UN Arms Trade Treaty

[Moot]

Warning: thread videos contain foul language



Really, who can argue with that?

The UN Arms Trade Treaty has an exception that reads:

The States Parties to this Treaty, Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations...Reaffirming the sovereign right of any State to regulate and control conventional arms exclusively within its territory, pursuant to its own legal or constitutional system...

http://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2013/04/20130410 12-01 PM/Ch_XXVI_08.pdf#page=21

So whats the problem with the UN Arms Trade Treaty? Well....nothing really...unless you're NRA former nutjob LaPierre....

"I am here to announce NRA's strong opposition to anti-freedom policies that disregard American citizens right to self-defense," said LaPierre during UN testimony on the treaty last year. "We will not stand idly by while international organizations, whether state-based or stateless, attempt to undermine the fundamental liberties our men and women in uniform have fought so bravely to preserve...and on which our entire American system of government is based".

After his testimony to the UN, LaPierre told reporters outside the UN building: "We are not gonna let our great American freedoms be reduced to some global lowest common denominator," he bravely explained. "We are not gonna submit American freedoms to these globalist vultures that will reduce American freedom to a hollow shell. We are not gonna let that happen, we are gonna fight it and we're gonna defeat it."

LaPierre went on FoxNews to tell people that the proposed treaty "says to people in the United States 'turn over your personal protection and your firearms to the government'."

The BRAD BLOG : Caving To NRA Lies, Obama Administration Backs Away from UN Small Arms Trade Treaty

Well, now we know where Police Chief Kessler gets his information from because he sure didn't bother to read what the UN Arms Trade Treaty really said. Unfortunately, thanks to the NRA's lying propaganda, neither did congress because they didn't ratify the treaty. Oh but never fear, because as long as someone like Chief Kessler is on "dudy" or is it "doody" and swallowing NRA propaganda hook line and sinker, we needn't ever worry about "despotic regimes, human rights abusers, warlords, pirates and drug lords around the world." Because he and thousands just like him all over rural America have got us covered.

 

[PeteEU]

Bet he has money in arms manufactures and hence a vested interested in selling weapons across the global that kill people.

 

[Moot]

Apparently, there's been a few complaints about Police Chief Kessler's comments about John Kerry and the UN and he would like to formally apologize to anyone he might have offended....

 

[Moot]

Police Chief’s ‘Libtard’ Gun Videos Get Him 30-Day Suspension


A Pennsylvania police chief who recorded profanity-ridden YouTube videos in which he fired automatic weapons and railed against Democrats on gun issues was handed a 30-day suspension Wednesday night.

The Allentown Morning Call reported that Borough Council members in Gilberton voted to suspend Chief Mark Kessler for a month without pay for using the town's guns in the viral videos.

Kessler emerged from the private meeting with council members telling a mixed crowd of gun rights advocates that the council was "bowing to political pressure" and that there are "no policies in place in Gilberton to govern" his actions in the videos, according to the newspaper.

Kessler is the only police officer in the borough of fewer than 800 residents, according to the Morning Call, and will be replaced by state police during his suspension.

The police chief's videos sparked controversy for his flagrant attacks against Democrats, whom he called "libtards," and Democratic politicians like Secretary of State John Kerry and Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), the latter of whom he visualized as a shooting target in one training video.

"Kessler's video was produced to threaten and intimidate," Michael Morrill, the executive director of advocacy group Keystone Progress and who is calling for Kessler's termination, told the Morning Call. "People who are registered Democrats cannot expect to be treated fairly because Kessler doesn't even want to call them people because that's being too kind. He calls liberals 'libtards' and says the Founding Fathers would be shooting them if they were alive today."

Police Chief Mark Kessler Gets 30-Day Suspension | TPM LiveWire




I wonder how Kessler got the job of Police Chief in the first place?



Reaction to Kessler's suspension:

Gilberton police chief suspended; posts another video - mcall.com

 

[Moot]

Bet he has money in arms manufactures and hence a vested interested in selling weapons across the global that kill people.

