Ukraine Weapons Tracker... Russian Army Especially Generous Today

[OrphanSlug]

The only ones actually purposefully committing war crimes are Ukranians.

And you have what to back this up? (As in exactly what.)

 

[Juin]

Depends. Some civilians are second class civilians, whose language is Russian as opposed to Ukrainian, and who prefer closer relationships with Russia as opposed to EU. The Azov battalion doesn't care for these black legs at all.

That would be counter-productive. The more civilians that are killed, the greater the pressure to surrender. This makes no tactical sense.

I was addressing your assertion earlier that Ukraine won't target its own civilians. Your assertion suggested an internal harmony in Ukraine which is not born out by facts. Ukraine is a deeply fractured country between a heavily ethnic Ukrainian majority to the west and a heavily ethnic Russian minority to the east. Ukrainian nationalists will attack Russian minorities in a heart beat. And vice versa.

Russia is deliberately targeting civilians with long range shelling as a terror tactic to pressure Zelenskyy to surrender and save the lives of Russian soldiers, who by all accounts have lost enough men (10%) to have their combat effectiveness diminished and who have lost enough generals (20%) to have their command impaired.

And how did you establish that it is deliberate. Civilians get caught up in all wars. It is just the terrible Logic of War. I understand the west has coined a nice phrase for it: collateral damage

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I was addressing your assertion earlier that Ukraine won't target its own civilians. Your assertion suggested an internal harmony in Ukraine which is not born out by facts. Ukraine is a deeply fractured country between a heavily ethnic Ukrainian majority to the west and a heavily ethnic Russian minority to the east. Ukrainian nationalists will attack Russian minorities in a heart beat. And vice versa

It doesn’t even need to be that, but militaries are full of “ends justifies the means” type of people and that goes double for organizations like Ukraine’s state security bureau or Azov. The SBU and Azov know they are criminals and will be prosecuted if Russia wins the war, they will do whatever they have to in order to prevent such a thing.

If they feel framing Russians for anti-civilian war crimes will do the trick they will do it. And it’s easier to justify than you think. They can even say “well civilians die the longer the war goes on and if dumb Americans demand a war because a pregnant woman is dead on their TV screens will then I’m saving lives by finding one and killing her”

And how did you establish that it is deliberate. Civilians get caught up in all wars. It is just the terrible Logic of War. I understand the west has coined a nice phrase for it: collateral damage

 

[Rogue Valley]

If they feel framing Russians for anti-civilian war crimes will do the trick they will do it.

Then the international press must be orchestrating your "conspiracy". That is where 98% of the war coverage originates from.

Do you ever go over your posts before submitting, or would doing so provoke a migraine?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

And you have what to back this up? (As in exactly what.)

Well I can give you one indisputable example, the treatment of Russian prisoners of war by the state security bureau. Which even human rights watch has condemned.

And this alone would give the SBU a reason to commit war crimes against Ukrainians if they believe it will lead to more intervention against Russia. Because if Russia wins and arrests members of the SBU, Russia has the legal right under the principle of Universal jurisdiction to try them for war crimes and put them in prison.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Then the international press must be orchestrating your "conspiracy". That is where 98% of the war coverage originates from.

Lol, I mean the international press is basically the propaganda and enlightenment ministry for Zelensky at this moment.

I’ve seen press stories insinuating American journalists were killed by Russians in areas under total control of Ukraine. They won’t admit the trigger happy Ukes (remember, they’re handing out assault rifles to untrained people and telling them Russians are dressing as civilians and journalists) may have killed their own reporters.

The state security bureau killed one of Ukraine’s peace talks delegates and we still don’t have a coherent narrative from Ukraine

Do you ever go over your posts before submitting, or would doing so provoke a migraine?

Personal attack disregarded.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Well I can give you one indisputable example, the treatment of Russian prisoners of war by the state security bureau. Which even human rights watch has condemned.

And this alone would give the SBU a reason to commit war crimes against Ukrainians if they believe it will lead to more intervention against Russia. Because if Russia wins and arrests members of the SBU, Russia has the legal right under the principle of Universal jurisdiction to try them for war crimes and put them in prison.

As reported by exactly who?

(And everyone else, note for the record that @EMNofSeattle is using this as reason to bomb civilians targeting women and kids.)

 

[Rogue Valley]

I’ve seen press stories insinuating American journalists were killed by Russians in areas under total control of Ukraine.

I'll post it.....

