lt. Gen. Ron Helmly - who said he opposes reinstituting a draft - blamed the bureaucracy for dragging its feet implementing new bonuses for recruits and re-enlistments that Congress included in this year´s defense bill. "The bureaucracy is much too sluggish, much too unresponsive," Helmly said. "Congress was very energetic and concerned about Reserve component as well as active component recruiting, retention and strength, and was therefore very supportive of these measures," he said of the bonuses and other new authorities. "Now we need to get on and execute those."

And for the first time in 10 years the Marine Corps fell short in their recruiting efforts. This coupled with declining numbers of reenlistments lead to increased bonus over the past several months. But according to both the Army and the Marine Corps Reenlistments continue to be at all time record lows. So while the Meps Depot may have new enlistees, according to the Officers counting heads, there's not enough heads.

This continues to worry many now that we're faced with increased pressures from places such as North Korea and Iran. What do we do if we need to spread thing out even further?

This all could be good news to you- More bonus money in your pocket, which I'm all for. Personally I don't think we're paying you and you're anything close to what we owe you. I mean if a guy driving truck for Haliburton's making 100,000 a year in Afghanistan. Shouldn't we at least be paying the guy's providing him protection half that?
 
Last edited:

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Pacridge said:
I hate to disagree with you but according to several high ranking military officials recruiting is suffering at all time lows. According to a report in The Dallas Morning News, Published Wednesday, December 15, 2004 Army Reserve recruiting is in a "precipitous decline" that could provoke new debate over a draft if not slowed, the Reserve´s top general said Monday. Lt. Gen. Ron Helmly - who said he opposes reinstituting a draft - blamed the bureaucracy for dragging its feet implementing new bonuses for recruits and re-enlistments that Congress included in this year´s defense bill. "The bureaucracy is much too sluggish, much too unresponsive," Helmly said. "Congress was very energetic and concerned about Reserve component as well as active component recruiting, retention and strength, and was therefore very supportive of these measures," he said of the bonuses and other new authorities. "Now we need to get on and execute those."

And for the first time in 10 years the Marine Corps fell short in their recruiting efforts. This coupled with declining numbers of reenlistments lead to increased bonus over the past several months. But according to both the Army and the Marine Corps Reenlistments continue to be at all time record lows. So while the Meps Depot may have new enlistees, according to the Officers counting heads, there's not enough heads.

This continues to worry many now that we're faced with increased pressures from places such as North Korea and Iran. What do we do if we need to spread thing out even further?

This all could be good news to you- More bonus money in your pocket, which I'm all for. Personally I don't think we're paying you and you're anything close to what we owe you. I mean if a guy driving truck for Haliburton's making 100,000 a year in Afghanistan. Shouldn't we at least be paying the guy's providing him protection half that?
Can you blame people for not wanting to sign up? We're in the middle of a war with which half the country disagrees. There are of course going to be less volunteers during wartime. Also, you make a good point about the money the volunteers are receiving, but, if you've read some of my other posts, you'll know that I really have a problem with the money most people in this country are receiving. It's really quite unfair. An athlete makes $4 million/year and a college professor makes $80,000? This is the situation in all countries, though, and in my mind, it is one of the biggest flaws with our capitalist system.
Getting back to Bush's 'war on terror', I suppose the only thing to do is to hope that Bush doesn't invade any more countries. I am especially worried about this, since in a year's time I am eligible for the draft, and let me tell you, I have no interest in joining any branch of the military.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
anomaly said:
I am especially worried about this, since in a year's time I am eligible for the draft, and let me tell you, I have no interest in joining any branch of the military.
How are you eligible for a draft that doesn't exist?
 

Batman

Active member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
407
Reaction score
7
Location
Fulton, KY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
anomaly said:
I am especially worried about this, since in a year's time I am eligible for the draft, and let me tell you, I have no interest in joining any branch of the military.
pacridge said:
How are you eligible for a draft that doesn't exist?
I think this is a good example of irrational fear that has been drummed up by certain media and politicians.

Pacridge, I don't think Bush is going to commit ground troops anywhere else soon, but if we were to need more troops due to a national emergency, I think many would sign up out of patriotism.
 