I don't. I just think he's a local yocal with more guns than brains and is easily manipulated by NRA propaganda. Problem is there are thousands if not millions more just like him all over the country and worse yet, they're getting into positions of power and authority and that's scary.

 

[PeteEU]

I don't. I just think he's a local yocal with more guns than brains and is easily manipulated by NRA propaganda. Problem is there are thousands if not millions more just like him all over the country and worse yet, they're getting into positions of power and authority and that's scary.

Oh not talking about the idiot in the OP, talking about the head of the NRA.

 

[Moot]

Oh not talking about the idiot in the OP, talking about the head of the NRA.

Oh, in that case, yeah, you're probably right.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I don't. I just think he's a local yocal with more guns than brains and is easily manipulated by NRA propaganda.

I don't think that the issue is smarts. Plenty of smart people believe crazy things.

I think it's that in matter where our opinions/action will have little impact, we choose our opinions based on factors other than those which one would use to make a responsible, informed decision where our thoughts or actions would have a large, immediate impact.

Imho, that's why religions/partisanships tend to have geographic centers of gravity. It's not that by some chance everyone who lives in a certain locale thought about The Big Questions/politics and came to the same rational conclusions. It's that our opinions about TBQ/p have little ability to influence the outcomes related to TBQ/p. But our answers do have notable influence on our interactions with our peers and family. Given that one has more immediate short-term controllable consequences and the other may or may not have long-term consequences at some indefinite later date, it's not hard to see why we might tend to accept or believe things for reasons other than because those beliefs or creeds are sensible or rational. [no comment on the actual sensible-ness or rationality of any belief or creed, just about our reasons for choosing some of them]

 

[ttwtt78640]

Warning: thread videos contain foul language



Really, who can argue with that?

The UN Arms Trade Treaty has an exception that reads:

The States Parties to this Treaty, Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations...Reaffirming the sovereign right of any State to regulate and control conventional arms exclusively within its territory, pursuant to its own legal or constitutional system...

http://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2013/04/20130410 12-01 PM/Ch_XXVI_08.pdf#page=21

So whats the problem with the UN Arms Trade Treaty? Well....nothing really...unless you're NRA former nutjob LaPierre....

"I am here to announce NRA's strong opposition to anti-freedom policies that disregard American citizens right to self-defense," said LaPierre during UN testimony on the treaty last year. "We will not stand idly by while international organizations, whether state-based or stateless, attempt to undermine the fundamental liberties our men and women in uniform have fought so bravely to preserve...and on which our entire American system of government is based".

After his testimony to the UN, LaPierre told reporters outside the UN building: "We are not gonna let our great American freedoms be reduced to some global lowest common denominator," he bravely explained. "We are not gonna submit American freedoms to these globalist vultures that will reduce American freedom to a hollow shell. We are not gonna let that happen, we are gonna fight it and we're gonna defeat it."

LaPierre went on FoxNews to tell people that the proposed treaty "says to people in the United States 'turn over your personal protection and your firearms to the government'."

The BRAD BLOG : Caving To NRA Lies, Obama Administration Backs Away from UN Small Arms Trade Treaty

Well, now we know where Police Chief Kessler gets his information from because he sure didn't bother to read what the UN Arms Trade Treaty really said. Unfortunately, thanks to the NRA's lying propaganda, neither did congress because they didn't ratify the treaty. Oh but never fear, because as long as someone like Chief Kessler is on "dudy" or is it "doody" and swallowing NRA propaganda hook line and sinker, we needn't ever worry about "despotic regimes, human rights abusers, warlords, pirates and drug lords around the world." Because he and thousands just like him all over rural America have got us covered.

The treaty amounts to requiring gun registration and tracking of all imported small arms to the "end user".

