UN report findings indicate Assad gassed Damascus

[ecofarm]

This entire episode in Syria is not worth one US life nor any US resources. Either side has no value to us. Given resources they would jump at the chance to kill us all. Only Obama could take this face slapping from Putin and spin it to try to make it look like he's the world's savior. What a total fool he is, and how stupid do we all look for putting him in office..... twice.

Do try to stay on topic. We're discussing the UN report findings, not your personal pulpit.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

Your burden of proof swings wildly depending on how much you like the information. From your link:

Actually it doesn't. The situations are completely different. In one, we are saying who has a weapon, in the other, we are potentially going to bomb the hell out of a country.

 

[ecofarm]

Actually it doesn't. The situations are completely different.

You mean like an accountable open democracy and a dictator, son of a dictator, 10s of 1000s, gassed Damascus. The Russians claim to have not examined the evidence Assad gave them before giving it to the UN.

But, yeah, Obama is lying, there is no evidence, because the former is such a reliable source.

In one, we are saying who has a weapon, in the other, we are potentially going to bomb the hell out of a country.

If Assad leaves the country, the transitional govt can be assembled without the violence of overthrowing him. Something that we would like, before he leaves (one way or another), is a list of all chem locations. We're getting that or boom. Hopefully, Assad can negotiate asylum somewhere (Russia can have him). Killing him is not important, compared to averting war with the US.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

You mean like an accountable open democracy and a dictator, son of a dictator, 10s of 1000s, gassed Damascus. The Russians claim to have not examined the evidence Assad gave them before giving it to the UN.

But, yeah, Obama is lying, there is no evidence, because the former is such a reliable source.



If Assad leaves the country, the transitional govt can be assembled without the violence of overthrowing him. Something that we would like, before he leaves (one way or another), is a list of all chem locations. We're getting that or boom. Hopefully, Assad can negotiate asylum somewhere (Russia can have him). Killing him is not important, compared to averting war with the US.

When you combine what the UN said with the fact that the Syrian rebels have a video in which they use chemical weapons on a rabbit (LiveLeak.com - Shocking Video: Syrian Rebels Testing Chem Weapons On Rabbits As Warning To Civilians) and the fact that Turkish prosecutors accuse Syrian rebels of having sought sarin gas (Syrian rebel groups sought sarin gas material, Turkish prosecutors say - latimes.com), there it is quite likely that the Syrian rebels had sarin gas.

You mean like an accountable open democracy and a dictator, son of a dictator, 10s of 1000s, gassed Damascus. The Russians claim to have not examined the evidence Assad gave them before giving it to the UN.

But, yeah, Obama is lying, there is no evidence, because the former is such a reliable source.

No, I mean like in how one you have evidence that the Syrian rebels have sarin gas and in the other you are talking about evidence which you are going to use to bomb a country. I would prefer that there be a good amount of evidence on both sides (which there is), however in the latter option, I would prefer we be certain rather than risking getting even more involved into this situation than we already are.

However, we do agree that a democracy would be best and that Assad is a massive turd.

If Assad leaves the country, the transitional govt can be assembled without the violence of overthrowing him. Something that we would like, before he leaves (one way or another), is a list of all chem locations. We're getting that or boom. Hopefully, Assad can negotiate asylum somewhere (Russia can have him). Killing him is not important, compared to averting war with the US.

I agree with the bolded, however I am quite worried about Islamists being in the government or things more generally going to hell, if Libya is any indication.

 

[Fallenangel]

Regarding various modifications of M-14 rockets.

Here is a photo of a M-14 explosive missile for BM-14 (note the similar markings on the missile).



Source for the picture http://www.primeportal.net/artillery (In Russian)


And here is a video I found of similar rockets apparently used by the "rebels".



Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

I agree with the bolded, however I am quite worried about Islamists being in the government or things more generally going to hell, if Libya is any indication.

How does it get worse than a dictator killing 10s of 1000s and gassing the capital?

Terrorists are not in control of Libya. If we are to use Libya as an example, it counters your narrative.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

How does it get worse than a dictator killing 10s of 1000s and gassing the capital?

Terrorists are not in control of Libya. If we are to use Libya as an example, it counters your narrative.

