[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

[W_Heisenberg]

Beautiful.

A sight to behold.

 

[kaerin]

Beautiful.

A sight to behold.

yeah, it's almost poetic

 

[EnigmaO01]

Ukraine war: Russia accuses US of direct role in Ukraine war

Moscow accuses the US of directly approving targets for US-made artillery used by Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

---

Inside the Ukrainian city that said no to occupation

Ukrainian President Zelenskyy has designated Okhtyrka a 'Hero City of Ukraine,' an honorary title awarded only to one other northeastern city, Kharkiv.

Sergei Lavrov is whining again? No surprise there. How dare we help a country keep it's sovereignty against an invading country that doesn't even regard civilians humanely. You're damn right we are providing target information all the way down to GPS coordinates via our sattelites and other methods. Cry me a river Sergei! You're supposed to be the mighty Russia. What's the problem? Your corruption and incompetence has undermined your military success?

 

[maxparrish]

 

[Felis Leo]

This is a great thread giving an overview of the Ukrainian strategy in this war:

If this truly is the Ukrainian's strategy, it is a smart one. If there is one thing the Russians have proven they are masters at, it is massed rolling artillery bombardments, indiscriminate of civilian life and infrastructure. The Ukrainians do not have the capacity to trade fire with the Russians, tank for tank, artillery piece for artillery piece.

They cannot fight the Russian beast directly. But if they starve the beast, they have a chance.

 

[Tangmo]

Gen Robert E Lee will not advice that. When Lee was in a similar fix at Richmond facing McClellan's juggernaut he did not split up his Armies to send a portion elsewhere. He brought Thomas Jackson down from the Shenandoah Valley to add to his mobile forces; with which forces he pulled off that end run around the Union right.

Lee was a career engineer who at times such as the Mexican-American War became a combat engineer, but Lee did not spend his long career commanding the 3 combat forces in action, ie, Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry. In fact Union soldiers derisively called Lee the "King of Spades" for all the career digging he did as an engineer.

Union Gen. Scott offered Lee nominal command for demographic and historical reasons, ie, Lee was in a prominent Virginia family that connected personally with Gen. Washington in the War of Independence (Gen. "Lighthorse" Harry Lee).

A fatal error was that until after Gettysburg in summer 1863 that was a huge defeat Lee had consistently taken to the offensive he knew little about which expended troops -- that were not replaceable. Indeed, Gettysburg highlighted Lee's great weakness throughout the war that, when failing to turn Union flanks, eg, Little Round Top at Gettysburg, he blew his stack and attacked the Union center (Cemetery Ridge at Gettysburg where 8000 Union Infantry destroyed three Confederate divisions including Picketts between breakfast and lunch). It was a shooting gallery. After Gettysburg Lee was toast and so was the Confederacy.

Lee's victories before Gettysburg were the bungling affairs of Union generals such as McClellan et al. Once the Ohio Boys Grant and Sherman took command Lee was fried chicken.

 

[JANFU]

 

[JANFU]

Lots of things Russian going boom boom in Kherson

 

[Yakshi]

I am pretty sure that Chornobaevka had been the source of jokes among my Ukrainian students because of how many times russian forces tried to take an airport there but repeatedly suffered heavy losses, thus becoming a meme about russian incompetence and repeated willingness to send its soldiers to slaughter.

Sounds like russia wants to breathe new life into the old joke.

Edit to add: Guess it even made wikipedia.

2022 Chornobaivka attacks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[justoneman]

You were whining because they weren't retreating.

They aren't fighting for the money. The goal is defeating the Russian Rape and Pillage Army.

Ukraine needs to win some big battle. Standing ground and losing is not winning a battle. Retreating is not winning a battle.

 

[maxparrish]

Sergei Lavrov is whining again? No surprise there. How dare we help a country keep it's sovereignty against an invading country that doesn't even regard civilians humanely. You're damn right we are providing target information all the way down to GPS coordinates via our sattelites and other methods. Cry me a river Sergei! You're supposed to be the mighty Russia. What's the problem? Your corruption and incompetence has undermined your military success?

I am trying to grasp exactly why Lavrov and others like him relentlessly rant that the US is helping Ukraine in a proxy war. To a westerner (or at least to me) it sounds rather like an irrational fit of frustration whose cause of wounded indignation is completely opaque.

