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Ukrainian Pilots Arrive In Poland To Pick Up Donated Fighter Jets

Your quite right that the international order has been challenged many times, as well as has been the sovereignty of many countries. Poland, Hungry, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, etc. come to mind. However, whatever the wisdom of NATO's decision to become entangled in the Balkans (which seemed very unwise to me at the time) your comparison suffers from your lack of knowledge.

Kosovo can request and reason as it likes, it has no relevancy to NATO's decision to assist a victim of naked aggression conducted by a declared enemy of its current members. Nato's actions against Serbian ethnic cleansing had nothing to do turning Serbia into an unwilling EU member or puppet state. The Balkans were already at war between various nations. refugees were spilling over international borders, ethnic cleansing underway, and Serbia was the primary cause. This wasn't remotely comparable to Putin's intentional aggression against a peaceful state, conquest and annexation of territory, and sponsorship of so-called "separatists" as a mercenary force and Russian proxy.

Actually, it's very obvious you are parroting a party line, a rationalization for your antipathy for the west and sympathy for a strongman bully. Yes, about 30 percent of the country use Russian as their first language but about half those are also loyal to a Ukranian state, not Russia.

No, Senator McCarthy - opposing an American empire is not the same as opposing the American nation. The reality is that only one can exist in the end. I would rather see America the nation exist than an American empire.

And the Yan. govt was barely elected

Bill Clinton was barely elected, JFK was barely elected -- does that give those who resent a leader the right to eliminate him and effect regime change?

under his promise to support and sign EU membership, the conclusion of five years of hard negotiations with the EU. Days before he was to sign, he was summoned to meet Putin who then promised to tear up contracts with Eastern Ukranian manufacturers and put hundreds of thousands of Yan. supporters out of work.

Yan. broke his promise, angry voters turned out, the democratic parliament tossed him out, and that was that. The fraud was nominally democratically elected and democratically removed. Putin's blackmail backfired. That should be the end of story.

Hey, Jan 6 had plenty of angry people storming the gates of power too. How come so many of those people deserve to be imprisoned?
Your attitude reeks of double standards and hypocrisy. Do As I Say, But Not As I Do. You want to have you cake and eat it too.

And no, the Russian language was not trying to be outlawed. The law of 2012 was trying to be repealed to return to the prior law, and then a new law made. Ukrainian would be the language used by the State (as already in their constitution) and Russian also used wherever those speakers were greater than 10 percent of the population.

And no, Crimea was not in Russia's hands, it was predominately Russian speaking in population but a part of Ukraine. The Russian naval base was "Guantanamo", Crimea as a whole was Cuba. Putin decided to invade "Cuba" because he wasn't happy with just a base.

Crimea was already in Russian hands, like Guantanamo is in American hands. Cuba would be Ukraine as a whole.

And what do I expect people to do when an agent of a foreign power gains office by fraud? I expect the government to use its power of impeachment to toss the guy out. And, in the context of the people's rage, they did.

No, if you accept Maidan 2014, then you have to accept Jan 6 as legitimate. Otherwise, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too; Hypocritical double standards based on nitpickery and hair-splitting.
 
What makes you think they are working unilaterally?

NATO Secretary General jens Stoltenberg has had to travel to Poland to warn them not to supply warplanes to Ukraine. If Poland violates NATO's directives, then Poland risks invalidating its own membership.
 
NATO Secretary General jens Stoltenberg has had to travel to Poland to warn them not to supply warplanes to Ukraine. If Poland violates NATO's directives, then Poland risks invalidating its own membership.
I doubt anyone is moving in a manner that isn't approved behind the scenes while making public appearances of distance.
 
If you are talking about F4's of Da Nang you might be right, but we aren't talking early days of AIM's anymore. Now the combat is going to be almost entirely BVR. Flying an early vintage Mig-29 against a semi-modern Su-35 that is backed up with an AWAC is a nightmare. He is going to get engaged from 60nmi and ripple fired. That Su is also going to have friends real quick too. Remember those Mig29's that decided to fight F15-C's in 91? How'd they manage? :)
"Despite significant engine reliability concerns, the MiG-29, with a maximum weight of 27 tonnes, appears to perform better at high altitudes than larger fighter planes like as Su-30s. It’s no longer a secret that the MiG-29 outperforms the larger Sukhoi fighters in tough situations."

 
No, Senator McCarthy - opposing an American empire is not the same as opposing the American nation. The reality is that only one can exist in the end. I would rather see America the nation exist than an American empire.
Leading with personal pejorative, followed by hand waving does not merit rebuttal. Pseduo "arguments" are DOA. As you provided no counterfactuals or demonstration of error, my three paragraphs of history stand.

Bill Clinton was barely elected; JFK was barely elected -- does that give those who resent a leader the right to eliminate him and effect regime change?
Irrelevant. Being barely elected is an explanation what contributed to events and being turned out of office by one's own elected parliament to effect regime change is a fact, it is their constitutional right. In America we call that impeachment.

Hey, Jan 6 had plenty of angry people storming the gates of power too. How come so many of those people deserve to be imprisoned?
Your attitude reeks of double standards and hypocrisy. Do As I Say, But Not As I Do. You want to have you cake and eat it too.
Irrelevant. Whatever law the demonstrators broke deserves punishment for the law they broke. That is as true of someone in Euromaidan breaking a window or door of their parliament as it is of someone on 1/6 doing so to Congress. The remainder of your comments are just more unmoored personal characterizations and ranting.

