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Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews stage mass protest

Andalublue

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Metro - Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews stage mass protests against religious school integration ruling

Can any of our Israeli posters explain this demo to us? There are a few things I don't understand:
  1. Why do they object to their daughters being educated with other Jewish girls not of European descent?
  2. Why are they exempt military service?
  3. What does it mean that the reject the Zionist state?
  4. Why are they exempt from paying taxes?
Is this a serious challenge to the authority of the secular Israeli state? A demo of 100,000 in a nation of 6 million is a BIG demo. What does this mean for the Bibi government?
 

Red_Dave

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Because "To suddenly put them in an open-minded place is not good for them," dont cha know ;)
 

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Because "To suddenly put them in an open-minded place is not good for them," dont cha know ;)
I couldn't believe that they put that bit in as well!

However I would like to know more about these people and what motivates them. Presumably they are of European descent but they apparently don't believe in Zionism so I imagine they are they ones who I have seen protesting the Gaza war and so on.

But that line was brilliant
"To suddenly put them in an open-minded place is not good for them," she said.
Possibly a poor translation.
 
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Apocalypse

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Metro - Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews stage mass protests against religious school integration ruling

Can any of our Israeli posters explain this demo to us? There are a few things I don't understand:
  1. Why do they object to their daughters being educated with other Jewish girls not of European descent?
  2. Why are they exempt military service?
  3. What does it mean that the reject the Zionist state?
  4. Why are they exempt from paying taxes?
Is this a serious challenge to the authority of the secular Israeli state? A demo of 100,000 in a nation of 6 million is a BIG demo. What does this mean for the Bibi government?
Quite complicated.

Sephardi Judaism and Ashkenazi Judaism are two different flows in Judaism.
The parents of the female students of the orthodox Emanuel school's hassidic class do not want their daughters to learn together with Sephardi students, claiming the separation to be religiously motivated.
The parents of the Sephardi students have complained about the abuse of their daughters by the Ashkenazi students. Racial slurs, isolation, etc.
The Israeli supreme court has stated in a court ruling on the case that the separation is done on an ethnic basis, not a religious one, and is hence an ethnic discrimination, racism. It has stated in that ruling that the separation must be stopped.

That has created a huge outrage amongst the ultra-Orthodox(Haredim) population, that have seen this as a violation of the status quo agreement, which goes all the way back to September 47', when Ben-Gurion, leading the Mapai (Labor) party has signed on an agreement with the Orthodox population of the land on the religious status of the to-be-established Jewish state.
In that status-quo agreement, the state of Israel would be a non-theocratic secular state with the freedom of religion, its official day of rest being Saturday (Shabbat), Kosher food in state provided kitchens, an above all, an autonomy given to Jewish religious courts on the subjects of marriage and divorce(And family affairs in general), and also an autonomy given to each sector in Judaism to manage its own religious education system.
The part of the status quo that the ultra-Orthodox see as violated is the last, the autonomy given to them to manage their own religious education systems.

So the Orthodox parents, backed by their communities and rabbis, have decided to object to the Supreme Court's ruling, and have really angered the judges who have in return declared this as a threat to the authority of the democratic institutions.
They have hence decided to send the ultra-Orthodox parents who are refusing to comply with the court ruling to jail for 14 days (two weeks) as punishment.
This has only added fuel to the flames and has resulted in the massive protests that we've seen here two days ago, where it seems like pretty much every single Orthodox person in the land has taken part in that 'demonstration of power' by the Orthodox population.
They've called the Israeli supreme court a fascist institute, claiming that the separation is part of their religious freedom, but have mainly avoided from violence. (Which could be seen more than occasionally on previous Orthodox demonstrations)

So now the Orthodox school parents are in jail, and there are some religious tensions, but there is absolutely no threat at all to the authority of the secular state or that of the democratic institutions.

Now to your questions 2,3,4:

2) They go to their "Yeshivas" instead. Those are advanced Jewish schools. Sort of like a college for religion.
Some of them do decide to volunteer to the military (very few), but the rest object to it.
Either because they object to the existence of the state(from religious motives), or because they find the IDF's 'kosherness' to be lacking. The military doesn't allow you to pray whenever you want to and stuff like that.

3) Some of them object to the Zionist idea, either because the state that was formed (Israel) was a secular state, and not a religious-Jewish one, or because they believe that the Jews should have waited for the Messiah before returning to Zion (Jerusalem/Israel).