Does he think Russia is "special" and gets to invade and set out to destroy a nation of 40 million people as a form of privilege? Is it so self-centered as to believe that Ukraine friendly nations don't, likewise, have the same right to help Ukraine survive its criminal onslaught?

How dumb and clueless can some Russian's be as the neighborhood bully trying to kill a weak innocent, and then have the hutzpah to scream foul when the victims neighbors and passersby's attempt to save the victim?

When Putin said "We don't think like you" it may have been the most truthful thing ever to come out of his mouth.

 

[Roadvirus]

But Zelensky prefers to split his Armies. Have one piece holding off the Orc Army in the Donbass while another piece goes after Kherson.

It forces Russia to split up too.
Split up manpower
Split up supplies
Make supply lines more vulnerable.

If you thought like a military strategist instead of a pessimistic Putzin Admirer, you'd be able to figure that out on your own.

That's a bad decision unless you enjoy overwhelming superiority over the Russians.

What superiority?

 

[Roadvirus]

I am trying to grasp exactly why Lavrov and others like him relentlessly rant that the US is helping Ukraine in a proxy war.

Putzin and his butt buddies are upset because we are making them look like incompetent boobs.

 

[Juin]

Lee was a career engineer who at times such as the Mexican-American War became a combat engineer, but Lee did not spend his long career commanding the 3 combat forces in action, ie, Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry. In fact Union soldiers derisively called Lee the "King of Spades" for all the career digging he did as an engineer.

Glad you shared that. I also happened to have come across "King of Spades" in one of the books I read on the Peninsula campaign. I cannot recall off head which. In that case it was the Richmond papers who took to calling Lee "King of Spades".

Basically Confederate Gen Joseph E Johnston was playing it from same playbook as Union Gen George B McClellan. Lock horns. A hopeless situation for the Confederate Army, as it was a situation of the Confederate ram locking horns with the Union bull. Johnston could get crushed by the Union bull, or retreat past Richmond. It was gameover for the Confederate Army. That is until some Union soldier did the craziest thing: he shot the Joseph E Johnston, the Confederate Commander. Taking out the enemy Commander is almost always a good thing, but not in that situation. And Johnston did not die; but Command was handed over to Robert E Lee. Given the harm that Lee went on to inflict on the Army of Potomac, the Union Army should have Court Martialled whoever shot Joseph E Johnston. With Johnston Quarterbacking there was a good chance the war would have been over in 1862 instead of years later.

Anyways Lee pulled out a different playbook. He pulled out AP Hill, DH Hill, Longstreet from the line for an end run on the Union right. This was dangerous, as it seriously weakened the Confederate line facing the Union juggernaut. To help make things up Lee handed out spades to the Confederate soldiers to set up earthworks before Richmond. Of course the Confederate grunt hated spade work, and in all likelihood grumbled loud and long. This got to the ears of the Richmond journalists, who took to referring to Lee in their papers as "King of Spades".

But it was no joking matter. With AP Hill, DH Lill and Longstreet pulled from the line, the front before McClellan was severely weakend. Time was of the essence. Gen McGrudder's stage craft, faking a huge army by firing canons, could fool the Union juggernaut only so long. The Hills, Longtreet took off on the sprint north, to turn the Union right. Jackson, marching down from the Valley was to get there hopefully in time to add more punch to the end run..

But you know the rest of the story. I will leave it at that.

Union Gen. Scott offered Lee nominal command for demographic and historical reasons, ie, Lee was in a prominent Virginia family that connected personally with Gen. Washington in the War of Independence (Gen. "Lighthorse" Harry Lee).

"Lighthorse" Harry Lee. Wish you expanded on that. There has to be a story behind the "Lighthorse" nickname

A fatal error was that until after Gettysburg in summer 1863 that was a huge defeat Lee had consistently taken to the offensive he knew little about which expended troops -- that were not replaceable. Indeed, Gettysburg highlighted Lee's great weakness throughout the war that, when failing to turn Union flanks, eg, Little Round Top at Gettysburg, he blew his stack and attacked the Union center (Cemetery Ridge at Gettysburg where 8000 Union Infantry destroyed three Confederate divisions including Picketts between breakfast and lunch). It was a shooting gallery. After Gettysburg Lee was toast and so was the Confederacy.