Award-winning US journalist Brent Renaud killed in Ukraine: police

Brent Renaud, 51, an award-winning video journalist, was fatally shot when Russian troops opened fire on a car near the Romanivsky Bridge in Irpin, police said.

nypost.com

3.13.22
An award-winning journalist who was a former New York Times contributor has been killed by Russian forces near Kyiv, the region’s head of police said Sunday. Brent Renaud, 51, a video journalist who has also reported for NBC, Vice News and HBO, was fatally shot in the neck when Russian troops opened fire on a car near the Romanivsky Bridge in the Ukraine town of Irpin, police and a witness said. Two other journalists were injured in the attack, too, and taken to the hospital, Nebitov said. One of the hurt journalists was US photographer Juan Arredondo, who has worked for the New York Times and National Geographic, the Guardian reported. “We had crossed the first bridge in Irpin. We were going to film other refugees leaving. We got into a car. Somebody offered to take us to the other bridge,” Arrendondo told the Italian paper Internazionale from his hospital bed. “We crossed a checkpoint, and they started shooting at us. The driver turned around, there were two of us. My friend is Brent Renaud,” he said. PBS reporter Jane Ferguson said she saw Renaud’s body on the side of the road under a blanket. “Ukranian medics could do nothing to help him by that stage,” she wrote on Twitter.

Irpin, a northern suburb of Kyiv, is under no one's control as fighting continues there.

RIP Mr. Renaud

 

[lwf]

You would be horrified at what soldiers would do if given orders, in most cases without question at all, and to the extent some have questions they will still follow them on the belief their superiors have a reason for giving them. Google operation Northwoods, where the CIA and American military drew up plans to commit actual terrorist attacks on Cuban refugees on American soil which would be pinned on the Cuban government and used as war justification.

In addition you are ignoring that soldiers come in several varieties, apolitical Ukrainian conscripts might be less willing to do what politically motivated and ideologically motivated actors, like say ultra nationalist extreme units like Azov are willing to do.



Except Zelensky will not do it and is being funded and armed by outside actors. So Russia has to assume the Ukrainian army will keep fighting as long as it’s not hopeless. And if there’s a hope of European or American intervention then committing civilian atrocities doesn’t benefit Russia.

Russia is the one establishing the humanitarian corridors in the first place. The Russians want to encourage civilians to flee because it reduces chance of civilian deaths and it encourages desertion by defending troops.

Russia doesn’t need to have the corridors at all, much less shell them. In fact Russia could more effectively secure surrenders just by blockading the cities altogether. No heat, no fuel, no internet, no power, no food. Nothing allowed in the area. That would kill many more civilians with far less condemnation than artillery on civilians leaving. Russia has no incentive. Only Ukraine.

Except there is no hope of NATO military intervention. That has already been long established. There will be no NATO troops in the line of fire in this war unless Russia puts them there.

Russia tried the lightning seizure of Ukrainian cities and was pushed back. Now the strategy is to bomb Ukraine into submission. Russia loses nothing by indiscriminately bombing civilians and they gain a serious pressure point for Zelenskyy to surrender. There is zero benefit to Zelenskyy or to Ukraine to kill its own civilians.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Except there is no hope of NATO military intervention. That has already been long established. There will be no NATO troops in the line of fire in this war unless Russia puts them there.

And Ukraine has no choice but to try to rope us in.

Russia tried the lightning seizure of Ukrainian cities and was pushed back.

No they weren’t. The Russians have taken strategic positions around cities and have been tightening the noose, they have not been pushed back

Now the strategy is to bomb Ukraine into submission.

No, it’s not. You’re confusing Russia with Ukraine and how they attacked Donetsk

Russia loses nothing by indiscriminately bombing civilians and they gain a serious pressure point for Zelenskyy to surrender. There is zero benefit to Zelenskyy or to Ukraine to kill its own civilians.

There is great benefit.

In fact given Zelensky ordering the members of parliament representing the East be barred from parliament while banning their parties, it’s obvious he’s going to ramp up atrocities because hes going dictatorial and has less to lose

 

[lwf]

Not true. In fact indiscriminate attacks on civilians tend to harden resolve and in this war might draw military support from uninvolved parties.

Just look at the Germans, the war was lost after the Soviet Bargration offensive, and they fought another year after being subject to round the clock terror bombings from the allies. The Germans didn’t surrender until Hitler and Goebbels shot themselves and Dönitz took over.

If Hitler had listened to his advisors and retreated his forces from Berlin to form a defensive line to the west the Germans could’ve fought on another 3-4 months. Their surrender came only from Hitler’s suicide.


They have not lost 20% of their generals, and I doubt 10 percent of their men either. This is Uke propaganda cope.

No one except gullible Russian civilians would believe that Ukraine is targeting its own civilians. The very idea is absurd. Ukraine gets no benefit from this, Ukrainian soldiers would never do this, and Russia is quite obviously using indiscriminate bombing of civilian corridors in order to terrorize and pressure the Ukrainians to surrender due to its own diminished combat effectiveness. If that doesn't work, it will resort to total depopulation of Ukrainian cities as it did in Chechnya and Syria. Ukraine doesn't have mortars and missiles behind the Russian lines. These are Russians that are targeting kindergartens, hospitals, and theaters.