The extremist group known as Neturei Karta, is the representative of such opinions amongst the ultra-Orthodox population.
They believe that the creation of Israel was a sin to Judaism, and are hence opposing it on every front.
The backwards idiots also deny the holocaust and refuse to honor the victims of the holocaust in the Israeli holocaust remembrance day, and they also refuse to honor the fallen Israeli soldiers in the Israeli memorial day, not standing still during the siren like everyone else. (Some of them are even dancing in the streets during that time)

Neturei Karta also support Iran and have good relations with the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

4) It's another ridiculous agreement reached with them. They're exempt from paying taxes, and are having a lot of babies in return, but what good is that when those babies when grown up, just like them, refuse to do their service to the country and refuse to even work?
A huge percentage of the ultra-Orthodox population in Israel doesn't even work, and hence has zero support for the Israeli economy.

And by the way, there are over 7.5 million people in Israel, not 6 million.
 

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What stands out for me is the similarities in all 'extremist' rhetoric. Statements like,

"we only follow the rules of God. The Torah is above all government".

Substitute Torah with Bible or Koran- same rhetoric different perspective.

Whats also slightly disturbing is the suggestion Jerusalem's ultra orthodox population has swollen to a 'third' of the population.

Paul
 

bub

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Metro - Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews stage mass protests against religious school integration ruling

Can any of our Israeli posters explain this demo to us? There are a few things I don't understand:
  1. Why do they object to their daughters being educated with other Jewish girls not of European descent?
  2. Why are they exempt military service?
  3. What does it mean that the reject the Zionist state?
  4. Why are they exempt from paying taxes?
Is this a serious challenge to the authority of the secular Israeli state? A demo of 100,000 in a nation of 6 million is a BIG demo. What does this mean for the Bibi government?
They look like jewish talibans. I heard there were also busses "for orthodox jews only", with the women sitting in the back of the bus only.

I wonder how many were shot during the demonstration.
 
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Apocalypse

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They look like jewish talibans.
They look like the Jewish version of the average Muslim, rather than the Taliban.
Although they do get called "Talibans" occasionally by the secular population.
I wonder how many were shot during the demonstration.
Why would there be shootings? That was an extremely civil demonstration. :doh
 

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Its easy.
Religion: (n) ( adj) ( ****ed up occurrence that infact is based and wants to cause as much BS crazy irrational decisions that make no sense and often contradicts themselves.) Uh..yesh ^_^

and what Apocalypse said he explained it amazingly well :)

And yes this is the big issue in israel tbh
The battle between the ultra and the regular person. The regular person gets all his Democratic rights. But yeah :)
 

gunner

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They look like jewish talibans. I heard there were also busses "for orthodox jews only", with the women sitting in the back of the bus only.

I wonder how many were shot during the demonstration.
It was also a 'male' only demonstration.

Paul
 

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They look like jewish talibans. I heard there were also busses "for orthodox jews only", with the women sitting in the back of the bus only.

.

Except, of course, for the fact that the politically correct Europeans allow themselves to criticize them instead of falling back to the typical knee jerk defense were they Islamic instead of Jewish.
 

Apocalypse

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It was also a 'male' only demonstration.

Paul
Actually the women have demonstrated as well, they've just seperated themselves from the large male demonstrating group.
 

gunner

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Actually the women have demonstrated as well, they've just seperated themselves from the large male demonstrating group.
As i said, it was a 'male' only demonstration.

Paul
 

Apocalypse

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As i said, it was a 'male' only demonstration.

Paul
Perhaps you could explain your statement with supportive arguments instead of just saying "it was a male only demonstration"?
As I've explained to you a moment ago the demonstration has included both females and males.
 

bub

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They look like the Jewish version of the average Muslim, rather than the Taliban.
There are moderate people and extremists everywhere. These ones are the extremist ones, that's why they can be labelled as "Talibans", just like the Israeli moderates seem to do.

Why would there be shootings? That was an extremely civil demonstration
I don't know, maybe they had lethal weapons with them, such as metal sticks or chocolate.
 
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gunner

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Perhaps you could explain your statement with supportive arguments instead of just saying "it was a male only demonstration"?
As I've explained to you a moment ago the demonstration has included both females and males.
You're are trying to apply some kind of 'spin' to my original statement. The demonstration in Bnei Brak did not include women. It was 'a male only demonstration' meaning, the women were segregated from the men. That is not suggesting women did not partake in their own demonstration.