Crimea was already in Russian hands, like Guantanamo is in American hands. Cuba would be Ukraine as a whole.
Obviously, you didn't or can't actually read and comprehend what I wrote. I said, Crimea was NOT in RUSSIA's hands, meaning it WAS NOT under their jurisdiction prior to their invasion. Crimea was a part of the sovereign nation agreed to by treaty, and reaffirmed by the US, UK, and RUSSIA just four years prior to Russia's invasion.

Like Guantanamo, the Russians had a lease that covered a base area and a port, WHICH DID NOT cover most of Crimea. All of Crimea was a part of Ukraine. The Russians decided to take ALL OF IT and annex it.

Any rational and reasonable observer would compare the two bases, and their lease status to a foreign nation. IF the US used that as an excuse to take an extra 10,000 square miles of Cuba (the size of Crimea) and annex it then that is as illegal as what Russia did.

No, if you accept Maidan 2014, then you have to accept Jan 6 as legitimate. Otherwise, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too; Hypocritical double standards based on nitpickery and hair-splitting.
Meaningless drivel. Protest, speech, assembly etc. are fundamental human rights. That part is legitimate. So is putting public pressure on legislators, conducting strikes, etc. The parts that include certain public nuisance, vandalism, and other laws of conduct are not legal.

Most importantly, what is entirely legal is to be impeached, regardless of how much or how little one "accepts" the reality of massive protests. Given his surrender to Putin's blackmail, he earned it.
 
They don't need fighter jets, that would only escalate the response from the Russians.

Stingers and Javelins, and somebody supplying some satellite intel could make for a 40 mile flaming traffic jam into Kiev.
 
This is only going to lead to retaliation from Russia. Is it really a good idea to do this?

There are too many ways the Russians can retaliate. They could supply weapons to states that are hostile to the West.

Since when does Poland get to act unilaterally as a NATO member? Are these the new NATO rules?
Just FYI your defense of Russia is rather pathetic and you should be embarrassed to be having your lips so tightly planted on Putin’s ass
 
Translation? That number comes from American satellite views. What translation did you need?
Are you absolutely sure of that? A lot of misinformation floating around out there. Some via carelessness and some on purpose.

All I know is that is what was said by a reporter that speaks and writes the language. I am only passing on what I read. Take it for what I is.

40 miles is a little hard to believe don't you think?

First reports were 3 miles, then 7, and then 40.
 
This is only going to lead to retaliation from Russia. Is it really a good idea to do this?

There are too many ways the Russians can retaliate. They could supply weapons to states that are hostile to the West.

Since when does Poland get to act unilaterally as a NATO member? Are these the new NATO rules?

Poland isn't fighting, they can give anyone anything they like.

Also, Russia is now shelling population centers. What are they going to do to make that worse? Use harsh language?
 
Are you absolutely sure of that? A lot of misinformation floating around out there. Some via carelessness and some on purpose.

All I know is that is what was said by a reporter that speaks and writes the language. I am only passing on what I read. Take it for what I is.

40 miles is a little hard to believe don't you think?

First reports were 3 miles, then 7, and then 40.
All I can do is say I have no reason to disbelieve the reports.
 
All I can do is say I have no reason to disbelieve the reports.
I'm skeptical regardless of who is saying it during wartime. It's a part of warfare. My ol' man was pressured to inflate enemy body counts in Vietnam. It's used to psych out your enemy and bolster moral and support.

But just to be clear I wish Ukraine the best, and hope they at least make this costly for Russia. Putin is dirty rotten criminal.
 
Apparently NATO doesn't agree. I agree with you but...

If that's the case, America has been in violation since NATO started.

I am trying to think of a nation that America hasn't armed since World War II.
 
If that's the case, America has been in violation since NATO started.

I am trying to think of a nation that America hasn't armed since World War II.
Makes sense to me.
 
This is only going to lead to retaliation from Russia. Is it really a good idea to do this?

There are too many ways the Russians can retaliate. They could supply weapons to states that are hostile to the West.

Since when does Poland get to act unilaterally as a NATO member? Are these the new NATO rules?
Poland can do what they see fit.
And you want to placate a bully. That'll guarantee more bullying.
 
Are you absolutely sure of that? A lot of misinformation floating around out there. Some via carelessness and some on purpose.

All I know is that is what was said by a reporter that speaks and writes the language. I am only passing on what I read. Take it for what I is.

40 miles is a little hard to believe don't you think?

First reports were 3 miles, then 7, and then 40.
The length tells us nothing about the number of vehicles.
 
Here's an excellent read by Fiona Hill and expert on Russian the wrote a book on Putin.

 
Fox News? Won't even bother. And pinhead Gowdy makes me even more unlikely to view it.

Can you sum it up?

Make the effort to watch it, and judge directly for yourself. You might be surprised.
 
There's no definition you can invent where an antitank missile is "technically" defensive while a fighter jet is "technically" offensive.

All weapons are offensive.
I am not inventing this.. that is what countries in NATO have been using. Anti-tank weapons are seen as defensive weapons and have been given to Ukraine because laws in said countries only allow "defensive" weapons to be sold or given away.

Where as tanks and planes have not until now.. and then even not it seems.

Is it weak sauce? Sure, but that is politics for you. Israel sees concrete as weapons and bans/controls who and how much enters Gaza.. it is all bullshit politics in the end.
 
"Despite significant engine reliability concerns, the MiG-29, with a maximum weight of 27 tonnes, appears to perform better at high altitudes than larger fighter planes like as Su-30s. It’s no longer a secret that the MiG-29 outperforms the larger Sukhoi fighters in tough situations."


Again, air to air combat in a dogfighting scenario is not exactly something modern airforces are concerned with. The problem for the Mig is BVR engagement capabilities. It can't use its superior thrust/weight or smaller size when it is dead 30-40 miles out.
 
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