Lee's victories before Gettysburg were the bungling affairs of Union generals such as McClellan et al. Once the Ohio Boys Grant and Sherman took command Lee was fried chicken.

Correct, and thanks

 

[justoneman]

It forces Russia to split up too.
Split up manpower
Split up supplies
Make supply lines more vulnerable.

If you thought like a military strategist instead of a pessimistic Putzin Admirer, you'd be able to figure that out on your own.



What superiority?

Spitting up forces by Ukraine is foolish in most cases. I am sure this exact thing is why Russia was able to so quickly take the power plant last week.

 

[Juin]

It forces Russia to split up too.
Split up manpower
Split up supplies
Make supply lines more vulnerable.

Russia does not have to split up if she is not planning to take to the offensive at Kharkiv or Kherson before finishing up in the Donbass. Only what is needed to hold the grounds there need be sent there. That means the bulk of the Orc Army remains in the Donbass until the job is done.

If you thought like a military strategist instead of a pessimistic Putzin Admirer, you'd be able to figure that out on your own.

Is it too much to ask of you to accurately describe my position? I believe Russia is doing fine. You think otherwise, fine. Am I supposed to describe you as a pessimist on your side's chances when clearly you argue otherwise?

 

[Quag]

Ukraine needs to win some big battle. Standing ground and losing is not winning a battle. Retreating is not winning a battle.

Why do you post here?

 

[justoneman]

Why do you post here?

In this thread I post because there is an onslaught of fake Ukraine news. I fight against a sea of it so people can at least get a glimpse of reality. I want the truth about who is winning and who is losing, so that perhaps people might pause and not be chomping at the bit, to get directly involved in this European conflict.

Why do you post here?

 

[Juin]

Spitting up forces by Ukraine is foolish in most cases. I am sure this exact thing is why Russia was able to so quickly take the power plant last week.

And it is exactly what Napoleon Bonaparte had in mind when he cautioned never to interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

And it is more than even the power plant last week. It is heating up in the environs of Bakhmut and the northern environs of Donetsk City. The beauty about tweeter is you can tell when action is heating up at a spot. There is a perceptible increase in frequency of tweets. How long before Bakhmut falls, no one can say. But the jaws of the Orc Army are closing in fast. Bakhmut should be a cauldron in days.

 

[justoneman]

Is it too much to ask of you to accurately describe my position? I believe Russia is doing fine. You think otherwise, fine. Am I supposed to describe you as a pessimist on your side's chances when clearly you argue otherwise?

A pessimist to him, is anyone not actively promoting optomistic news about Ukraine's chances in this conflict.

 

[flogger]

I've often thought the Russian strategy is fairly simple in Ukraine after its initial defeats near Kiev. Putin is basically saying you either bend to my will and do as I say or your 14 million displaced refugees won't have a home or infrastructure to return to even if I cant defeat you militarily on the battlefield . Putin will literally freeze out western resolve to keep supporting Ukraine this winter and with Pelosi's visit to Taiwan it seems probable the Chinese may in response start supplying Russia with the high tech weaponry and drones it urgently needs in order to prevail. Something it has not already done

Either way Ukraine loses and Russia only has to wait it out for a few more months for the events I have outlined ultimately to unfold

 

[Schrott]

Russia does not have to split up if she is not planning to take to the offensive at Kharkiv or Kherson before finishing up in the Donbass. Only what is needed to hold the grounds there need be sent there. That means the bulk of the Orc Army remains in the Donbass until the job is done.




Is it too much to ask of you to accurately describe my position? I believe Russia is doing fine. You think otherwise, fine. Am I supposed to describe you as a pessimist on your side's chances when clearly you argue otherwise?

But Russia is spliting up its forces. Moving troops from the East to the South to counter any offensive by the Ukraine in the Kherson Oblast.
I told you this would happen 4 or 6 weeks ago.
If the Kherson Oblast falls to the Ukraine, then Russia is seriously fooked. That could be the Domino, which brings the Russian card house tumbling down.