Paul
 

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You're are trying to apply some kind of 'spin' to my original statement. The demonstration in Bnei Brak did not include women. It was 'a male only demonstration' meaning, the women were segregated from the men. That is not suggesting women did not partake in their own demonstration.

Paul
The women were segregated from the men and were taking part in the same demonstration.
Those were not two different demonstrations, just two separated groups demonstrating at the same place.
 

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There are moderate people and extremists everywhere. These ones are the extremist ones, that's why they can be labelled as "Talibans", just like the Israeli moderates seem to do.
Unfortunately that group is as extreme as your average Muslim.
The extremism in the Muslim religion is bigger than that in any other religion, and their moderates are our extremists.
I don't know, maybe they had lethal weapons with them, such as metal sticks or chocolate.
Ah, that kind of shooting.
I thought you were referring to shooting committed by the Orthodox crowd, since there were Israeli soldiers there, and we all know how Israeli soldiers must be shot on sight, that's the way of the peaceful protesters after all. ;)
 

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The women were segregated from the men and were taking part in the same demonstration.
Those were not two different demonstrations, just two separated groups demonstrating at the same place.
Yes, and no doubt the women had to walk a certain amount of paces behind. Strange really, you trying to defend the actions of an extremist faction within Jewish society considering normally, by default, you like to demonise such outward signs of discrimination and subjugation. I wonder why the change of tact?

Paul
 

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Yes, and no doubt the women had to walk a certain amount of paces behind. Strange really, you trying to defend the actions of an extremist faction within Jewish society considering normally, by default, you like to demonise such outward signs of discrimination and subjugation. I wonder why the change of tact?

Paul
You've made a false statement, I've merely corrected you, carry on.
My position on this protest and its background was already stated in my first comment on this thread, but of course you aren't interested with the actual story.
 

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You've made a false statement, I've merely corrected you, carry on.
My position on this protest and its background was already stated in my first comment on this thread, but of course you aren't interested with the actual story.
Here we go again. Women were segregated from the demonstration in Bneii Brak that means they did not partake in the 'male' only part of the demonstration. That is not to suggest women didn't lead a different demonstration, or were part of some off-shoot.

Paul
 

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Here we go again. Women were segregated from the demonstration in Bneii Brak that means they did not partake in the 'male' only part of the demonstration. That is not to suggest women didn't lead a different demonstration, or were part of some off-shoot.

Paul
They did not lead a "different demonstration", they were part of the same demonstration as the men, it was one demonstration.
Being separated into two groups does not mean that the demonstration is being separated into two groups, but that its demonstrators are.
 

gunner

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They did not lead a "different demonstration", they were part of the same demonstration as the men, it was one demonstration.
Being separated into two groups does not mean that the demonstration is being separated into two groups, but that its demonstrators are.
Take a step back, you're confusing yourself.

Demonstration 1

"more than 100,000 ultra orthodox men marched through Jerusalem to show their support"

Demonstration 2

"another demonstration in Bnei Brak near Tel Aviv attracted thousands more"

There are your two demonstrations.

Paul
 

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Take a step back, you're confusing yourself.

Demonstration 1

"more than 100,000 ultra orthodox men marched through Jerusalem to show their support"

Demonstration 2

"another demonstration in Bnei Brak near Tel Aviv attracted thousands more"

There are your two demonstrations.

Paul
Seems like you're the one who was confusing himself.
I never said there was only one demonstration, but in the demonstration we're speaking about there were both men and women in the crowd, and that's a fact (I've seen the demonstration on TV).
Here's a passage from the article by the OP:

Most of the demonstrators were men wearing the long beards and heavy black clothing typical among ultra-Orthodox Jews. "The Supreme Court is fascist," said one poster.
Besides that, the second demonstration was not a female-only demonstration, so your claims for one male demonstration and one female demonstration is inherently wrong.
 

bub

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Unfortunately that group is as extreme as your average Muslim.
The extremism in the Muslim religion is bigger than that in any other religion, and their moderates are our extremists.
So there aren't moderate muslims? That's an interesting point of view
 

bub

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They did not lead a "different demonstration", they were part of the same demonstration as the men, it was one demonstration.
Being separated into two groups does not mean that the demonstration is being separated into two groups, but that its demonstrators are.
Well in fact, I don't see if it is very relevant to know if it was a "men only" demonstration.

What do you think about "men only" busses (or the separation of men and women in public transportation in general), or the separation of sepharads and ashkenazi in schools? Do you think it is a good thing?
 
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