[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

[Tangmo]

I am curious, do these floating mirror pyramids and barges even work? Or is this some grand military placebo to boost morale? Like when the Soviet government gave its soldiers lead underwear to allay their fears of sterility when they were cleaning up around Chernobyl?

Interesting! Fascinating, if true.

If true, which neither NATO nor Russia will confirm or deny. Which is always government doublespeak for us to figure it out for ourselves. In fact Pentagon remains silent on it, although I continue to expect their statement to come sooner rather than later.

Kremlin says it put the "radar deflectors" obviously at the Crimea Bridge believing the "mirrors" are effective. Yet Kremlin provides no evidence or testing to prove it. Russia isn't confirming or denying the British MoD assertion made Aug. 4th the radar "deflectors" as Kremlin calls 'em are also deployed to the Antonivskiy Bridge and days later, a nearby rail bridge. Each of 'em are already blasted into disuse of the road deck "by Ukrainian artillery forces" to include as recently Aug. 5th. No mention of Himars specifically or at all.

There are no reports from either side Himars were used on either the road bridge or the rail bridge. After my hunting through pages of google and selecting more than a dozen articles both authored or news reported, none say Himars was used. It's always "Ukrainian artillery" did the damage or "Ukrainian forces" did it all, or in part. Himars is never mentioned about the two bridges.

I dug into this before posting the article on Himar's "technical flaw" which anyway is about the satellites, not Himars which uses GPS rather than radar. It's the satellites that use radar which is what the Russians are focused on. Ukraine artillery troops say they can see their targets yet they need the satellite radars to get the GPS to 'em. The suggestion is of course Ukraine Himars operators aren't getting the GPS.

Moreover, after your post about being curious I dug yet more and found that headlines about this aren't supported by the content of the article, every article whether authored or news reported -- pro or con. So I myself can't vouch for either side being right. Nobody is supporting a definitive statement that proves true or false, and Pentagon still has said nothing about it. Every article beats around the proverbial bush.

Here for instance is the British MoD statement on Aug. 4th which is the last official statement I've seen on the Kremlin radar mirrors that look more like a Rube Goldberg contraption than a military asset:

Britain's Ministry of Defence said on Thursday that in response to the bridge strikes, Russia had "almost certainly positioned pyramidal radar reflectors in the water" near the structures. "The radar reflectors are likely being used to hide the bridge from synthetic aperture radar imagery and possible missile targeting equipment," the defense assessment said. "This highlights the threat Russia feels from the increased range and precision of Western-supplied systems."

So, as with every statement or article on this, it says nothing about Himars being used...nothing. All the same, I'm confident Pentagon lacking any kind of verification either way is looking into this in a thorough and comprehensive way before saying anything either way.

 

[Minerva]

The Kremlin has sacked Gen. Aleksandr Dvornikov who had been charged with overall command of the operation in Ukraine. General-Colonel Aleksandr Zhuravlev who had commanded Russia's Western Military District since 2018 has likely been replaced and another General was relieved of command of Southern Grouping Forces.

Russia in 'Tremendous' Military Difficulty in Ukraine War: Lange

German lawmaker Nico Lange said Saturday that significant aid from overseas has changed the power dynamic in the ongoing conflict.

www.newsweek.com

Russia’s private military contractor Wagner comes out of the shadows in Ukraine war

Mercenary group does not officially exist but is playing a more public role and openly recruiting in Russia

www.theguardian.com

So there have been eight Russian generals killed in combat and how many relieved of duty now?

I can't imagine that somewhere there isn't an assassination attempt being hatched. There were six against Hitler.

 

[Tangmo]

This war has really brought out the more obscure pieces of hardware.

I recently saw an old movie that had Peter the Great leading a column of these.




Yep that's exactly what I saw.

 

[Juks]

You see, the problem you have is low information because you are limited to one language.