And yes, Russia is at 90% of its combat capacity that it started with, and the command is at 80%. It isn't just Ukrainians reporting this, and these are conservative figures. There were 20 generals involved when the invasion began. 4 are dead now. That is a 20% reduction in command effectiveness, signaling impaired command. The number of Russian dead number well into the thousands, they've lost more than 1500 tanks, trucks, and mounted equipment, and Russia has launched more than a thousand missiles, putting them at 90% of the combat power they had prior to invasion. This is reduced combat effectiveness. Add to this that there are nowhere near enough troops to hold all of Ukraine's cities, and it's obvious Russia simply wants to pressure Ukraine to surrender and swear that it will never join NATO. (A vow that Putin would have to be a fool to believe.)

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/r...ukraine-a-dreadful-mess-for-putin-01647719435

 

[lwf]

Forget it, you guys are arguing with a Russian apologist. He is literally excusing war crimes.

The Ukrainian war has definitely revealed who the Americans are on this board.

 

[OrphanSlug]

The Ukrainian war has definitely revealed who the Americans are on this board.

I never thought I would see someone claim to be "Very Conservative" and take side with Russia over Ukraine. I am legitimately surprised.

 

[gboisjo]

Well I can give you one indisputable example, the treatment of Russian prisoners of war by the state security bureau. Which even human rights watch has condemned.

And this alone would give the SBU a reason to commit war crimes against Ukrainians if they believe it will lead to more intervention against Russia. Because if Russia wins and arrests members of the SBU, Russia has the legal right under the principle of Universal jurisdiction to try them for war crimes and put them in prison.

You come across as pro Russian, not a popular position in the free world.

Go ahead, continue to cherry pick stories that give Russia credit for its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine where children are being killed for what.

Biden needs to stop telling Putin what he won't do ..it comes across as cowardly and lame.

 

[gboisjo]

I never thought I would see someone claim to be "Very Conservative" and take side with Russia over Ukraine. I am legitimately surprised.

Seeing is ****ing believing!!

 

[gboisjo]

I’ve seen press stories insinuating American journalists were killed by Russians in areas under total control of Ukraine. They won’t admit the trigger happy Ukes (remember, they’re handing out assault rifles to untrained people and telling them Russians are dressing as civilians and journalists) may have killed their own reporters.

Wow, continue to enlighten us about the atrocities Ukraine is committing ..go Putin!!

 

[lwf]

I never thought I would see someone claim to be "Very Conservative" and take side with Russia over Ukraine. I am legitimately surprised.

It's yet more evidence that Trump-era Republicans were fooled by Russian propaganda that was catered specifically to them.




How does one come back from this?

 

[Jredbaron96]

No they weren’t. The Russians have taken strategic positions around cities and have been tightening the noose, they have not been pushed back

In several sectors of the front the Russians have been pushed back, or in many cases both sides are see-sawing back and forth. Thus far three weeks into the invasion the Russians have made only limited progress in encircling major Ukrainian cities.

No, it’s not.

Yes they are. With most of their elite infantry formations badly mauled in the opening few days, and the rest of their motor rifle troops unspectacular, the Russians have fallen back on the tactics they used in Syria, which includes large scale destruction of civilian infrastructure.

 

[Rogue Valley]

No they weren’t. The Russians have taken strategic positions around cities and have been tightening the noose, they have not been pushed back

You are lying again/still

Mayor of Mykolaiv claims Russian forces are being pushed back from city following attack on airport

Ukraine and Russia will hold a third round of talks Monday, according to negotiators as from on the ground in Ukraine as Ukrainian civilians are trapped in the cities of Mariupol, Volnovakha and Kyiv after evacuation efforts failed. Follow here for live news updates from on the ground in Ukraine.

edition.cnn.com

In some areas, Russian forces pushed back 70km from Kyiv - Ministry of Defence

MAZURENKO ALYONA - SATURDAY, MARCH 19, 2022, 19:05Within days, Ukrainian defenders have pushed Russian troops 70 kilometres away from the capital.Source: Oleksandr Motuzyanyk, spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine Quote: “As of now, we have not had any significant changes in the...

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[Roadvirus]

Russia loses nothing by indiscriminately bombing civilians...

Yes it does. Continued global isolation that will irreparably damage the Russian economy.

 

[lwf]

Yes it does. Continued global isolation that will irreparably damage the Russian economy.

I would argue that sanctions would continue even if they weren't indiscriminately bombing civilians.