I'm not saying it can't get worse, but it can still be bad.

No, terrorists are not in control of Libya, but stuff like this worries me. (Libyan leader's embrace of Sharia raises eyebrows - CNN.com) (Libyans Say Sharia Will Be Law Of The Land - The Daily Beast)

"Libya's prime minister on Tuesday appealed to the outside world to help restore security, as it combats political chaos and tries to restart oil exports crippled by protesters at a cost of $130 million a day in lost income." (Chaotic Libya appeals for help to restore security | Reuters)

I am not saying that we should assume things will be peachy keen from the get-go, but the whole Islamic law thing rubs me the wrong way.

 

[ecofarm]

I'm not saying it can't get worse, but it can still be bad.

Actually, that IS what you claimed: "things more generally going to hell".

It can always be bad, that's not an argument.

No, terrorists are not in control of Libya,

Right, so your use of them as an example counters your narrative.

I am not saying that we should assume things will be peachy keen from the get-go, but the whole Islamic law thing rubs me the wrong way.

So, your position is based on emotion and you're providing evidence against your own narrative.

 

[ido_]

There are three trains of thought at work here:

1. Assad and his government are at fault.

2. The Syrian rebels are at fault here.

3 Neither of these groups are at fault and it was a false flag operation by some or all the parties I listed.

Just because you don't agree with a possibility doesn't mean you can fluff it off as a conspiracy theory.

You and I don't know the truth.

It doesn't matter who is at fault. Chemical weapons are used against Syrian civilians, the world needs to take out the chemical weapons stockpile in Syria.

 

[WCH]

It doesn't matter who is at fault. Chemical weapons are used against Syrian civilians, the world needs to take out the chemical weapons stockpile in Syria.

That civil war has cost the lives of over 100,000 souls, only a 1000 or so (maybe less) due to chemical weapons.

Take away the chemical weapons and they will still kill each other by some other means.

I say isolate them, let who wants to leave do so and make some popcorn. :twocents:

 

[Mr. Invisible]

Actually, that IS what you claimed: "things more generally going to hell".

It can always be bad, that's not an argument.



Right, so your use of them as an example counters your narrative.



So, your position is based on emotion and you're providing evidence against your own narrative.

No, my position is not based on emotion. I clearly gave evidence of the Islamist leanings of the new Libyan government.

 

[MadLib]

Who's correct, the war-mongering West or the Russians who want no such war?

The United Nations also does not want a war, but the evidence it provided implicates Assad. Israel, also neutral, claims to have evidence that Assad carried out the chemical attack. Meanwhile, Moscow wants the Assad regime to stay in power for economic and diplomatic reasons and is in no way shape or form impartial to the events in Syria.

It's actually pretty sad that you trust despotic, expansionist Russia over both the West and neutral observers.

 

[Fallenangel]

The United Nations also does not want a war, but the evidence it provided implicates Assad. Israel, also neutral, claims to have evidence that Assad carried out the chemical attack. Meanwhile, Moscow wants the Assad regime to stay in power for economic and diplomatic reasons and is in no way shape or form impartial to the events in Syria.

It's actually pretty sad that you trust despotic, expansionist Russia over both the West and neutral observers.

See my previous posts in the thread.
The "rebels" also have long range missiles capabilities, and apparently use (at least in the case of M-14 modifications) similar rockets to those that have been described in UN the report.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[WCH]

The United Nations also does not want a war, but the evidence it provided implicates Assad. Israel, also neutral, claims to have evidence that Assad carried out the chemical attack. Meanwhile, Moscow wants the Assad regime to stay in power for economic and diplomatic reasons and is in no way shape or form impartial to the events in Syria.

It's actually pretty sad that you trust despotic, expansionist Russia over both the West and neutral observers.

What Putin and Russia aren't the Liberal utopia any longer?

How anxious are you to cover for your president's lousy foreign policy?

BTW: I trust no one.

 

[ecofarm]

I'm not saying it can't get worse, but it can still be bad.

It's always bad. We don't have equal rights in the Western world. You want a utopia to spring from Syria and lead mankind into global human rights? That's not gonna happen.

