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Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews stage mass protest

So there aren't moderate muslims? That's an interesting point of view

Never said it.
It's just that moderate is a relative word.
If those Jews were Muslims, they would be regarded to as moderates.
 
What do you think about "men only" busses (or the separation of men and women in public transportation in general), or the separation of sepharads and ashkenazi in schools? Do you think it is a good thing?

Did you skip on my first comment here because it was too long, bub?
 
Did you skip on my first comment here because it was too long, bub?

of course I did. I just read quickly, and it seems you do not give your opinion, you just give the argument of both parts.
 
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Never said it.
It's just that moderate is a relative word.
If those Jews were Muslims, they would be regarded to as moderates.

It's not "moderate" to segregate people
 
It's not "moderate" to segregate people

Not in Israel it ain't.
That's why they're regarded to as extremists, after all.
 
What do you think about "men only" busses (or the separation of men and women in public transportation in general), or the separation of sepharads and ashkenazi in schools? Do you think it is a good thing?
I think it's repulsive, and should be opposed.
 
I think it's repulsive, and should be opposed.

Very true.

"They stage regular, and often violent, protests to stop building work in areas they deem ancient burial sites, to prevent government officials entering their communities, to stop firms and public institutions opening on the sabbath, and to enforce separation between men and women on public buses passing though their communities".


"Friction between the courts and the haredim has been growing on a number of fronts, including recent rulings that remove an exemption from military service enjoyed by most ultra-Orthodox men and that end special income benefits that allow 10,000 young men to study the Bible without working.


Ultra-Orthodox Jews clash with Israeli courts over segregation - The National Newspaper

Men seem to enjoy very special treatment. Very worrying indeed, extremism has to be met head on irrespective of the guise.

Paul
 
Here we go again. Women were segregated from the demonstration in Bneii Brak that means they did not partake in the 'male' only part of the demonstration. That is not to suggest women didn't lead a different demonstration, or were part of some off-shoot.

Paul

Paul, Apo. I didn't start this thread to revisit Islam-Israel back-and-forth. This isn't about Islam, there are plenty of other threads for that. Of course you can continue the sparring, but it would be more interesting to understand more about these ultra-Orthodox groups which appear to be growing into both a significant part of the Israeli population, but which also reject the authority of the secular state.

What will happen when this group constitutes close to a majority of the electorate?
 
It's not "moderate" to segregate people

In reguler schools they don't get segregated, and in no other public place are they forced to either. There is no Law that forces it. Which is a main differnece of many other arab nations around the globe that have laws that are infact against Human/Women's rights.

In the USA they got the KKK what they support is not moderate...I guess all white people are like that aswell..Stop generalazying ( spelll faiill)

just like the KKK are allowed to have their way of life, the Ultra orthadox are allowed here. And there are many cases where they dont get what they want.

Ofcorse with religious people it can become troublesome, but like with the KKK and Neo-Nazi party. They are allowed to have these protests cause this is a Democracy.

So Unless you want us to lift everyone's Democratic rights...I would rethink that position :)
 
Paul, Apo. I didn't start this thread to revisit Islam-Israel back-and-forth. This isn't about Islam, there are plenty of other threads for that. Of course you can continue the sparring, but it would be more interesting to understand more about these ultra-Orthodox groups which appear to be growing into both a significant part of the Israeli population, but which also reject the authority of the secular state.

What will happen when this group constitutes close to a majority of the electorate?

That is the big issue here. We dont know.
And It is scary. More than likely they wont manage to take over the government. Seeming as they spend all their lifes studying the tohra.

But indeed it is an issue that has no clear answer.
 
Paul, Apo. I didn't start this thread to revisit Islam-Israel back-and-forth. This isn't about Islam, there are plenty of other threads for that. Of course you can continue the sparring, but it would be more interesting to understand more about these ultra-Orthodox groups which appear to be growing into both a significant part of the Israeli population, but which also reject the authority of the secular state.

What will happen when this group constitutes close to a majority of the electorate?

My apologies.

Looking at it from a different perspective it must be quite a social economic burden with so many partaking in religious study only.

Paul:)
 
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My apologies.

Looking at it from a different perspective it must be quite a social economic burden with so many partaking in religious study only.

Paul:)

Not having a go, Paul, just trying to keep on topic. It IS interesting and must be disquieting and frustrating for those who do their military service (which in Israel must be NO breeze) and pay their taxes to support what could be seen as 30% of the population free-loading.
 
Metro - Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews stage mass protests against religious school integration ruling

Can any of our Israeli posters explain this demo to us? There are a few things I don't understand:
  1. Why do they object to their daughters being educated with other Jewish girls not of European descent?
  2. Why are they exempt military service?
  3. What does it mean that the reject the Zionist state?
  4. Why are they exempt from paying taxes?
Is this a serious challenge to the authority of the secular Israeli state? A demo of 100,000 in a nation of 6 million is a BIG demo. What does this mean for the Bibi government?