Russia is not doing fine, it is in trouble and the Western weapons arriving on the frontline are blowing the crap out of its military infrastructure and command structure. If you have to use anti ship and anti air rockets to hit ground targets, T62, T82U and early CW APCS, you are not doing fine, you are in trouble.

 

[Juin]

.Juin said:
Gen Robert E Lee will not advice that. When Lee was in a similar fix at Richmond facing McClellan's juggernaut he did not split up his Armies to send a portion elsewhere. He brought Thomas Jackson down from the Shenandoah Valley to add to his mobile forces; with which forces he pulled off that end run around the Union right.

What a pile of stinking horse shit. You talk, brag, and bloviate a lot, but you know very little about what you're talking about.

When Lee fought Hooker a year later near the same area at the Battle of Chancellorsville Lee divided his forces before and during the battle.

Gen. Lee would advise that splitting your forces depends on the circumstances.

Thanks, Heisenberg for weighing in on what is a favourite hobby of mine.

As a matter of fact, Lee split his forces during the Seven Days Battles as well, if we go with your understanding of what "split" is. Lee did pull out Hill, Hill and Longstreet to send north for his end run around the Union right, leaving behind Huger and Macgruder to hold the line.

And at Austerlitz Napoleon Bonaparte also split his forces. His right was weak, deliberately so, but also dangerously so because Davout's III Corps which was to prevent a rout of the weakened French right was 70 miles away, and had to complete that march in 48 hours to be on time. If the Allies fell for the weakened right, and pressed hard there, their center was weakened, and available for a killer charge from Soult.

I believe your problem is that a simplicity of intellect on your part does not allow you to grasp what Napoleon meant when he cautioned against splitting of forces. You leave the impression that to you punching with both hands in a single battle is what Napoleon meant by splitting forces.

At Austerlitz Napoleon made sure that for that encounter his force will all be in place. He did not send Davout to go charging out of that theater so as to somehow hope that his adversaries would send part of their forces after Davout. They wouldnt have.

 

[Schrott]

I've often thought the Russian strategy is fairly simple in Ukraine after its initial defeats near Kiev. Putin is basically saying you either bend to my will and do as I say or your 14 million displaced refugees won't have a home or infrastructure to return to even if I cant defeat you militarily on the battlefield . Putin will literally freeze out western resolve to keep supporting Ukraine this winter and with Pelosi's visit to Taiwan it seems probable the Chinese may in response start supplying Russia with the high tech weaponry and drones it urgently needs in order to prevail. Something it has not already done

Either way Ukraine loses and Russia only has to wait it out for a few more months for the events I have outlined ultimately to unfold

Fantasy.

 

[Schrott]

.Juin said:
Gen Robert E Lee will not advice that. When Lee was in a similar fix at Richmond facing McClellan's juggernaut he did not split up his Armies to send a portion elsewhere. He brought Thomas Jackson down from the Shenandoah Valley to add to his mobile forces; with which forces he pulled off that end run around the Union right.





Thanks, Heisenberg for weighing in on what is a favourite hobby of mine.

As a matter of fact, Lee split his forces during the Seven Days Battles as well, if we go with your understanding of what "split" is. Lee did pull out Hill, Hill and Longstreet to send north for his end run around the Union right, leaving behind Huger and Macgruder to hold the line.

And at Austerlitz Napoleon Bonaparte also split his forces. His right was weak, deliberately so, but also dangerously so because Davout's III Corps which was to prevent a rout of the weakened French right was 70 miles away, and had to complete that march in 48 hours to be on time. If the Allies fell for the weakened right, and pressed hard there, their center was weakened, and available for a killer charge from Soult.

I believe your problem is that a simplicity of intellect on your part does not allow you to grasp what Napoleon meant when he cautioned against splitting of forces. You leave the impression that to you punching with both hands in a single battle is what Napoleon meant by splitting forces.

At Austerlitz Napoleon made sure that for that encounter his force will all be in place. He did not send Davout to go charging out of that theater so as to somehow hope that his adversaries would send part of their forces after Davout. They wouldnt have.

But this is what Napoleon did after Russia, he split is forces over and over again, trying to stand of the 2 prong attacks from the Allies, which in the end defeated him. Russia is very limited concerning fully trained troops, it has hardly any number 1 left, same with equipment.
Plan a did not work, plan B cost to many number 1 troops, what is plan C?