• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine War Thread

EnigmaO01

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
17,072
Reaction score
10,123
Location
Indiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
If find this very perplexing. How does it take so long to purchase systems? How is a desperate AA-anti cruise missile need that was identified by March 1st 2022, labor for 7 1/2 months only to gave give birth to only one or two systems? (Which is what the US said it would purchase).

2 NASAMs are used to protect Washington DC government offices. That is a very modest area, so why in the world would the administration purchase almost nothing when all of Ukraine is in need of deployable AA against tactical and strategic bombing?

Germany promised IRIS-T in DECEMBER. And one report is that it promised ONE. One? Are they kidding?

And those Gepards. Of the 50 suggested, 30 was promised, 15 of them by Mid July. Last I heard is that in Mid July a total of THREE were done. And no word if any have been shipped to Ukraine.

What has not be acknowledged in the press, but is very apparent, the West is a paper tiger. It is entirely unprepared for a major war, ability to build replacement weapons and produce munitions at the rate of likely expenditure is almost non existent.

It's almost criminal how brittle and vulnerable the western militaries have left their forces. Once an intense full scale war begins, NATO will be totally out of munitions within days or a few weeks. The Russians, on the other hand, seem to have a mountain of munitions...never ending.
I understand your frustration but again being a veteran I can assure you only a fool tells his enemy how many weapons he has at his disposal. I think when this is all over we will find that the number of weapons provided by the U.S. and other countries was vastly understated for a reason as in to avoid any panic and escalation by Putin.

And furthermore too many Russian targets e.g. command posts and ammo dumps in a short amount of time are hit by long range missiles for there just to be just a handful of HIMARS etc.
 

Juin

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
6,551
Reaction score
2,113
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Turkey needs to be booted from NATO.



In its present configuration, yes. Maybe Nato/Eu is ready for a reshuffling of the deck. There are people who should be in, Sweden and Finland; and people who should be out like Turkey. The Turkey of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is long gone. That Turkey was a natural Nato fit. It was anti communist and aggressively oriented towards the west: culturally, legally, politically, philosophically. The Turkey of Erdogan is oriented away from the west and its conception of who is the enemy is at odds with the rest of Nato. One can argue that Erdogan's Turkey sees Sweden and Finland as more of a threat to them than Russia
 

Juin

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
6,551
Reaction score
2,113
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The HIMARS missiles are not radar guided. They are GPS guided.

The Russian mirror defenses of bridges are to foil satellites that use radars to get their GPS coordinates and then relay GPS coordinates using radar signals down to the missile launchers.

With the Russian radar mirrors the satellites can't do their job. HIMARS missiles as used in Ukraine are foiled because they can't get the GPS from the radar dependent satellites.


This is from an article dated August 7 to be published in the Sunday Eurasia Times....

Russia Exploiting ‘Technical Flaw’ In HIMARS MLRS; Deploys Radar Reflectors To Protect Key Infra — Expert​

As Ukraine continues to ramp up its offensive against Russia using long-range weapons like HIMARS, Russia has started deploying countermeasures like radar reflectors to confuse the enemy.

DECOY DEFENSE: #RUSSIA ROLLS OUT BARGES WHICH ARE COVERED IN RADAR REFLECTORS AT THE #CRIMEAN BRIDGE TO COUNTER POTENTIAL THREATS FROM #UKRAINIAN FORCES WHO HAVE SUGGESTED THE CROSSING IS THEIR NUMBER ONE TARGET.@INTELREPUBLIC#RUSSIANUKRAINIANWAR #UKRAINEWAR PIC.TWITTER.COM/HNCAMCU4NR




The article states that Russia "is trying to evade enemy fire by deploying countermeasures. Russians have deployed an array of pyramidal radar reflectors in the water to the west of the Antonivsky bridge and near the rail bridge. The Antonivsky Bridge is just upstream of Kherson." Neither is it a news bulletin that the only way for Moscow to hold onto this oblast is by maintaining its supply lines over the Dnipro river."



Interesting! Fascinating, if true.
 

Juin

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
6,551
Reaction score
2,113
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
save some production for the Chinese..the cupboard is bare - Ukraine sucked it dry and now we are supposed to send more?
What kind of open ended committment is this without accountability? Ukraine is riding the US gravy train.



Neocons forget one thing: bankruptcy. The Soviet Union ran itself into bankruptcy. The Germans may have lost WWI and WWII, but they did force the British and French empires into bankruptcy, reducing both to second level global powers; the US and USSR taking over. This open ended commitments neocons are forcing on the west is a recipe for bankruptcy. The big beneficiary after all the dust has settled will be Fu Manchu in Beijing, if he plays his cards right. Mahatma Ghandi in Delhi as well.
 

