[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

[JANFU]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just saying the Czechs have a special empathy for the Ukrainians as they have been there done that. I guess nothing was done in fear of a war with the Soviet Union? I also remember Johnson refused to hit the Soviet SAM sites in North Vietnam also in fear of a war with the Soviets. Meanwhile shot down US pilots were either dying or living years in the Hanoi Hilton beaten on an almost daily basis.

I posted that as you are correct about Czechs, Hungary,Poland, have seen Russian interventions when the people revolt.
Just reiterating my point to others, no boots on the ground
I do recall that the US would not bomb bridges on the Yalu river, during the Korean War. These were key logistics points for weapons and such from China/Russia for the same reasons

That said, my money is on private contractors are in Ukraine performing a number of functions

 

[JANFU]

My argument is based on an appreciation of present situation as one with the Russian Airforce dominant over the skies of Ukraine. If that is not the case then Ukraine can receive the planes and quickly set up an Airforce. But I am not inclined to accept that Russia does not dominate the skies of Ukraine. Is it not the Russian dominance of the airspace behind Ukraine's demand for all the planes it can get? In short Ukraine wants the Migs badly, and like yesterday because Russia has the upper hand.





There is an increasing and imperceptible expansion of the war.

Not yet, and lets keep it that way.

 

[Centrist]

This story needs serious confirmation.

Russia has deployed up to 20,000 mercenaries from Syria, Libya and elsewhere in its new offensive in Ukraine’s Donbas region, sent into battle with no heavy equipment or armoured vehicles, according to a European official.

The official said the estimates of mercenary involvement on the ground in eastern Ukraine range from 10,000 to 20,000 and that it was hard to break down that figure between Syrians, Libyans and other fighters recruited by the Russian mercenary company, the Wagner Group.

Russia pitches up to 20,000 mercenaries into battle for Ukraine’s Donbas region

Moscow is luring mercenaries from Syria, Libya and elsewhere in effort to capture as much as possible of eastern Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

 

[Rogue Valley]

Mercenary numbers are notoriously difficult to pin down.

Who knows how many mercs are fighting for Ukraine? Many thousands I would guess, even from Belarus.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I'd rather see it used in rebuilding Ukraine.

So would I but that will not happen until Putin is turned back.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Actually Russian logistics require a rail head within 90 miles (or KM?) from the front. Too few trucks to feed munitions and arms further.

PS: Am right in the middle of reading another Ann Appelbaum book: "Twilight of Democracy and the Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism"
I guess I better read the one in your avatar soon.

 

[Roadvirus]

Missed this on notifications
Russia's if ****ed. Ukraine will be rebuilt.

It'll be a loooooooooooooong time before any major Western company will want to do business with/in Russia again.

 

[Joby]

Not so good news from Mao's Den:

China to increase coordination with Russia, says senior Chinese diplomat

China told Russia it will continue to increase "strategic coordination" with it regardless of international volatility, the foreign ministry said in a statement on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

China will bear no cost whatsoever for supporting Russia in full. On the contrary, I believe they will receive token hand wringing from the West but there will be no serious disengagement in the short term. Simultaneously their growing energy needs will be met with discounted Russian while their industrial competition in Germany will be paying a premium for energy for some time.

I think the Chinese Communists would pay a higher cost domestically for being seen as overly meek in their support of Russia than they will pay for appearing aggressive internationally.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This is framed entirely from the western perspective (which I happily share) but to one looking from the east I imagine it's hard not to laugh at the notion that Russia is attacking inside of Europe and America in such a global showdown. In fact it's obvious that it's the western world that insists the entire world adopts it's own the mindset and, by extension, cultural mores and political systems.

This is true whether it's Moscow or Baghdad or Beijing or Kabul or Mumbai: Western Liberal knows what's best for you! Your history is irrelevant! We have the answer!