The Iris-T SLM and SLS, have to be produced first, even Germany does not have this system jet. Then you have to train the operators, which takes about 2 months. Right now they are training Ukraine soldier with simulators in Germany, which will then followed up, with training on the freshly built equipment.
Diehl had to negotiate with several countries, to allow that the first systems will go to the Ukraine and they will except a delay. Cost wise this is not a peanuts system, a SLM costs 140million Euro.
And those Gepards, here too low information, as usual. Germany had a hard time to find a ammo producer. In its own inventory it has only 60,000 rounds. Early July Germany signed a contract with a Norwegian company to produce over 300,000 rounds of ammo. Germany is not telling how many Gepards are in the Ukraine right now, could be ten or twenty by now, it does not make this info public, same with the ammo, how fast it can be produced and when it will be delivered.
The three Ukraine talked about came with 60,000 rounds of ammo.
Germany does not publish how many 2000 have been delivered, it is also quiet about the counterbattery radars. I know that Ukraine soldiers are in Germany and are getting trained on those.
Apparently you have no idea about the defense industry, how it works in peace time, military products are a side job for companies like Diehl, Rhein Metall, KM and so on. Those very expensive weapons are only produced in small numbers for specific contracts and it takes time to retool the factories, from civilian to military products.
Its not good to be a loudmouth, if one is a low info loudmouth.
Now back to ignore.

Interesting and very informative. Thank you! I think the Swedish army industry works slightly different due to us having been neutral and our defense was reliant on our weapon industry. In order to develop, adjust and produce weapons and equipment to what our country looks like and how an attack might look like , we needed to keep production up and expertise in place and in my view we have been somewhat aggressive in doing that . But I am no expert, so it is just a view.

 

[Felis Leo]

So there have been eight Russian generals killed in combat and how many relieved of duty now?

I can't imagine that somewhere there isn't an assassination attempt being hatched. There were six against Hitler.

To assassinate Putin, Russian military members would have to know where Putin is located at any given time. It is my understanding that Putin's day-to-day location is kept under wraps by the FSO (which is the Russian equivalent of the U.S. Secret Service), and the Presidential Security Service (which may have around a couple thousand personnel alone).

Federal Protective Service (Russia) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Presidential Security Service (Russia) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are very few people who can actually plot and carry out an assassination attempt against Vladimir Putin who would not be killed in the attempt. The only people who could feasibly take out Putin would be from within the FSO. And I have not heard of any break in their loyalty that would allow such an act of praetorianism to take place (though it is certainly not impossible).

 

[Roadvirus]

This is the "mainstream media" of Russia, the representatives of their Russian audiences and culture. What else do you need to know about the enemies of Ukraine's people?

MSN

www.msn.com

Another Dumbass Duma big mouth.

 

[Roadvirus]

So nice these idiots are slowly admitting the truth, a truth we here in the West knew from the beginning, to the world

 

[Roadvirus]

.

Wagner terrorist group

 

[Roadvirus]

I'm a poor man's version of Shawn Penn, emotionally engaged but utterly ineffectual.

Just don't go punching photographers or marrying Madonna

 

[Roadvirus]

This war has really brought out the more obscure pieces of hardware.

Let me guess....another Russian relic from WWII?

 

[Roadvirus]

So, add torture of children to the long list.

That was added when the Russian child raping shit hit the news.

 

[Roadvirus]

Are you equally emotionally involved with the lack of US military aid in Yemen? How abut the war in Ethiopia and Sudan?

Deflection on the play. 10-yard penalty.

 

[Roadvirus]

So there have been eight Russian generals killed in combat

10

Ten Russian generals killed in Ukraine, UK intelligence says

The Ukrainian army has managed to eliminate at least 10 Russian generals over the course of the war, the UK’s Military Intelligence said in their daily Twitter update on Aug. 7.

english.nv.ua

Being a General in the Russian military these days is as bad as being in the Imperial Army and in charge of something in Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

 

[Roadvirus]

Cook & Maid poisoned Russian puppet in Kherson Oblast (Imagine the headline if the butler did it!)

Cook and maid suspected of poisoning Russian-backed Kherson “governor”

Russia’s Gauleiter in the temporarily occupied areas of Kherson Oblast, Volodymyr Saldo, whose hospitalization was reported earlier, could have been poisoned, Kremlin propagandist media report.

english.nv.ua

UAF destroys 4 S-300 Air Defense Systems

Ukrainian attacks hit Russian air defenses near Kherson

The Ukrainian Armed Forces have destroyed at least four Russian S-300 air defense systems in southern Ukraine, along with 72 enemy troops, the Ukrainian military’s Operational Command South said in a Facebook post on Aug. 7.

english.nv.ua

 

[maxparrish]

You see, the problem you have is low information because you are limited to one language.