Sorry for coming in late,
The conflict between the orthodox population and the goverment is poping out every few months in Israel. Apoc explained the status quo but I do not believe freedom of religion is something the citizens of Israel enjoy and I would like to see his source for this. As far as I know Israel recognizes only 3 religions, Judaisem (orthodox and conservative only, reforms are not included), Islam and Christianity. You cannot make up your own religion where you belive that trees are servents of god and we must water them twice a day inorder to reach heaven - you CAN believe that but the goverment will not recognize the institutes of your religion and help you with burial ceramonies or marrige for example as your religion demands. So no freedom of religion from one side but not a Theocracy from the other side, something in between. Supreme court uses the basic law of "Human Dignity and Liberty" many times to make its rulings when it comes to religious matters. This is why the rest of the basic laws which were supposed to be a foundation to a constitution were not passed, the religious parties saw that the Supreme Court interprets the laws in a manner they do not agree with so they stopped supporting the legistlation.

We have a major flaw in our political system where small minor parties like Yehadut Ha'Tora who represent the Ashkenazi orthodox population and Shas who represent the Sfaradi orthodox population are grabbing each goverment by the balls. The only party in our Knesset that tries to combat the religious coercion of those parties is Meretz, and while most Israelies would like to see a more secular and socialist Israel they will not vote to Meretz because they have on their list people who demonstrated very unpopular line when it comes to the conflict with the Palestinians. I for once would have given them my vote last elections if they didn't have someone like Zehava Gal'on in their list.

As far as Zionisem goes in the Orthodox population, its not correct to say they reject the Zionist state, only a small minority does, but it is true that most of them are exempt from military service and go to Yeshiva - they believe that by doing so they are protecting the Jewish people because along side with a strong army we need god's help by studying the Tora and follow his laws. Just to make it clear Emanuel by the is a settlement in the west bank.

Bub,
For your information extreme force was used against the demonstrators in Jerusalem a few months ago when the mayor of Jerusalem decided to open a parking lot in Sabbat, back then their demonstrations were violent and looked like the demonstrations in Naalin and the police's reaction was pretty much the same. In general the police doesn't use live ammo in demonstrations since the incidents of October 2000, they use tear gas, rubber bullets and clubs.
As far as the comparison to Taliban - although there are similarities they do not use terror to make those outrages discriminations between men and women, the women doesn't feel like they are being descriminated and support the seperation as strange as it sounds. The problem raises when a secular woman wants to go on this bus but those lines are found in places where only orthodox jews will use them.
 
The term Ultra-Orthodox is really misleading, since that term would apply to most of the Chasidic Orthodox in Israel, some of whom serve in the military, have businesses, work, etc. [I am a reform Jew, my children are Orthodx, born in California, but live in Israel.] Since my children fall in that category I know of what I speak. The problem with the term Ultra-Orthocox is that there are Orthodox in the military. The military does not really want them because of their religious rituals which are a pain. The issue of ethnic segregation is a phony issue and the Israeli Supreme Court knows it. There are Sephardic girls who are willing to follow the more rigid Askenazic rules and that is not a problem. The problem is really a religious practice problem and the Court should have stayed out of it. The Neturei Karta represents a very small group of Jews (far less than one percent and that is too many). The tax exemption for religous practices exists in the United States. All of the property owned by Churches, Mosques and Synagogues used for religious practices is exempt from taxes. Finally: "If there is a fork in the road, take it. Yogi Berra
 
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Welcome aboard Aharon.
 
The comments by Paul make it appears that Orthodox Jews in Isreal and Orthodox Muslims are the same: Let's count the differences. (1) Orthodox can leave the fold any time they want If they convert to Christianity, they do not believe it is proper to kill them. Muslims believe it is proper to kills converts that leave the Muslim religion. (2) If an Orthodox woman want to marry a non-Orthodox man, unlike Orthodox Muslims', Jews do not participate in honor killings and kill their daughters for not honoring their mother and father. (3) Orthodox Jews do not train their children to wear bombs and blow up people. (4) Orthodox Jews do not have massive campaigns to kill non-Jews if they refuse to convert to Judaism (5) Orthodox Jews do not attack, kill or imprison gays. (6) Orthodox Jews do not believe they have an obligation to control the world in the name of the Jewish God, in fact they believe that all can got to heaven if they follow certain laws in the Torah (which Christians and Moslems, among others, do). (7) The Torah was first in the ancient world in providing women equal rights to inherit land, establishing the first laws in treating women equally. That traditions has been adopted by the Western world.
 
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I believe that it is really important to focus on what is real.
 
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