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I'm obviously saying that if a draft does reappear, I would be eligible in about a year. And Batman, the idea of 'patriotism' wears thin on me. Why should I show admiration toward a country that shows me (and billions throughout the world) none? Why should I love a country with which I constantly disagree? As a wise man once put it "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". I believe America was created for the right reasons, some 200 years ago, but I cannot love it now, since today 'patriotism' means loving and agreeing with one's gov't.
 

skabanger13

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
238
Reaction score
0
Location
texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Well their where about 100 people at meps with me all signing contracts, it surprised me me how many where prior service like my self. Also I hope your right about them upping the bonuses I'm due to sign my contract soon, and your right at about $20,000. a year, for lower enlisted,isent enuff, where very under paid for what we do. Than agen for the most part I don't thank the main reason where all signing up is for the money, its just an added bonus, I thank the reason most of us our doing it is because we know our country needs us.
One thang I would like to add is the other day I was at the recruting station and a Mexican guy, that could hardly speak English, that was over hear for a short time on some sort of visa went and told the recruiter he wanted to join. That got me thanking maybe theirs an untaped resource we haven't used I already know you can get your American citizenship by serving in the military, and if you become a citezen your dependents become citezens plus you have the chance to learn a skill to become a productive member of society, and you cant beat the learning are the medical benefits. Just a thought.
 

skabanger13

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
238
Reaction score
0
Location
texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Hay if you hate your country so much I'm sure theirs a country out their that will have you, give me your address ill pay for your plain ticket.
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
skabanger has a point there, on July 3rd, 2002, President Bush signed Executive Order 13269 that expedited naturalization of aliens and noncitizen nationals serving in the Armed Forces.
 

GarzaUK

That European Guy
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
3,682
Reaction score
625
Location
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Many people will sign up for patriotism maybe, but when they get to the front it's not about fighting for your country anymore, it's all about making sure your alive to see the next day.

Britain has already seen what blind patriotism can do in World War 1, the UK didn't like it too much. Most British didn't fight World War 2 for their country, we fought it because it HAD to be done.

When bullets are whizzing past and holding your dead friends corspe, fighting for your country would seem pretty hollow.

A country is not worth fighting for, ideals are - such as freedom, but come on America's freedom will never be threatned by terrorism or rogue states.

Personally I would only fight for my own freedom, my family and friends lives or my own life. Countries are land with borders and a flag - thats all.
 

Batman

Active member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
407
Reaction score
7
Location
Fulton, KY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
anomaly said:
I'm obviously saying that if a draft does reappear, I would be eligible in about a year. And Batman, the idea of 'patriotism' wears thin on me. Why should I show admiration toward a country that shows me (and billions throughout the world) none? Why should I love a country with which I constantly disagree? As a wise man once put it "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". I believe America was created for the right reasons, some 200 years ago, but I cannot love it now, since today 'patriotism' means loving and agreeing with one's gov't.
It's your prerogative not to. Which is a GREAT thing about the country in which you live.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
skabanger13 said:
Well their where about 100 people at meps with me all signing contracts, it surprised me me how many where prior service like my self. .
What does that matter? The number of people at any given Meps station really doesn't mean a thing. The numbers that are important are the ones in total. And the totals aren't adding up to enough according to the top brass.

But you're right about the enlistments of other nationals. I remember when I was in we had lots of Philippine nationals. Back in the sixty and early seventies they could only serve as houseboys and cooks. But that changed around 76 and they were allowed to apply for any rate. After four years of service they could apply for US citizenship. In 2002 Bush restarted this program.
 

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Batman said:
It's your prerogative not to. Which is a GREAT thing about the country in which you live.
Hey, thanks for not responding like an *** like skabanger did. But skabanger, I would like that money.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
anomaly said:
Hey, thanks for not responding like an *** like skabanger did. But skabanger, I would like that money.
Hey, I want some of the cash if it's to be handed out. In fact I'd be happy to leave the country for the cash. I'm coming back in two weeks, but I'll be happy to step out for a while. Esp. on someone else's dime. Haven't been to Hong Kong in a several years. I know it's nice in the spring.
 
Top Bottom