The Iris-T SLM and SLS, have to be produced first, even Germany does not have this system jet. Then you have to train the operators, which takes about 2 months. Right now they are training Ukraine soldier with simulators in Germany, which will then followed up, with training on the freshly built equipment.
Diehl had to negotiate with several countries, to allow that the first systems will go to the Ukraine and they will except a delay. Cost wise this is not a peanuts system, a SLM costs 140million Euro.
And those Gepards, here too low information, as usual. Germany had a hard time to find a ammo producer. In its own inventory it has only 60,000 rounds. Early July Germany signed a contract with a Norwegian company to produce over 300,000 rounds of ammo. Germany is not telling how many Gepards are in the Ukraine right now, could be ten or twenty by now, it does not make this info public, same with the ammo, how fast it can be produced and when it will be delivered.
The three Ukraine talked about came with 60,000 rounds of ammo.
Germany does not publish how many 2000 have been delivered, it is also quiet about the counterbattery radars. I know that Ukraine soldiers are in Germany and are getting trained on those.
Apparently you have no idea about the defense industry, how it works in peace time, military products are a side job for companies like Diehl, Rhein Metall, KM and so on. Those very expensive weapons are only produced in small numbers for specific contracts and it takes time to retool the factories, from civilian to military products.
Its not good to be a loudmouth, if one is a low info loudmouth.
Now back to ignore.

If you thought you'd get away with a drive-by commentary, you will be disappointed.

"You see, the problem is" that as on prior occasions, you missed the point. Those posters that choose to interpret every critical or tangental comment as uniquely aimed at their personal sacred cow have clouded judgement. I don't care what the excuses are for any country or leader's inability to act quickly - be it their political system, contracting processes, or poor government management. THE POINT IS that whatever the cause of delay, confusion, poor planning, or apathy the end result MUST be of concern to all who are invested in NATO security.

Patriotic wounded pride is no excuse for ignoring a serious problem. NATO countries, for the most part, have wrongly retired most of their military to reserves and/or destruction. They have made their budgeting, development and acquisition processes so cumbersome and subject to politics as to cripple their ability to produce on a timely and prompt basis. And the end result is that should a full scale war in Europe erupt, the combatants would take years to ramp up production of equipment and munitions (e.g. the US has contracted for more Stingers...the first replacements be delivered in THREE YEARS).

Each country has its own source of poor inventory, and few exemplify reasonable competence (France being one that does better than most). On the other end is Germany whose procurement problems are widely recognized as an artifact of its politics, federal budgeting system, legal system, and decision making processes. The US also has its share of ineptness, much of it from it's pork barrel politics and burdensome purchasing system.

So yes, Germany's acquisition and production of the IRIS-T SL is a typical example of the Western slowness in meeting military needs. The IRIS-T SL passed qualification tests in 2015, SEVEN years ago. The second operational testing of Germany's IRIS-T SLM was six months ago. Production in Germany is slated to start between now and September. Deliveries to begin in December.

Yet two and half years ago Sweden's version entered production for their ground based systems, the last units to be delivered in 2023.

The three year lag of Germany compared to Sweden for the same missile and application being an obvious difference in the two countries ability to make decisions on a timely basis and implement them.

So everyone needs to stop making excuses for their own countries and leaders slowness, and hold all of them accountable for their failures . Until that happens, the chances of NATO failure in Ukraine needlessly grows.

 

[maxparrish]

Just don't go punching photographers or marrying Madonna

LOL...didn't know he married Madonna. Talk about a marriage made in hell (or so I would suppose).

 

[maxparrish]

Deflection on the play. 10-yard penalty.

Or maybe "illegal procedure", twice over.

 

[Schrott]

Interesting and very informative. Thank you! I think the Swedish army industry works slightly different due to us having been neutral and our defense was reliant on our weapon industry. In order to develop, adjust and produce weapons and equipment to what our country looks like and how an attack might look like , we needed to keep production up and expertise in place and in my view we have been somewhat aggressive in doing that . But I am no expert, so it is just a view.