"Anti-gun treaty proponents continue to mislead the public, claiming the treaty would have no impact on American gun owners. That's a bald-faced lie. For example, the most recent draft treaty includes export/import controls that would require officials in an importing country to collect information on the 'end user' of a firearm, keep the information for 20 years, and provide the information to the country from which the gun was exported. In other words, if you bought a Beretta shotgun, you would be an 'end user' and the U.S. government would have to keep a record of you and notify the Italian government about your purchase. That is gun registration. If the U.S. refuses to implement this data collection on law-abiding American gun owners, other nations might be required to ban the export of firearms to the U.S."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Trade_Treaty

 

[Moot]

The treaty amounts to requiring gun registration and tracking of all imported small arms to the "end user".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Trade_Treaty

You're quoting the lobbying arm of the NRA? Really? Can you show me exactly where in the Arms Trade Treaty where it says that? Here's the link....


http://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2013/04/20130410 12-01 PM/Ch_XXVI_08.pdf#page=21

 

[Simon W. Moon]

The treaty amounts to requiring gun registration and tracking of all imported small arms to the "end user".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Trade_Treaty

That was a comment on a daft. idk what else was in the draft.
What was actually passed contains this language:
http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/docs/ATT_text_(As_adopted_by_the_GA)-E.pdf

Underlining the need to prevent and eradicate the illicit trade in conventional​

arms and to prevent their diversion to the illicit market, or for unauthorized end use​

and end users, including in the commission of terrorist acts,
​

Article 8​

Import​

1. Each importing State Party shall take measures to ensure that appropriate and​

relevant information is provided, upon request, pursuant to its national laws, to the​

exporting State Party, to assist the exporting State Party in conducting its national​

export assessment under Article 7. Such measures may include end use or end user​

documentation.
​

3. Each State Party is encouraged to include in those records: the quantity, value,​

model/type, authorized international transfers of conventional arms covered under​

Article 2 (1), conventional arms actually transferred, details of exporting State(s),​

importing State(s), transit and trans-shipment State(s), and end users, as appropriate.​

It seems that our federal law against a gun registry is more than sufficient.

 

[ttwtt78640]

You're quoting the lobbying arm of the NRA? Really? Can you show me exactly where in the Arms Trade Treaty where it says that? Here's the link....


http://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2013/04/20130410 12-01 PM/Ch_XXVI_08.pdf#page=21

That link is virtually worthless to me as I am unable to even search for the word trace in it, much less to use normal copy/paste to extract quotes from it. See page 23 that clearly states that guns "used for illicit purposes" must be tracable. I am fairly sure that more detail exists within it but, as I have no way to do an automated search, I will let you examine your supplied (worthless?) link on your own.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That was a comment on a daft. idk what else was in the draft.
What was actually passed contains this language:
http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/docs/ATT_text_(As_adopted_by_the_GA)-E.pdf

Underlining the need to prevent and eradicate the illicit trade in conventional​

arms and to prevent their diversion to the illicit market, or for unauthorized end use​

and end users, including in the commission of terrorist acts,
​

Article 8​

Import​

1. Each importing State Party shall take measures to ensure that appropriate and​

relevant information is provided, upon request, pursuant to its national laws, to the​

exporting State Party, to assist the exporting State Party in conducting its national​

export assessment under Article 7. Such measures may include end use or end user​

documentation.
​

3. Each State Party is encouraged to include in those records: the quantity, value,​

model/type, authorized international transfers of conventional arms covered under​

Article 2 (1), conventional arms actually transferred, details of exporting State(s),​

importing State(s), transit and trans-shipment State(s), and end users, as appropriate.​

It seems that our federal law against a gun registry is more than sufficient.

So it is a treaty entirely without meaning or any affect so we should simply sign and ignore it? Surely you recognize that other nations will make all sorts of "compliance demands" on nations that actually sign it. One of its stated purposes is to make the nation of manufacture of a small arm (that is exported) "responsible" for any harm done by the end user of that gun. We, as a nation, do not need any outside "encouragement" to register our guns.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

So it is a treaty entirely without meaning or any affect...

I don't know that this is the case. I suspect that the treaty does have meanings and effects. But, more to the point, I have not said anything about whether or not the treaty has meanings or effects. I just pointed out that the objections raised in the quoted text taken from wikipedia did not apply to the actual treaty and that the actual treaty did not create or force anything like a gun registry in the US.

...so we should simply sign and ignore it?

