• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine War Thread

Rogue Valley

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
78,172
Reaction score
63,068
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Yes, you can. Ukraine didn't invade Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine. What part of that don't you understand? And what part of "Ukraine has the right to defend itself", don't you understand?

This is like someone complaining about a victim trespassing on someone else's property while they are frantically running away from the scene of an attempted murder. This is "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" bullshit. This is like the cops yelling, "Stop Resisting" while they are beating the shit out of a suspect.

And where these civilian buildings? On the front line? Next to all the other civilian buildings Russia bombed to hell? Were any civilians there? When did these incidents take place? At the beginning of the war when Ukraine was trying to figure out how to defend itself from a much more powerful adversary?

Where are the complaints about Bucha? Did you see the photos of the Ukrainians bound and shot in the head? Where are the complaints about Russia deliberately targeting civilian areas? Where are the complaints about Russia breaking the grain shipment agreements with strikes on the Ukrainian ports? Russia is castrating Ukrainian POWs. Did you see the video of the Ukrainian POW getting his balls cut off? You ain't got shit to say about that, do you? Not a single word. Russia is murdering Ukrainian POWS. Where was all your commentary on those Amnesty International articles? Nothing. I didn't see anything from you or the anti-NATO/Pro-Russians except excuses, rationalizations, and outright promotion of bullshit Russian lies and propaganda. I did see a little poem mocking NATO's support of Ukraine and Ukraine's courageous defense of itself. I suppose that's more fun than talking about all the dead Ukrainian civilians.

And this is what you focus on?

"GOTCHA ZELENSKY! GOTCHA ZELENSKY!"

Ukraine's crime in your mind is not already surrendering.

**** THAT!

It's disgusting what the pro Russians in this thread support.

Good on you for telling it as it is. The Putin rowers here will try and latch on to anything to discredit Ukraine.

All the while posting absolutely nothing about Russia's war crimes that are SO numerous that foreign forensic experts must augment the Ukrainian investigators.
 

Tangmo

Army Veteran
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
21,062
Reaction score
5,133
Location
Fascist Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Last 2 started in Europe/Asia

There's a super excellent piece in The Hill as of yesterday that presents a comprehensive and keen strategic and tactical analysis of the war as of the moment and extrapolated through the next six months, ie, toward
the end of winter.




The winter part first, from an end of July interview with Tom Nichols who is professor emeritus at the US Naval War College in Newport RI where for 25 years he taught in the Department of National & Global Security and Strategic Studies:

"I think, actually, winter is going to be tougher on the Russians. From a military point of view, to be the defender in your own country along internal lines of communication with nothing but allies along your western border is a reasonably good situation to be in when you’re hunkering down. What the Russians are going to have to do is keep cycling troops in and out of these tough forward positions in bitterly cold weather. I mean, what we in the West haven’t talked about enough, is that a lot of these Russian troops that are being sent there [are] not Russians. They’re not ethnically Russians. [Moscow is] going out, and they’re getting kids from the boondocks and some of the non-Russian areas of the RF and sending them off to the Ukrainian border. And that’s hard enough to do under the best conditions—but when a central European winter sets in, that’s going to be a lot more difficult. The Russians outnumber the Ukrainians, but in every situation like this, the defender has a lot of natural advantages over the aggressor, who has to take territory, has to maintain forward bases, has to feed and house troops, and so on. So, my guess is that Putin is dreading the onset of winter in some ways more than everybody else."





About a WW III in a super excellent analysis of the present strategic and tactical circumstance in Ukraine and extrapolated to six months hence, by the former Naval officer who was later the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations Seth Cropsey, who is former director of the Center for American Seapower at Hudson Institute (of New York & Sydney). Cropsey is president of Yorktown Institute in Washington who says "Putin can't control his Ukraine cataclysm and that the US must get ready."

"As the Russo-Ukrainian war grinds into its sixth full month, we must reckon with strategic reality. Russia is losing ground, and its strategic position will only deteriorate in coming months; further military reversals will intensify its strategic quandary. Three possibilities exist — revolution, a palace coup, or horizontal escalation — and the United States should prepare for each. Putin’s options are limited. Mobilization remains far too dangerous; arming tens of thousands of young Caucasian, Central Asian and Siberian Russians and shipping them through Moscow to Ukraine is a recipe for revolution. We may very well witness the reassertion of an old Soviet dynamic that pits the security services against the military, which brought Nikita Khrushchev to power and eliminated Lavrentiy Beria in 1953.