Tangmo

Army Veteran
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
21,062
Reaction score
5,132
Location
Fascist Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I agree, and want to add: Whenever Sweden has promised weapons to the Ukraine (in total 5 times) we have delivered within a week or two from the decision was made in our parlament, with exception for one time when we coordinated deliveries with NATO.

GO SWEDEN!;)

If we are let in, maybe NATO should make us responsible for logistics....:D
Great on you and Sweden for forwarding weapons to Ukraine and for the fast action to accomplish the transfer.

All the same though logistics in Sweden are small while processing and procurement are done by a small though first rate MIC.

From Global Security: "Due to the sophistication of Swedish industry, about 90 percent of all military equipment acquisitions is met by Swedish contractors, of which only about 15 percent is handled by foreign subcontractors. The Defense Material Administration is responsible for procurement, maintenance, and storage of equipment for the Swedish Armed Forces. This organization, consisting of 3,000 employees utilizes more than 2,000 different suppliers within domestic and foreign industry. About 30,000 people are employed by the Swedish defense industry." And I'd add they're all pushing in the same direction.

That is, the Sweden parliament votes the transfers right through and the small and efficient Defense Material Administration hauls it out and then its on its way to Ukraine. Good show indeed as there's a lot to be said complimenting that yet when we look at the Swedish MIC and the USA MIC we're in two different dimensions. Germany is of course the anthesis of Sweden in that almost everything in the military budget occurs in a room full of blue smoke and mirrors, as designed. Then they move outside to the junkyard called the Bundeswehr.
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,405
Reaction score
6,556
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I understand your frustration but again being a veteran I can assure you only a fool tells his enemy how many weapons he has at his disposal. I think when this is all over we will find that the number of weapons provided by the U.S. and other countries was vastly understated for a reason as in to avoid any panic and escalation by Putin.

And furthermore too many Russian targets e.g. command posts and ammo dumps in a short amount of time are hit by long range missiles for there just to be just a handful of HIMARS etc.

Yes, I am frustrated, and have been so even before the war started -- truth be told I was frustrated in 2014 when the US refused to supply anymore than MRE's and helmets so as to not "provoke" Putin.

But sitting here in the US, a 71 year with little power to contribute, and zero political influence makes the subject one of endless vexation. All the more so when a friend or two of my own political leanings doesn't get it.

I'm a poor man's version of Shawn Penn, emotionally engaged but utterly ineffectual.
 

Tangmo

Army Veteran
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
21,062
Reaction score
5,132
Location
Fascist Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Regarding Turkey and others

Congress in 2019 made a law that the US is prohibited from sanctioning the sovereignty of a formal treaty ally. And we know Turkey is an allied country of long standing as a NATO member state.





That's all I know about a successful amendment to a new law that established additional sanctions on any private corporation participating in the construction of the Nord Stream 2 serpent gas pipeline in the Baltic to Germany From Russia With Love.

Congress adopted the amendment while a potus Trump was serious about sanctioning the sovereign German government which was a coinvestor in the pipeline and was greasing the skids for the regulatory approval agencies to certify it. Trump would have also sanctioned the German state government that is the landfall of the serpent pipeline because it had established a bogus "foundation" to circumvent sanctions on numerous corporations doing the construction, European corporations that had fled the Baltic by the morning after Trump put sanctions on the whole gang of 'em. It was to be a double whammy too given the state includes Merkel's then voting constituency. So the new law stopped Trump cold from imposing sanctions on German sovereignty.

US has a number of existing sanctions against the Turkey SSB (in English) which is a civil institution set up to manage the supply of military equipment, because it bought the Russian S-400 missile defense system from Rosoboronexport, a Russian state-owned weapons exporter. Turkey’s private corporation transaction with Russia violated US secondary sanctions that prohibit third countries from dealing with countries that are directly sanctioned by the US government.

US needs to sanction Turkish corporations cooperating with Russia in violation of existing sanctions to also show CCP DictatorTyrants in Beijing what's in store for them should they pivot to material assistance to Russia in Ukraine. So it's good Biden knows this and that his team have started talking about the secondary sanctions against certain Turkey private corporations and businesses.
 

Rogue Valley

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
78,168
Reaction score
63,067
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The Kremlin has sacked Gen. Aleksandr Dvornikov who had been charged with overall command of the operation in Ukraine. General-Colonel Aleksandr Zhuravlev who had commanded Russia's Western Military District since 2018 has likely been replaced and another General was relieved of command of Southern Grouping Forces.