If, as you maintained in the first part of this sentence, the treaty is meaningless and w/o effect, how could we even tell if we were ignoring it? [rhetorical]

Surely you recognize that other nations will make all sorts of "compliance demands" on nations that actually sign it.

What about compliance would be problematic?

One of its stated purposes is to make the nation of manufacture of a small arm (that is exported) "responsible" for any harm done by the end user of that gun.

Article 1 Object and Purpose
The object of this Treaty is to:
– Establish the highest possible common international standards for regulating or
improving the regulation of the international trade in conventional arms;
– Prevent and eradicate the illicit trade in conventional arms and prevent their
diversion;
for the purpose of:
– Contributing to international and regional peace, security and stability;
– Reducing human suffering;
– Promoting cooperation, transparency and responsible action by States Parties
in the international trade in conventional arms, thereby building confidence
among States Parties.​

:shrug:

 

[apdst]

Warning: thread videos contain foul language



Really, who can argue with that?

The UN Arms Trade Treaty has an exception that reads:

The States Parties to this Treaty, Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations...Reaffirming the sovereign right of any State to regulate and control conventional arms exclusively within its territory, pursuant to its own legal or constitutional system...

http://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2013/04/20130410 12-01 PM/Ch_XXVI_08.pdf#page=21

So whats the problem with the UN Arms Trade Treaty? Well....nothing really...unless you're NRA former nutjob LaPierre....

"I am here to announce NRA's strong opposition to anti-freedom policies that disregard American citizens right to self-defense," said LaPierre during UN testimony on the treaty last year. "We will not stand idly by while international organizations, whether state-based or stateless, attempt to undermine the fundamental liberties our men and women in uniform have fought so bravely to preserve...and on which our entire American system of government is based".

After his testimony to the UN, LaPierre told reporters outside the UN building: "We are not gonna let our great American freedoms be reduced to some global lowest common denominator," he bravely explained. "We are not gonna submit American freedoms to these globalist vultures that will reduce American freedom to a hollow shell. We are not gonna let that happen, we are gonna fight it and we're gonna defeat it."

LaPierre went on FoxNews to tell people that the proposed treaty "says to people in the United States 'turn over your personal protection and your firearms to the government'."

The BRAD BLOG : Caving To NRA Lies, Obama Administration Backs Away from UN Small Arms Trade Treaty

Well, now we know where Police Chief Kessler gets his information from because he sure didn't bother to read what the UN Arms Trade Treaty really said. Unfortunately, thanks to the NRA's lying propaganda, neither did congress because they didn't ratify the treaty. Oh but never fear, because as long as someone like Chief Kessler is on "dudy" or is it "doody" and swallowing NRA propaganda hook line and sinker, we needn't ever worry about "despotic regimes, human rights abusers, warlords, pirates and drug lords around the world." Because he and thousands just like him all over rural America have got us covered.

No chance of misinterpretation there!

In international terms, this treaty will do nothing except keeps wrapons out of the hands of the good guys.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I don't. I just think he's a local yocal with more guns than brains and is easily manipulated by NRA propaganda. Problem is there are thousands if not millions more just like him all over the country and worse yet, they're getting into positions of power and authority and that's scary.

Or he could be a man worried about his country and the rights of its citizens.
The UN has no athority to enforce anything in this country, thats why it failed. Just like all of Obama's gun control plans.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

In international terms, this treaty will do nothing except keeps wrapons out of the hands of the good guys.

Which text in the treaty will keep weapons from "the good guys"?

Or he could be a man worried about his country and the rights of its citizens.

I suspect that you are right. Based on what he posted, I suspect he's also someone who has not read the treaty.

 

[Black Dog]

It's just more feel good crap that we don't need to be a part of as we already have similar laws. Why don't we just enforce those instead of selling weapons to the drug cartels and known terrorist groups?

 

[ocean515]

Warning: thread videos contain foul language



Really, who can argue with that?