I think it's quite plausible that to the generations of Russians who were already adults when they were most "democratic" in the 90s a plurality would call it the worst time Russia had in their memory (the 1940s excepted). I think it's really not too hard to see the attraction of a leader who, even if corrupt themselves, restores the state to the level of making all citizens of that country fear it equally. The alternative of living in a nation where the gangsters scare the czar is simply untenable, as well as being shameful.

That is precisely WHY I put
"we are witnessing what Ann Appelbaum calls "The Twilight of Democracy" as it falls to the "Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism".

I visited Russia both in 1988 and again in 1991, on business with American-Russian Television of West Hollywood

Although I spent most of my time stuck in the Ostankino facilities, I did notice something odd when I spoke to people.
It was as if most of them had expected capitalism and fledgling democracy to solve ALL problems in ........ the next TEN MINUTES.
That's the impression I got.
By the way, most of this was unsolicited, and simply sprang from these people learning that I was an American.

So...tell me...what IS so great ABOUT authoritarianism.
If I am to be taken to task for being overly West biased, (oh and....LIBERAL!!) as you say, then tell me why I should be sympathetic TO the authoritarian view.

 

[Roadvirus]

The Russian army, in terms of personnel, is far larger than the Ukrainian.

But very small on brains.

 

[Joby]

It'll be a loooooooooooooong time before any major Western company will want to do business with/in Russia again.

Unless we ignore the continued purchase of Russian energy by western countries of course.

 

[Roadvirus]

Add Mariupol to that. For the moment Mariupol is the legitimate property of the Russian Federation. It was fairly won

What did Russia win? A city turned into rubble.

 

[Joby]

That is precisely WHY I put
"we are witnessing what Ann Appelbaum calls "The Twilight of Democracy" as it falls to the "Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism".

I visited Russia both in 1988 and again in 1991, on business with American-Russian Television of West Hollywood
View attachment 67386409
Although I spent most of my time stuck in the Ostankino facilities, I did notice something odd when I spoke to people.
It was as if most of them had expected capitalism and fledgling democracy to solve ALL problems in ........ the next TEN MINUTES.
That's the impression I got.
By the way, most of this was unsolicited, and simply sprang from these people learning that I was an American.

I would rather have a dictator in charge than live in a country where different factions battle it out like they did in Iraq.

I would rather have had the US build a state that can defend itself than some liberal do-gooder dream that crumbles as soon as the Taliban arrives.

I would rather have a fascist that is stronger than the criminal gangs that make everyone live in fear of them like much of Mexico or Central America.

The biggest thing democracy did for Russia was let the gangsters piece out the old empire for their own ends. I’d take a Czar over that, no question.

 

[Centrist]

The United States is considering "non-stop" ways to send weapons to Ukraine at an "unprecedented" rate. The process of authorizing the transport of equipment from US military inventories to other countries, which took weeks or months in the past, can currently take only about 48-72 hours, a senior defense official said, CNN reports.

Since the beginning of the Russian invasion, the Biden administration has authorized $ 2.3 billion in shipments of weapons and military equipment to Ukraine from US stocks, as well as $ 300 million as part of the US Security Assistance Initiative. Ukraine (USAI), which means that weapons are purchased from manufacturers.

There is also a risk of the weapons being sent in the long term, below is a discussion:

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

A rules based world order. Not what China/Russia wants

Right...they want a step backwards to "might makes right" and that must be very appealing to fascists
Ergo Russia and American fascists ❤ each other.

 

[Joby]

What did Russia win? A city turned into rubble.

Grozny was rubble a decade ago. Now they’re amongst the most enthusiastic fighting for Russia.

Odd isn’t it? Coming from a “we must win hearts and minds” culture doesn’t make tremendous sense.

Hell, the Russians got the Islamist terrorists they conquered to fight on their side. Maybe We should have done that…

An Afghan Kadyrov wouldn’t have run away when his enemies arrived at least.

