Ukrainian Citizens Have The Right Idea

[DebateChallenge]

 

[Chase Morgan]

Let me have your little guns, 'challenge

If we get invaded by Canada or Mexico this summer, I promise to give them back.

Meanwhile, here's what happened in several of our glorious, gun-lustin' red states last weekend...

https://nypost.com/2022/03/19/arkansas-car-show-mass-shooting-leaves-at-least-10-hurt/

https://nypost.com/2022/03/20/south-by-southwest-festival-shooting-leaves-4-injured/

https://nypost.com/2022/03/20/miami-beach-spring-breakers-stampede-after-shooting-injures-two/


Murr-ca.............................................................................

 

[Manc Skipper]

Stop the silly. You don't fight tanks and supersonic missiles with AK's and molotov cocktails.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Meanwhile, here's what happened in several of our glorious, gun-lustin' red states last weekend...

https://nypost.com/2022/03/19/arkansas-car-show-mass-shooting-leaves-at-least-10-hurt/

https://nypost.com/2022/03/20/south-by-southwest-festival-shooting-leaves-4-injured/

https://nypost.com/2022/03/20/miami-beach-spring-breakers-stampede-after-shooting-injures-two/


Murr-ca.............................................................................

So what? Freedom has a cost. How many people were killed by drunk and reckless drivers last weekend, and why aren't you whining about that?

 

[Rich2018]

They're being issued AK assault rifles by their government, plus anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles.

 

[code1211]

The folks who wrote the Second Amendment were just back from defeating the most powerful country on the planet.

That is why they wrote the Second Amendment.

If they were just back from a nice hunting trip or a day at the shooting range, the morons demanding it be repealed might have a case.

 

[Chomsky]

Yes, this same thought occurred to me several weeks ago! And in principal, I agree.

However, I must take exception with your specific statement:

Yes, the Ukrainian citizens may be using their own weapons. But, much of the substantive defense and damage to the enemy has been done using the weapons of the U.S. Military & and the weapons of militaries of the NATO Alliance countries.

Not many citizens have NLAWS & Javelins leaning up against the corner of the wall of their bedroom closet!

 

[Rich2018]

The folks who wrote the Second Amendment were just back from defeating the most powerful country on the planet.

That is why they wrote the Second Amendment.

If they were just back from a nice hunting trip or a day at the shooting range, the morons demanding it be repealed might have a case.

When militia men could win with jut hunting firearms....

 

[Chomsky]

They're being issued AK assault rifles by their government, plus anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles.

Absolutely, and I agree.

I do agree with the OP's general premise; but there's much more to it than the 2nd A equivalent of citizen weaponry.

 

[Rich2018]

Absolutely, and I agree.

I do agree with the OP's general premise; but there's much more to it than the 2nd A equivalent of citizen weaponry.

I don't agree with it.
People having guns to defeat an invading force doesn't make sense in the USA
And even for countries that it does, eg: the UK, shotguns, pistols and hunting rifles would make zero difference.

 

[Chomsky]

I don't agree with it.
People having guns to defeat an invading force doesn't make sense in the USA
And even for countries that it does, eg: the UK, shotguns, pistols and hunting rifles would make zero difference.

Obviously the situation today is much different than in 1776, in terms of the efficacy of armed citizen deterrent.

However, I do believe our having an armed citizenry still represents an additional deterrent to invasion, above our military deterrent. And, it also implies our country will never be occupied.

 

[Rich2018]

Obviously the situation today is much different than in 1776, in terms of the efficacy of armed citizen deterrent.

However, I do believe our having an armed citizenry still represents an additional deterrent to invasion, above our military deterrent. And, it also implies our country will never be occupied.

No, an armed citizenry offers no deterrent to invasion

If a hostile power wants to invade, it will do. How many guns the people have will make no difference

If Iraqis each had an AK-47 at home, do you really think the US led invasion of Iraq would never have happened ?

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah, as we all know, it was TOTALLY meant to hold off a Russian invasion 🙄

I do find it amusing that the actual Ukrainian Army, which, you know, are the ones doing the bulk of the fighting and dying, have been regulated to the backdrop.

 

[Chomsky]

No, an armed citizenry offers no deterrent to invasion

If a hostile power wants to invade, it will do. How many guns the people have will make no difference

If Iraqis each had an AK-47 at home, do you really think the US led invasion of Iraq would never have happened ?

I don't see how you can make these blanket statements, as if they are black & white fact.

Of course an armed populace is a deterrent. It may be fair to debate the degree of deterrence, but there is a component of it.

Invasion's lead to occupancy, and an armed citizenry will be much more difficult to occupy. That's part of the calculus in deciding to invade.

In your Iraq example we saw what a little-armed populace was able to do to our attempts to hold the country.
Ditto for Afghanistan.

I carefully chose the term, 'deterrent', in my earlier posts. I believe our armed citizenry is indeed a deterrent, due to it hindering our ability to be occupied, therefore affecting the calculus of deciding to invade us.