How could it be worse?

 

[ecofarm]

No, my position is not based on emotion. I clearly gave evidence of the Islamist leanings of the new Libyan government.

Religion will not defeat human (equal) rights and justice. Just as the West, the East will emerge from tyranny a free and prosperous people. To Iran.

 

[ecofarm]

That report came out this week. While, per its directive, it did not cast blame on any one side, Kerry said that it offered "crucial details" that make the case implicating al-Assad "only ... more compelling."

"Anybody who reads the facts and puts the dots together -- which is easy to do and they made it easy to do -- understands what those facts mean," Kerry said.
As an example, Kerry said the U.N. report notes that only the Syrian government forces are capable of using the type of chemical weapon-laden munitions and rockets the way were used. Kerry said it's unrealistic to think anyone but they had access to such weapons as well as the means to deliver them.

"There's not a shred of evidence that the opposition does (have that capability)," he added.

Noting 'crucial details' implicating Syria, Kerry pushes U.N. action - CNN.com



Sorry, Fallen, but I think the US government has seen the youtube videos you've been posting. Maybe you know more than everyone, via youtube, but I doubt it. Feel free to continue your ridiculous youtube investigation.

See my previous posts in the thread.
The "rebels" also have long range missiles capabilities, and apparently use (at least in the case of M-14 modifications) similar rockets to those that have been described in UN the report.

 

[Fallenangel]

That report came out this week. While, per its directive, it did not cast blame on any one side, Kerry said that it offered "crucial details" that make the case implicating al-Assad "only ... more compelling."

"Anybody who reads the facts and puts the dots together -- which is easy to do and they made it easy to do -- understands what those facts mean," Kerry said.
As an example, Kerry said the U.N. report notes that only the Syrian government forces are capable of using the type of chemical weapon-laden munitions and rockets the way were used. Kerry said it's unrealistic to think anyone but they had access to such weapons as well as the means to deliver them.

"There's not a shred of evidence that the opposition does (have that capability)," he added.

Noting 'crucial details' implicating Syria, Kerry pushes U.N. action - CNN.com

Sorry, Fallen, but I think the US government has seen the youtube videos you've been posting. Maybe you know more than everyone, via youtube, but I doubt it. Feel free to continue your ridiculous youtube investigation.

:shrug:
Didn't we go through that already, youtube is only an online information sharing platform.
What is important is the content of the videos i.e the information not the platform (again youtube itself is not a source but a mere platform) from which it was gathered.

Moreover, maybe instead of posting the same "it's only youtube videos" statements you would actually look at what I posted.
For instance, in the last video the "rebels" supposedly use M-14 type rockets (or some kind of a similar modification), the same type that was used in the chemical attack.

Lastly, if you think that various intelligence services around the world don't use internet (various sites, youtube, facebook, etc..) to gather information... well you simply need to learn a bit more about how they operate.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

What is important is the content of the videos i.e the information not the platform (again youtube itself is not a source but a mere platform) from which it was gathered.

What's the deal. The US has seen the video and did not see that rocket being used. Or... they're lying in spite of video evidence. It's a good thing you caught them! They almost got away with it. Good job, youtube detective.

Moreover, maybe instead of posting the same "it's only youtube videos" statements you would actually look at what I posted.

I don't know how to use photoshop, and I'm to bother with videos made by Islamic extremists. As if I would have any idea of the modification of video or audio. As if I can tell the difference between a N55 and 120mm rocket. What are you, some kind of rocket scientist? Because the painted numbers? That's not very convincing.

For instance, in the last video the "rebels" supposedly use M-14 type rockets (or some kind of a similar modification), the same type that was used in the chemical attack.

Supposedly according to who?

Lastly, if you think that various intelligence services around the world don't use internet (various sites, youtube, facebook, etc..) to gather information... well you simply need to learn a bit more about how they operate.

Because terrorists are on facebook. That makes sense. Instead of conducting Jihad, they're getting likes on fb.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The "rebels" also have long range missiles capabilities, and apparently use (at least in the case of M-14 modifications) similar rockets to those that have been described in UN the report.