 

[JANFU]

 

[JANFU]

And Russia will not agree

 

[Roadvirus]

New York charity sends Ukrainian soldiers, civilians bulletproof vests

Since Russian forces invaded Ukraine at the end of February, Lydia Dominick has been working around the clock with her charity Buffalo Gives to aid soldiers fighting in the most dangerous areas of the country, as well as citizens both inside Ukraine and those who have escaped.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Roadvirus]

Ukraine says between 2,500 to 3,000 of its troops have been killed, compared to Russia's 19,000

"As of now, based on the information we have...we just don't know how many people have died in that area that is blocked," Zelenskyy told CNN.

www.businessinsider.com

The civilian death toll must be horrendous by now.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I would rather have a dictator in charge than live in a country where different factions battle it out like they did in Iraq.

I would rather have had the US build a state that can defend itself than some liberal do-gooder dream that crumbles as soon as the Taliban arrives.

I would rather have a fascist that is stronger than the criminal gangs that make everyone live in fear of them like much of Mexico or Central America.

The biggest thing democracy did for Russia was let the gangsters piece out the old empire for their own ends. I’d take a Czar over that, no question.

Reactor janitor, I don't even know where to begin mopping up with the above crock.

1. Iraq - - who invented that war again? A liberal?


2. Who made the deal with the Taliban again? A liberal?


3. Mexican/Central American gangs? I live in a predominantly Mexican neighborhood.
I don't live in fear.

4. George W. Bush was President when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Okay, I know I am not going to change your mind about everything ANYTHING but thank you for admitting democracy doesn't mean shit to you
and that you favor fascism, at least you're refreshingly honest about it.

 

[JANFU]

It'll be a loooooooooooooong time before any major Western company will want to do business with/in Russia again.

Yes it will. Tat said they are large suppliers of certain products, fertilizer and other resources the west needs.
Countries are shifting their trade with Russia as fast as possible to other sources
Russia will be left with a resource based economy, add in the brain drain.
Their economy is severely ****ed. 6 months till October.

 

[Centrist]

LIVE: U.N. Security Council meets to discuss Ukraine after Moscow's assault on eastern Ukraine
*when is finished a recording should be available in the player below:

 

[Joby]

Reactor janitor, I don't even know where to begin mopping up with the above crock.

1. Iraq - - who invented that war again? A liberal?
View attachment 67386413

John Bolton is a western liberal.

He believes western liberalism should be spread by force and the tools of western liberalism such as NATO should be expanded.

Bolton believes in a unipolar world in which the liberal west is not only the dominant power but the only true power.

2. Who made the deal with the Taliban again? A liberal?
View attachment 67386414

Not relevant. The focus of the US occupation was fundamentally flawed because we built a state we liked (modeled on our principles) and not a state that had what it takes to survive the onslaught.

In effect you prefer taliban rule to nominally-secular dictator.

That is the only real choice in Afghanistan.

3. Mexican/Central American gangs? I live in a predominantly Mexican neighborhood.

And you don’t live in fear because if members of those gangs murdered the local students they would be arrested and prosecuted. Our liberal state still functions.

That is not the case in Mexico itself, where many live under de facto rule of criminal gangs while their glorious liberal state is either too weak or corrupt to protect them.

Pathetic.

I give major kudos to the President of El Salvador who is rounding up the gangs en masse. And the western liberals are naturally crying about him asserting control over the cartels.

Take tour country back Mr President!!! Liberalism means nothing but gang rule for El Salvador!

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Okay, I know I am not going to change your mind about everything ANYTHING but thank you for admitting democracy doesn't mean shit to you
and that you favor fascism, at least you're refreshingly honest about it.

The choice being fascism or liberalism that won’t protect you from ISIS or the Taliban or criminal cartels?

Fascism. Not my first choice but no question under those circumstances.

Where do you stand with El Salvador?

The authoritarian President or rule by the liberals aka de facto drug cartel rule?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Where can Ptin spend that wealth?

He spends an awful lot of it buying influence in Western democracies.