The German defense industry does Boutique manufacturing, the domestic demand has been low and the very restrictive export politic made it a sideshow, despite the superb equipment they produce. They are forced to use those factories inbetween military contracts for civilian products, heavy mining equipment for example to prevent that the factories go idle and the high quality workers are without a job. That could change now with higher demand

 

[Tangmo]

You see, the problem you have is low information because you are limited to one language.
And those Gepards, here too low information, as usual. Germany had a hard time to find a ammo producer. In its own inventory it has only 60,000 rounds. Early July Germany signed a contract with a Norwegian company to produce over 300,000 rounds of ammo. Germany is not telling how many Gepards are in the Ukraine right now, could be ten or twenty by now, it does not make this info public, same with the ammo, how fast it can be produced and when it will be delivered.
The three Ukraine talked about came with 60,000 rounds of ammo.
Germany does not publish how many 2000 have been delivered, it is also quiet about the counterbattery radars.

The poster you are addressing can handle himself very well yet I must interpose to say, first off you've shown time and again being multilingual damages your spelling, diction (word choice) and phrasing. And I'm posting only some of your post that I edited for focus.

UAF is greatly dissatisfied with certain German weapons it received on transfer from Germany.

For but one existing issue, Der Spiegel reported on July 29 that Panzerhaubitze 2000 self propelled artillery weapons, touted by Western sources as probably the most successful on earth, is exhibiting important indicators of “wear and tear” after only a month in service. This has resulted in weapons breaking down and forcing Ukraine to switch to artillery acquired from different NATO providers.

This Panzer 2000 has poor compatibility of ammunition besides. Likewise the German Gepard anti-aircraft tank donated to Ukraine has additionally suffered compatibility of ammunition from different NATO members. So it appears that while Germany isn't the only NATO member state to fail on NATO interoperability and uniform standardization of ammunition no matter the make of the weapon, Germany is a recidivist culprit that contracts out to the lowest bidder or seller regardless of critically binding agreements in these respects. No one can seriously say Berlin was not fully aware of any of this.


Germany’s Leopard 2A4 Main Battle Tank performed miserably when Turkey deployed it in each Iraq and Syria. British media was the first (of course) to report the bad news to Germans, ie, that the Leopard 2 revealed "quite a few faults uncovered in a deadly vogue” (as only the Brits could say it). The USA venerable military and veterans newspaper Stars and Stripes said that the tank’s top billing “has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants.”

Der Spiegel gasped this time that the German tank and its fighting efficiency “shockingly illustrated” that Leopard 2 armor was “not so good in any case.” Turkish Army leaders described their Leopard 2 early engagements with Islamic State militants as a “loss trauma” for the losses the Islamists inflicted on the German tanks. The Leopard 2A4 awful performance against lightly armed and tankless "non-state forces" once more elevated critical questions about the standards of German armaments.


The Panther Main Battle Tank design unveiled in June is already too risky for foreign governments to commit to buy given the lousy battle performance of the Leopard 2. Indeed the Poland Defense Ministry announced recently it will not purchase extra Leopard 2 tanks or spend money on the Panzer 2000, favoring instead the South Korean K2 Main Battle Tank -- and the US parent, the K9 howitzer.

According to Kris Osborne a US military expert who is defense editor at The National Interest:

"The newly unveiled Rheinmetall KF51 Panther tank is to be built with a 130mm Future Gun System, a weapon larger than the standard 120mm weapon used on the Abrams, something which raises questions about the extent to which the new platform represents a technological advancement. Abrams developers have the technology for “modular’ gun applications, meaning a 130mm cannon could be added on as needed. The Panther appears to weave in new and more capable technologies. However, it is unclear just how much the new tank rivals or surpasses the most current variants of the U.S. Army’s Abrams main battle tank. The barrel is also fitted with a futuristic-looking shroud, but it’s not clear how it contributes to the efficiency or effectiveness of the tank.”

In other words and in any language, more blue smoke and mirrors in Germany.

 

[JANFU]

 

[maxparrish]

Interesting. Apparently even the "Butcher of Syria" and master of scorched earth tactics has not satisfied Herr Putin's blood lust. To hold ground and make small gains in the Donbas isn't acceptable; suggesting that Putin's impatience is greater than some might have thought.

Clearly his officer corp at the highest levels must be very frightened of failure, and more than a little resentful.

It appears that what Russia is in dire need of is the sudden death of this new Stalin, Herr Putin, and someone like Khrushchev and Zhukov step forward and arrest the head of the FSB and have him tried quickly and shot (as was Beria).

There are now many potential highest level generals with an axe to grind, let us hope one of them ends up in the same position.

PS. Zhukov was the most pivotal individual in post Stalin history (till Gorbachev), and for a communist one of the most admirable. Among his notable attributes:

1) He was probably the only survivor that didn't kiss Stalin's ass and firmly stated his opinion, without crossing lines.