The UN Arms Trade Treaty has an exception that reads:

The States Parties to this Treaty, Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations...Reaffirming the sovereign right of any State to regulate and control conventional arms exclusively within its territory, pursuant to its own legal or constitutional system...

http://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2013/04/20130410 12-01 PM/Ch_XXVI_08.pdf#page=21

So whats the problem with the UN Arms Trade Treaty? Well....nothing really...unless you're NRA former nutjob LaPierre....

"I am here to announce NRA's strong opposition to anti-freedom policies that disregard American citizens right to self-defense," said LaPierre during UN testimony on the treaty last year. "We will not stand idly by while international organizations, whether state-based or stateless, attempt to undermine the fundamental liberties our men and women in uniform have fought so bravely to preserve...and on which our entire American system of government is based".

After his testimony to the UN, LaPierre told reporters outside the UN building: "We are not gonna let our great American freedoms be reduced to some global lowest common denominator," he bravely explained. "We are not gonna submit American freedoms to these globalist vultures that will reduce American freedom to a hollow shell. We are not gonna let that happen, we are gonna fight it and we're gonna defeat it."

LaPierre went on FoxNews to tell people that the proposed treaty "says to people in the United States 'turn over your personal protection and your firearms to the government'."

The BRAD BLOG : Caving To NRA Lies, Obama Administration Backs Away from UN Small Arms Trade Treaty

Well, now we know where Police Chief Kessler gets his information from because he sure didn't bother to read what the UN Arms Trade Treaty really said. Unfortunately, thanks to the NRA's lying propaganda, neither did congress because they didn't ratify the treaty. Oh but never fear, because as long as someone like Chief Kessler is on "dudy" or is it "doody" and swallowing NRA propaganda hook line and sinker, we needn't ever worry about "despotic regimes, human rights abusers, warlords, pirates and drug lords around the world." Because he and thousands just like him all over rural America have got us covered.

So what is the problem the UN Treaty is trying to resolve, and how does it do so?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

So what is the problem the UN Treaty is trying to resolve, and how does it do so?

As previously quoted in this thread...

http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/docs/ATT_text_(As_adopted_by_the_GA)-E.pdf

Article 1
Object and Purpose
The object of this Treaty is to:
– Establish the highest possible common international standards for regulating or
improving the regulation of the international trade in conventional arms;
– Prevent and eradicate the illicit trade in conventional arms and prevent their
diversion;
for the purpose of:
– Contributing to international and regional peace, security and stability;
– Reducing human suffering;
– Promoting cooperation, transparency and responsible action by States Parties
in the international trade in conventional arms, thereby building confidence
among States Parties​

Fwiw, there are more details at the link.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I suspect that you are right. Based on what he posted, I suspect he's also someone who has not read the treaty.

Once treaties, laws, legislation's are passed. Thats a foothold. From that point they can be expanded many times with no vote or influence from the citizens of this country.

 

[Surtr]

So whats the problem with the UN Arms Trade Treaty?

The purpose of this is to enforce laws that keep arms out of the wrong hands. Wrong hands being war lords, terrorists, genocidal regimes, etc. My only problem with it is that I have serious doubts that it can be successfully enforced.

 

[Moot]

The purpose of this is to enforce laws that keep arms out of the wrong hands. Wrong hands being war lords, terrorists, genocidal regimes, etc. My only problem with it is that I have serious doubts that it can be successfully enforced.

One thing is for sure, it won't be enforced at all by the US at all, thanks to NRA lobbying efforts and a brain dead congress. Apparently, there is too much money to made selling arms to genocidal regimes, war lords, drug cartels, pirates and terrorists.

 

[American]

An this treaty is attempting to solve what problem?

 

[TurtleDude]

One thing is for sure, it won't be enforced at all by the US at all, thanks to NRA lobbying efforts and a brain dead congress. Apparently, there is too much money to made selling arms to genocidal regimes, war lords, drug cartels, pirates and terrorists.

that again is another really stupid comment. how many war lords, genocidal regimes and pirates do we have operating in the USA?

you would happily piss away our rights and claim that its to prevent another Pol Pot from getting real machine guns when all along, its destroying the rights of people who don't buy into your far leftist anti male, anti conservative agenda