--

Unfortunately, I'm running out the door, and won't be available for immediate reply - if you chose to respond. My apologies in advance.

 

[zsu2357]

Stop the silly. You don't fight tanks and supersonic missiles with AK's and molotov cocktails.

You can slow them down. However you CAN stop APCs and ground troops supporting the tanks.

 

[venice_ca]

However, I do believe our having an armed citizenry still represents an additional deterrent to invasion, above our military deterrent. And, it also implies our country will never be occupied.

I firmly believe that the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans are our greatest deterrents to an invasion. An armed citizenry isn’t even a blip on the deterrent radar.

 

[SCrider]

You have no idea about gun laws in the Ukraine do you.

 

[zsu2357]

No, an armed citizenry offers no deterrent to invasion

In England you guys are lucky to rustle up a good set of steak knives.

If a hostile power wants to invade, it will do. How many guns the people have will make no difference

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is the fact you guys handed all your weapons over "for safety".

If Iraqis each had an AK-47 at home, do you really think the US led invasion of Iraq would never have happened ?

Well we just knew they had all these WMDs and it didn't deter us any. 2003 to damn near 2012. We caused a lot of trouble in the way of a power vacuum.

 

[zsu2357]

I firmly believe that the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans are our greatest deterrents to an invasion. An armed citizenry isn’t even a blip on the deterrent radar.

You do realize this is post WW1 hell even WW2?

 

[venice_ca]

You do realize this is post WW1 hell even WW2?

I’m responding to Chomsky’s quote — he mentions invasion of our country.

 

[SCrider]

You do realize this is post WW1 hell even WW2?

Given the weakness of the Russian supply lines for invading their neighbor how do you think they would do crossing an ocean? or rolling through Alaska and Canada to get here?

 

[BlueTex]

Prior to the invasion by Russia, here are the guns laws that were in effect... Want to emulate Ukraine's gun laws before they were invaded?

Handguns are illegal except for target shooting, those who hold concealed carry permits, and handguns awarded for service.[1] Concealed carry licenses are available, but are not normally issued unless a threat to life is present and can be proven.[2]

A license is required to own firearms, and a citizen may be issued a license if that person:

• is 25 years of age for rifle ownership, 21 years of age for smoothbore weapon ownership, 18 years of age for cold or pneumatic weapon ownership;
• has no criminal record;
• has no history of domestic violence;
• has no mental illness or history of mental illness;
• has a good reason (target shooting, hunting, collection).

Once a license is issued, all guns must be kept unloaded and in a safe.

Because of the lack of statutes regarding firearm ownership, authorities have great discretion when giving firearm licenses. The president and ministers often give guns to members of the elite, while making it hard for ordinary people to obtain them. It is estimated that more than 50,000 guns have been issued as presents from authorities.[3]

Gun owners are required by order to renew their licenses and registration of their guns every three years. Failure to comply will result in revocation of the license, as well as confiscation of guns. There is a 10-round magazine limit for rifles.[4]

Gun law in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SCrider]

Prior to the invasion by Russia, here are the guns laws that were in effect... Want to emulate Ukraine's gun laws before they were invaded?

Handguns are illegal except for target shooting, those who hold concealed carry permits, and handguns awarded for service.[1] Concealed carry licenses are available, but are not normally issued unless a threat to life is present and can be proven.[2]

A license is required to own firearms, and a citizen may be issued a license if that person:

• is 25 years of age for rifle ownership, 21 years of age for smoothbore weapon ownership, 18 years of age for cold or pneumatic weapon ownership;
• has no criminal record;
• has no history of domestic violence;
• has no mental illness or history of mental illness;
• has a good reason (target shooting, hunting, collection).

Once a license is issued, all guns must be kept unloaded and in a safe.

Because of the lack of statutes regarding firearm ownership, authorities have great discretion when giving firearm licenses. The president and ministers often give guns to members of the elite, while making it hard for ordinary people to obtain them. It is estimated that more than 50,000 guns have been issued as presents from authorities.[3]

Gun owners are required by order to renew their licenses and registration of their guns every three years. Failure to comply will result in revocation of the license, as well as confiscation of guns. There is a 10-round magazine limit for rifles.[4]

Gun law in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You would think that the OP would want to do some research on the topic before posting anything. Might help starve off some embarrassment.......

 

[Noodlegawd]

I firmly believe that the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans are our greatest deterrents to an invasion. An armed citizenry isn’t even a blip on the deterrent radar.

You realize that there are two countries that have considerable land borders with the United States, don't you?

 

[venice_ca]

You realize that there are two countries that have considerable land borders with the United States, don't you?

And how do their militaries compare to the U.S. military?

We haven’t tried invading Canada since the War of 1812; the result of that invasion discouraged any further incursions into Canada. The Mexican-American War has long since passed into history.

Unless you believe that Canada and/or Mexico are suicidal, no fears from the countries bordering our country on the north and south.