2) He understood the deep evil of Stalin, and harbored a hatred of Beria (as did many in the Soviet Union). When he backed Khrushchev, he order his army to take over Moscow's security (rather than Beria's NKVD) and when the special meeting by Khrushchev was held, stood up and arrested Beria, his pistol drawn. Later, when a backlash developed trying to fire Khrushchev he told party leaders that 'not one tank of the military will move without my order' unless they backed down.

3) When he was retired he always said the proudest moment of his life was in arresting Beria.

If Putin should die in office, Russia's only hope is that the military takes a pound of flesh from the FSB and won't permit another ruler from the police state.

 

[maxparrish]

LOL...if true so much for those radar reflectors.

 

[JANFU]

More ammo dumps exploding

 

[maxparrish]

The poster you are addressing can handle himself very well yet I must interpose to say, first off you've shown time and again being multilingual damages your spelling, diction (word choice) and phrasing. And I'm posting only some of your post that I edited for focus.

UAF is greatly dissatisfied with certain German weapons it received on transfer from Germany.

For but one existing issue, Der Spiegel reported on July 29 that Panzerhaubitze 2000 self propelled artillery weapons, touted by Western sources as probably the most successful on earth, is exhibiting important indicators of “wear and tear” after only a month in service. This has resulted in weapons breaking down and forcing Ukraine to switch to artillery acquired from different NATO providers.

This Panzer 2000 has poor compatibility of ammunition besides. Likewise the German Gepard anti-aircraft tank donated to Ukraine has additionally suffered compatibility of ammunition from different NATO members. So it appears that while Germany isn't the only NATO member state to fail on NATO interoperability and uniform standardization of ammunition no matter the make of the weapon, Germany is a recidivist culprit that contracts out to the lowest bidder or seller regardless of critically binding agreements in these respects. No one can seriously say Berlin was not fully aware of any of this.


Germany’s Leopard 2A4 Main Battle Tank performed miserably when Turkey deployed it in each Iraq and Syria. British media was the first (of course) to report the bad news to Germans, ie, that the Leopard 2 revealed "quite a few faults uncovered in a deadly vogue” (as only the Brits could say it). The USA venerable military and veterans newspaper Stars and Stripes said that the tank’s top billing “has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants.”

Der Spiegel gasped this time that the German tank and its fighting efficiency “shockingly illustrated” that Leopard 2 armor was “not so good in any case.” Turkish Army leaders described their Leopard 2 early engagements with Islamic State militants as a “loss trauma” for the losses the Islamists inflicted on the German tanks. The Leopard 2A4 awful performance against lightly armed and tankless "non-state forces" once more elevated critical questions about the standards of German armaments.


The Panther Main Battle Tank design unveiled in June is already too risky for foreign governments to commit to buy given the lousy battle performance of the Leopard 2. Indeed the Poland Defense Ministry announced recently it will not purchase extra Leopard 2 tanks or spend money on the Panzer 2000, favoring instead the South Korean K2 Main Battle Tank -- and the US parent, the K9 howitzer.

According to Kris Osborne a US military expert who is defense editor at The National Interest:



In other words and in any language, more blue smoke and mirrors in Germany.

This and previous wars should provide a lesson to all Western states:

1) Be careful with who you choose to supply your weapons and ammo. Countries like Switzerland, Turkey, and Israel are liable to pull the rug out from you for various reasons in different situations.

2) Be careful what country even you own domestic firm manufactures in. As the Swiss demonstrated, even the German manufacturer in Switzerland was not permitted to supply ammo to Germany if intended for Ukraine.

3) Stockpile...stockpile...stockpile.

4) Demand accountability from manufacturers, especially those of foreign origin.

5) Whenever possible, secure a license to produce the weapon in one's own country. If one has the leverage, demand few or no restrictions on its usage or transfer of ownership.

6) Forget national pride. The US has failed to develop a modern 155mm SP gun, constantly delaying its introduction. That is unacceptable when artillery is "the queen of war". If the US doesn't have it, then work a deal with Archer, Pz2000, or Caesar, or AS-90.

7) Start focusing on joint development with Asia, especially Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. They have the technical know how and anti-Russian/Chinese interests to be become very important and more reliable suppliers.

 

[JANFU]

Partisans behind the lines, and this will only increase