The greatest danger, therefore, comes after a successful Ukrainian push. Putin will feel the most domestic and psychological pressure, or finally will come around to the military’s argument for either mobilization or extension of the war."
The U.S. and its allies must prepare accordingly and expect a confrontation in the next six months. Four steps are necessary:


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...ready/ar-AA10iMgW?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL


Recall when the USSR surprise collapsed in 1992 and everyone was caught without warning or even a sniff of it's coming. Cropsey is saying to be ready this time for the three most obvious possibilities/probabilities so good on this well seasoned expert who worked for two SecDef and who first earned his chops in the Reagan DoD as deputy undersecretary of the Navy for policy where he was responsible for maritime strategy, strategic education, defense reorganization, and special operations (Seals) capabilities. 🎖️
 

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
4,932
Reaction score
3,907
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
@anatta and @Juin want the Ukrainians to bunch up all of their soldiers in an open field so the Russians can bomb the shit out of them.
So does Amnesty judging by the argumentation in the report. (well they open up to the option of laying down weapons altogether and letting Russia fight on it's own)
 

anatta

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
10,278
Reaction score
4,572
Location
daily dukkha
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
@anatta and @Juin want the Ukrainians to bunch up all of their soldiers in an open field so the Russians can bomb the shit out of them.
take it up with Amnesty
Yes, you can. Ukraine didn't invade Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine. What part of that don't you understand? And what part of "Ukraine has the right to defend itself", don't you understand?

This is like someone complaining about a victim trespassing on someone else's property while they are frantically running away from the scene of an attempted murder. This is "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" bullshit. This is like the cops yelling, "Stop Resisting" while they are beating the shit out of a suspect.

And where these civilian buildings? On the front line? Next to all the other civilian buildings Russia bombed to hell? Were any civilians there? When did these incidents take place? At the beginning of the war when Ukraine was trying to figure out how to defend itself from a much more powerful adversary?

Where are the complaints about Bucha? Did you see the photos of the Ukrainians bound and shot in the head? Where are the complaints about Russia deliberately targeting civilian areas? Where are the complaints about Russia breaking the grain shipment agreements with strikes on the Ukrainian ports? Russia is castrating Ukrainian POWs. Did you see the video of the Ukrainian POW getting his balls cut off? You ain't got shit to say about that, do you? Not a single word. Russia is murdering Ukrainian POWS. Where was all your commentary on those Amnesty International articles? Nothing. I didn't see anything from you or the anti-NATO/Pro-Russians except excuses, rationalizations, and outright promotion of bullshit Russian lies and propaganda. I did see a little poem mocking NATO's support of Ukraine and Ukraine's courageous defense of itself. I suppose that's more fun than talking about all the dead Ukrainian civilians.

And this is what you focus on?

"GOTCHA ZELENSKY! GOTCHA ZELENSKY!"

Ukraine's crime in your mind is not already surrendering.

**** THAT!

It's disgusting what the pro Russians in this thread support.
sheltering in civilian populations during a war of airstrikes and artillery is calling down strikes on your troops knowing they are using civilians in an attempt to place troops for operational use is a deliberate crime

I dont follow all the daily grind. I did see something about Kyiv hitting a POW camp which of course you denied and spun

In your mind Ukraine can do anything and Russia cant do anything; well that's not how it works
On Bucha the clothes arent dirty, you cant see faces and bodies are always buried quickly bodies shown in some footage did not show characteristic signs of degradation that would be expected after a number of days.

But my point stands. we want this war to degrade Russia, we made zero attempts to prevent it and over the years changed Ukraine (Kyiv faction) from neutral to pro-west
 

W_Heisenberg

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
17,859
Reaction score
15,117
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
4,932
Reaction score
3,907
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
take it up with Amnesty

sheltering in civilian populations during a war of airstrikes and artillery is calling down strikes on your troops knowing they are using civilians in an attempt to place troops for operational use is a deliberate crime

I dont follow all the daily grind. I did see something about Kyiv hitting a POW camp which of course you denied and spun

In your mind Ukraine can do anything and Russia cant do anything; well that's not how it works
On Bucha the clothes arent dirty, you cant see faces and bodies are always buried quickly bodies shown in some footage did not show characteristic signs of degradation that would be expected after a number of days.