 

justoneman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
972
Yes, I am frustrated, and have been so even before the war started -- truth be told I was frustrated in 2014 when the US refused to supply anymore than MRE's and helmets so as to not "provoke" Putin.

But sitting here in the US, a 71 year with little power to contribute, and zero political influence makes the subject one of endless vexation. All the more so when a friend or two of my own political leanings doesn't get it.

I'm a poor man's version of Shawn Penn, emotionally engaged but utterly ineffectual.
Are you equally emotionally involved with the lack of US military aid in Yemen? How abut the war in Ethiopia and Sudan?
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,405
Reaction score
6,556
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The Kremlin has sacked Gen. Aleksandr Dvornikov who had been charged with overall command of the operation in Ukraine. General-Colonel Aleksandr Zhuravlev who had commanded Russia's Western Military District since 2018 has likely been replaced and another General was relieved of command of Southern Grouping Forces.



Interesting. Apparently even the "Butcher of Syria" and master of scorched earth tactics has not satisfied Herr Putin's blood lust. To hold ground and make small gains in the Donbas isn't acceptable; suggesting that Putin's impatience is greater than some might have thought.

Clearly his officer corp at the highest levels must be very frightened of failure, and more than a little resentful.

It appears that what Russia is in dire need of is the sudden death of this new Stalin, Herr Putin, and someone like Khrushchev and Zhukov step forward and arrest the head of the FSB and have him tried quickly and shot (as was Beria).

There are now many potential highest level generals with an axe to grind, let us hope one of them ends up in the same position.
 

anatta

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
10,273
Reaction score
4,572
Location
daily dukkha
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Are you equally emotionally involved with the lack of US military aid in Yemen? How abut the war in Ethiopia and Sudan?
That’s because the US still has troops in Iraq and in Syria. In Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Yemen, the US military is, among other things, advising on counterterrorism, and the Pentagon keeps more than 700 personnel in Niger and thousands in Djibouti. The US also deploys drone strikes and special operations forces against targets across the Middle East and Africa without much accountability or oversight.

And in May 2022, Biden agreed to send about 500 US troops to Somalia.
 

Schrott

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2021
Messages
2,056
Reaction score
2,229
If find this very perplexing. How does it take so long to purchase systems? How is a desperate AA-anti cruise missile need that was identified by March 1st 2022, labor for 7 1/2 months only to gave give birth to only one or two systems? (Which is what the US said it would purchase).

2 NASAMs are used to protect Washington DC government offices. That is a very modest area, so why in the world would the administration purchase almost nothing when all of Ukraine is in need of deployable AA against tactical and strategic bombing?

Germany promised IRIS-T in DECEMBER. And one report is that it promised ONE. One? Are they kidding?

And those Gepards. Of the 50 suggested, 30 was promised, 15 of them by Mid July. Last I heard is that in Mid July a total of THREE were done. And no word if any have been shipped to Ukraine.

What has not be acknowledged in the press, but is very apparent, the West is a paper tiger. It is entirely unprepared for a major war, ability to build replacement weapons and produce munitions at the rate of likely expenditure is almost non existent.

It's almost criminal how brittle and vulnerable the western militaries have left their forces. Once an intense full scale war begins, NATO will be totally out of munitions within days or a few weeks. The Russians, on the other hand, seem to have a mountain of munitions...never ending.
You see, the problem you have is low information because you are limited to one language.

The Iris-T SLM and SLS, have to be produced first, even Germany does not have this system jet. Then you have to train the operators, which takes about 2 months. Right now they are training Ukraine soldier with simulators in Germany, which will then followed up, with training on the freshly built equipment.
Diehl had to negotiate with several countries, to allow that the first systems will go to the Ukraine and they will except a delay. Cost wise this is not a peanuts system, a SLM costs 140million Euro.
And those Gepards, here too low information, as usual. Germany had a hard time to find a ammo producer. In its own inventory it has only 60,000 rounds. Early July Germany signed a contract with a Norwegian company to produce over 300,000 rounds of ammo. Germany is not telling how many Gepards are in the Ukraine right now, could be ten or twenty by now, it does not make this info public, same with the ammo, how fast it can be produced and when it will be delivered.
The three Ukraine talked about came with 60,000 rounds of ammo.
Germany does not publish how many 2000 have been delivered, it is also quiet about the counterbattery radars. I know that Ukraine soldiers are in Germany and are getting trained on those.
Apparently you have no idea about the defense industry, how it works in peace time, military products are a side job for companies like Diehl, Rhein Metall, KM and so on. Those very expensive weapons are only produced in small numbers for specific contracts and it takes time to retool the factories, from civilian to military products.
Its not good to be a loudmouth, if one is a low info loudmouth.
Now back to ignore.
 
Top Bottom