This was not a knock-off or a modification. One of the intact components was a Russian M-14 rocket assembly. Serial number stamped on outside was 97-179. Serial number engraved the bottom ring engine: И Ш 4 25-6 7-179 К

Do you see the 179 in both serial numbers? According the the Russian M-14 manual, this number denotes the manufacture location. Anyone familiar with Russian artillery/rockets will immediately recognize that this munition was fabricated at the Siberian Agriculture Machinery Plant in Russia which is officially designated as Plant 179. Without doubt, this is a Russian munition.

 

[Fallenangel]

What's the deal. The US has seen the video and did not see that rocket being used. Or... they're lying in spite of video evidence. It's a good thing you caught them! They almost got away with it. Good job, youtube detective.

Did your congressman told you that they have seen these videos?

As I already mentioned, I am not interested in debating the "unknown" but in discussing the actual facts we do know regarding the capabilities of the "rebels" and the data from the UN report.

I don't know how to use photoshop, and I'm to bother with videos made by Islamic extremists. As if I would have any idea of the modification of video or audio. As if I can tell the difference between a N55 and 120mm rocket. What are you, some kind of rocket scientist? Because the painted numbers? That's not very convincing.

M-14 and its modifications, are rockets that were and still are used by various countries & groups around the world - these are rockets for portable or stationary 140 mm rocket launchers such as for instance the Soviet BM-14 and RPU-14.
These launchers may have different numbers of "tubes" and be placed on different platforms. They can be towed such as for instance RPU-14 , truck based, etc.

RPU -14


As I have already shown in my previous post the "rebels" apparently already used similar weapons, so they have the capability to launch these rockets.
There are number of modifications to these rockets & launchers that have been produced by different countries over the years, so it is hard to point out which type exactly was used in the video I've posted, but it is clearly a modification of M-14 so... the capability exists.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that these rockets indeed, can carry explosive, phosphorous or chemical war heads.

Supposedly according to who?

The rebels themselves - as already been shown to you.

Because terrorists are on facebook. That makes sense. Instead of conducting Jihad, they're getting likes on fb.

Actually they do, they have sites (as I showed you before), facebook pages, etc...you see mate these are only platforms for sharing information with the world and your peers. It is a great way to showcase what one can do/does, and gather more supporters/funds.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[Fallenangel]

This was not a knock-off or a modification. One of the intact components was a Russian M-14 rocket assembly. Serial number stamped on outside was 97-179. Serial number engraved the bottom ring engine: И Ш 4 25-6 7-179 К

Do you see the 179 in both serial numbers? According the the Russian M-14 manual, this number denotes the manufacture location. Anyone familiar with Russian artillery/rockets will immediately recognize that this munition was fabricated at the Siberian Agriculture Machinery Plant in Russia which is officially designated as Plant 179. Without doubt, this is a Russian munition.

a. See here...if you think I didn't notice the markings.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/172989-un-report-findings-indicate-assad-gassed-damascus-6.html#post1062334863

b. Russian munition was and is scattered around the world, as I've shown in the post above the "rebels" have & used M-14 and its launchers (or at least modifications of both)... so the capability exists.


Fallen.

 

[Fallenangel]

Some more info regarding the rocket launcher in the video I posted before.



It is most probably, a Type-63 Chinese rocket launcher (or a different production model of it, as they were produced also in few other countries) - I also found some more videos from the same group Liwa al-Islam that show the usage of a similar launcher.
These launchers have smaller rocket caliber 107 mm, not the 140 mm as in the soviet made M-14.
However, again we see a capability of the "rebels" to launch rockets similar to the M-14 used in the chemical attack.


The banner of Islam: targeting Alfozdhika sites based in Mount Qasion 107-mm rockets

(Translated with google translate.)

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

However, again we see a capability of the "rebels" to launch rockets similar to the M-14 used in the chemical attack.

Meaningless.

 

[Fallenangel]

Meaningless.

Care to expand on this, beyond your usual it's just a youtube video?!

Btw. Here is another from a "rebel" site. I can't recognize the system yet. Though, again a system that launches rockets similar to M-14.

KD neighboring battalion of the old customs in the country shield its programs missiles

(Used google translate)

Cheers,
Fallen.