But my point stands. we want this war to degrade Russia, we made zero attempts to prevent it and over the years changed Ukraine (Kyiv faction) from neutral to pro-west
If the Russians are trying to take cities and villages by military means, you will find Ukrainian military in those villages and cities defending them by trying to keep the Russian military out. What is the alternative? There is absolutely nothing in the Geneva convention that suggest that you are not allowed to defend yourself from an invading power if you are a populated area. That is what Amnesty, and you are implying, and it is ludicrous.
 

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
4,932
Reaction score
3,907
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
Bellingcat doing it's usual amazing investigative work here:

Hope they get him before he can hurt someone else but he is a has-been no matter what. Russia will let him fight until he is killed or kill him themselves. They do not want him back in Russia no matter what, I mean, who would want a person like that running around in your society?

(Actually, even if Russia are premiering assaults and war crimes against Ukrainians, they have shown that they have a limit for those that re-enter their own society by arresting the soldier who raped a three year old.)
 

Yakshi

My inner child hates the other inner children
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
9,268
Reaction score
9,332
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Hope they get him before he can hurt someone else but he is a has-been no matter what. Russia will let him fight until he is killed or kill him themselves. They do not want him back in Russia no matter what, I mean, who would want a person like that running around in your society?

(Actually, even if Russia are premiering assaults and war crimes against Ukrainians, they have shown that they have a limit for those that re-enter their own society by arresting the soldier who raped a three year old.)

That's what I have heard too, and it even extends to the russian soldiers who invaded Donbas in 2014, became too well known as russians for a russia that kept insisting that the resistance was Ukrainian led, and one way or another ended up shot, exploded, or otherwise erased.
 

justoneman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2022
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
972
Not quite imediately
Germany rolled into Poland on Sept 1st . France and the UK declared war on Germany on Sept 3rd. Pretty much immediately. They probably had vague information about the nature of the event in the first day.
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,405
Reaction score
6,556
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Dear Comrade @anatta,

Thank you for your alert exposure of the lies of the Ukrainian fascist cockroach's. Using Amnesty International, let us correct the record and demonstrate the noble, humanitarian, and heroic actions of the liberators:

Here is what the the NAZI's claim:



But the math is a LIE! We must incorporate the awesome findings of Amnesty International:

17,300 million attacks on civilian infrastructures (war crimes) MINUS 33 found to have some evidence of Ukrainian military presence (assuming all 33 military sites were attacked by Russia). So we must adjust to the totals of civilian and militarily legitimate military targets.

There was ONLY 17,267 attacks (war crimes) committed by our heroic military rather than 17,300 as claimed by Ukraine! And there was 333 legitimate targets rather than 300.

Therefore, let us ignore 17,267 war crimes by Russia and speak only of the 33 incidents by Ukraine found by Amnesty International.

(I hope my sarcasm was unmistakable).
 
Last edited:

Rogue Valley

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
78,172
Reaction score
63,068
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Where is the Amnesty report concerning Russia using the Ukraine nuclear facility at Enerhodar as a "protected" artillery park to fire at nearby Ukrainian held towns?

Either Ukraine returns fire risking international condemnation and a nuclear incident, or Ukrainian forces allow Russian forces to continue firing on Ukrainian positions from an effective ‘safe zone'.

This has been going on now for weeks. Where is THIS Amnesty report?
 
Last edited:

Rogue Valley

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
78,172
Reaction score
63,068
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent

8.5.22
Amnesty International issued a report on Thursday accusing the Ukrainian military of stationing its troops and artillery near hospitals, schools and residential buildings in ways that may amount to war crimes. The international human rights organization says it spent two months in Ukraine interviewing locals and collecting physical evidence to compile the report. "Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas," the report states. The report got harsh pushback from Ukrainian officials and civil society leaders. Perhaps the most surprising criticism came from Amnesty's very own Ukraine operation. "We did everything we could to prevent this report from going public," wrote Oksana Pokalchuk, Amnesty Ukraine's leader on Facebook. She and her team claim that there are several discrepancies in the report, which was compiled by foreign observers, without any assistance from local staff.] "Every single member of Amnesty's Ukraine office knows that only the Russian Federation bears responsibility for the crime of aggression against Ukraine, not the least of which because several of our colleagues had to leave everything behind to save themselves and their families," reads Amnesty Ukraine's statement.


Amnesty International Ukraine does not agree with the report issued by the parent organization.
 

Roadvirus

Heading North
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
31,016
Reaction score
18,670
Location
Tennessee, USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
NATO expansion ( remember the chess analogy) is by definition a switch from a defensive posture to aggressive
It's aggression from Russia that is causing NATO's expansion. Russia's neighbors don't feel safe anymore because of Putzin and his delusions of rebuilding the USSR
 

Roadvirus

Heading North
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
31,016
Reaction score
18,670
Location
Tennessee, USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
While I hope Ukraine can come up with more artillery the Donbas is not as important as Kherson. I'd gladly trade the whole of the Donbas for recovery of the southern coastline. I believe that is the attitude of the Ukrainians as well.
This 👆

Retaking the southern areas will really hurt Russia. It'd make their logistics bases in Crimea & ships in the Black Sea/Sea of Azov vulnerable to anti-ship fire & HIMARs and make Odessa much more harder for Ivan to hit.
 

Quag

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
32,197
Reaction score
15,094
Location
Earth
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Germany rolled into Poland on Sept 1st . France and the UK declared war on Germany on Sept 3rd. Pretty much immediately. They probably had vague information about the nature of the event in the first day.
Britain sent an ultimatum to Germany to cease hostilities or a state of war would exist between Great Britain and Germany. Germany declined to reply and the war with Britain started. France did the same declaring war a few hours after Britain. If it was immediate Britain would have instantly been at war once the invasion began, hence my comment that it want quite immediately.
 

Roadvirus

Heading North
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
31,016
Reaction score
18,670
Location
Tennessee, USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative

W_Heisenberg

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
17,859
Reaction score
15,117
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
NATO expansion ( remember the chess analogy) is by definition a switch from a defensive posture to aggressive we never had to expand NATO. all members involved with Gorbachev negotiations realized this and assured Gorby we had no designs on Russian redlines. we blew right past that, and even when it was crunch time with Russia massing on Uk borderand asking us to take it's redlines seriously - well you know we told Russia to **** off.and then act like "why is Russia so aggressive?

I think it's very important to point out the following...

NATO is a defensive alliance that sovereign nations join voluntarily.

Therefore, the argument you're using -- which you've borrowed directly from Putin -- is predicated on one of the two following assumptions:

1. The countries that joined NATO after the collapse of the Soviet Union are not independent, sovereign countries who can make foreign policy decisions separate from the Russian government.

OR

2. It is inevitable that the countries that joined NATO will eventually be attacked by Russia.

So, Putin's implicit argument is this: "We have a right to decide what former 'neutral' or former Soviet Republics do with respect to their foreign policy."

Or, Putin's implicit argument is this: "HEY!!! Stop letting these countries join NATO! We hope to invade or control them one day! That's not fair!"

In my view, one of the two above assumptions are required to make NATO expansion "aggressive" from the Russian point of view.

But it's not aggression that is motivating Russia's actions, it's Russia's weakened geopolitical position. Now, you can make the argument that NATO expansion weakens Russia's geopolitical position, but Russia has no ****ing right to any sort of geopolitical position, weak or strong. So Putin can whine all day long about his stupid red-lines, but Putin's red-lines don't give Russia any justification for anything. The NATO countries have ZERO obligation to strengthen Russia's geopolitical position for Russia. The NATO countries have ZERO obligation to respect Putin's red-lines.

However, Russia has an obligation to refrain from invading its neighbors.

And if you don't want the U.S. to help Ukraine due to selfish reasons, that's fine, but be honest that the real reason you don't want NATO or the U.S. to help Ukraine is that you just don't give a shit about them. You don't need more of a justification than that. Why even bother with all this idiotic Russian propaganda and these Russian talking points that can be dis-proven with ease?
 
Last edited:

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
4,932
Reaction score
3,907
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
NATO is a defensive alliance that sovereign nations join voluntarily.
@anatta

As a citizens of one of those countries that at the moment has applied for membership I want to emphasize this and add: Of one's own wishes and supported by the population of the applying state (a NATO requirement for approving an application)

I also take the opportunity to repeat to you ones again (since you seem to have skipped reading my previous posts in the matter): It was Russia’s aggression toward Ukraine and for that matter the threats made toward Sweden that turned the population towards a membership in NATO and made our Government apply. It did not exist before. We liked being independent.

Edit: For Finland it was very much Russia breaking previous agreements with the Ukraine and violating international agreements that they signed. Before Finland has always balanced the relationship with Russia and they have had a close relationship since WW2. But if a nation can make a deal one day and break it the next without a flicker, there is not much use to try and maintain a relationship is there?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom