Ukraine Parliament pleading for more help; NATO fiddles, Ukraine Burns

[Phys251]

We have to remember that the "Biden administration" is run by a group of woke-influenced ladies and gentlemen.

President Biden simply reads what his "advisers" have put on the teleprompter.

President Biden, according to many Washington insiders, has never been especially gifted with the ability to make good decisions, and now he is even less able to because of the ravages of age and cognitive challenges (perhaps due in part to his past brain operations).

We are all hoping against hope that the good people in the Russian government will act to stop this sickening rape of Ukraine and the indescribable suffering of the millions of refugees leaving their country.

Instead of coming in with BDS, explain what the US should do short of getting into a hot war with Russia.

 

[Serenity]

Ordinary, everyday Ukrainian people need our help. We must ignore the Russia apologists, stop partisan squabbling and continue to do whatever we can do to help.

 

[maxparrish]

Bozo Biden and his people have found a new favorite catchphrase: "Don't want to escalate things".

Uh...TOO LATE!! Putzin is escalating things. Look at Mariupol! It's a fracking wasteland now! Look at this article...before and after pics:

Ukraine-Russia war: Satellite images reveal fires, severe damage to residential buildings in Mariupol

Satellite images taken on Saturday reveal destruction and damage to residential buildings, as well as a hospital, in Mariupol, Ukraine, as Russia's ongoing war with the country continues.

www.foxnews.com

Yes, we ought to give some thought as to why "escalation" is a taboo word in the liberal lexicon. I recall the same nonsense during the Vietnam war, every time the NVA and VC would make a new move... and a response was proposed, the word "escalation" sent a shudder through even the architects of the war in the Johnson administration. We spent 8 years in a war, constantly crippled by self imposed limits and unable to do what it would take to even have a chance at securing victory.

H.R. McMaster wrote a great book on the Johnson administration and the pentagon military, and how every single military action was subject to how it might affect the polls, what it might cost to LBJ's domestic agenda, what kind of backlash LBJ would get from the far left anti-war ranks of his party, and its impact on public image. NO CHOICE was ever made on the basis of a strategy for victory or for exit.

Hence "escalation" became a sin, as did just giving up and withdrawing. Johnson must have started and stopped bombing of North Vietnam two dozen times, he must have made at least 60 attempts at finding a way to negotiate with NV, he fiddled and diddled, cutting target lists and providing continual small increments on new troops trying to avoid the moral sin" of escalating and making the NVA really, really, mad.

It was almost as dumb as how Biden is conducting the current war. A leader with good sense and a backbone would know that "escalation" is not profane, its what you do if you want to win. Putin knows that, which is why he has been escalating since the day he ordered the invasion.

But just like nam, we sit here fretting about "what do we do now". The answer is in front of us, as it was in WWII:

Do everything you can, as quickly as possible, up to the point that that it's too costly. IF you haven't won then, you decide if its best to get the f' out.

"Shock and awe" without boots on the ground means exactly that...maximum sanctions, maximum weapons, maximum supply from the moment the invasion began.

 

[Roadvirus]

The plane deal was a bad idea. It would lead to expanded war.

Putzin IS DESTROYING WHOLE CITIES! It's already "expanded"!

By the time Bozo Biden decides to pull his head out of his ass, there'll be NOTHING LEFT in Ukraine for the refugees to go home to.

 

[ChickenTendies]

The death of the award-winning documentary filmmaker Brent Renaud, shot and killed in Irpin (his partner taken to a hospital) has galavanized the Ukrainian parliament to plead again for NATO to provide greater assistance and air cover... so far Biden, NATO, and the EU remain silent to these pleas.

Since the story broke on the request for air cover, or planes, more than a week ago I have noted the following:

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, General Keene (Ret), General Kellog (Ret), Admiral Stavridis (former head of Nato), and General McMaster have generally, and specifically made the following points:

- Putin can't win the city in any conventional sense (urban warfare) so he has and will continue to increase aerial bombardments, and the "Jewel of the Eastern World" and "Garden City" Kiev, will be reduced to rubble and ash. A city of 3 million, now reduced to 1.5 to 2 million, is destined to mass killing and destruction...a landscape of Stalingrad or Hiroshima, without more help. It will play out over weeks, perhaps months, but it will happen if NATO and Biden's do not find the courage to respond.​

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- The Ukrainian military with more assistance from the west could actually on its own expel Russian forces from Ukraine. There are two paths, either continue the self-defeating limitations on arms and see Ukraine bleed and bleed in a stalemate or break the stalemate by seriously providing Ukraine with larger weapons and MIGs and SUs.​

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- The west, apparently, is still making a distinction between defensive and offensive arms. If so, it would partially explain why unmanned combat vehicles, unmanned combat drones, cruise missiles, and armor has not been supplied. At this point THIS DISTINCITION is jaw dropping stupid, and a gift to Puin in a full-scale war.​

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- If we don't want to get dragged into a protracted war in Europe, the BEST thing is now lavishly supply Ukraine with the best and most powerful arms. Had we done so before the invasion, either Russia would have been thrown out by now or Russia would never dared invade. There is still a whole lot of wishful thinking in the Biden administration...very foolish and self-defeating.​

- Larger surface to air missile batteries are essential. The S-300 and/or the French medium systems are available and should have been shipped.​

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- AWACs in NATO airspace could provide early warning to Ukrainian pilots and bases, especially with those gifted to Ukraine (they have NATO frequency radios).​

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- Admiral Stavridis has urged getting all those MIG fighters to Lviv and build air defenses out from there.​

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- General Kellog said "we keep coming up with reasons not to do something rather than to do something".​

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- Gen Keene said Putin is putting fear in us, because we show intimidation it invites more intimidation and coercion.​

The bitter fruits of Biden, NATO, and the wests failure to grasp these essential points is now being served. The Russians, seeing our reaction have done the following:

1) Bombed a large training base next to Poland, killing 35 (and likely wounding 90 more). That bold move is intended to preclude its use in training Ukrainians on better western arms systems.​

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2) Bombed two Western airfields that could have been used to receive and base the gifted NATO-Polish Migs.​

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3) Announced that: "Convoys of foreign weapons, which are thoughtlessly supplied to Ukraine, will be legitimate targets for the Russian Armed Forces."​

Let us hope Churchill was right when he said: "AMERICANS WILL ALWAYS DO THE RIGHT THING AFTER EXHAUSTING THE ALTERNATIVES." Those alternatives have been exhausted. Time to act NOW.

You have to consider whether the Ukrainians are even able to operate said "best and most powerful arms"

 

[Rogue Valley]

You have to consider whether the Ukrainians are even able to operate said "best and most powerful arms"

Which was why the MiG-29 suggestion garnered agreement among so many.

Don't imagine the Ukrainians are dummies. They operate the largest nuclear power facility in Europe.

 

[Threegoofs]

Putzin IS DESTROYING WHOLE CITIES! It's already "expanded"!

By the time Bozo Biden decides to pull his head out of his ass, there'll be NOTHING LEFT in Ukraine for the refugees to go home to.

I think you don’t grasp the concept of ‘expanded war’.

 

[Antiwar]

At least your title kind of acknowledges that NATO has similarities to Rome.

 

[maxparrish]

You have to consider whether the Ukrainians are even able to operate said "best and most powerful arms"

It should go without saying that of course arms that can be learned without a formal training period is priority. However, it is also true that arms that require training is a matter of doing so in NATO countries and then sending the equipment and trained Ukrainians to Ukraine.

 

[maxparrish]

At least your title kind of acknowledges that NATO has similarities to Rome.

And at least if you got that, you know who the barbarians at the gate are.

 

[Napoleon]

Don’t give anything to Ukraine that you don’t want Russia to have.

 

[ChickenTendies]

Which was why the MiG-29 suggestion garnered agreement among so many.

Don't imagine the Ukrainians are dummies. They operate the largest nuclear power facility in Europe.

The MiG-29 is an old soviet era plane that Ukraine has had plenty of experience with, whereas they have little to no experience with modern Western lethal aid.

 

[Hamish Howl]

You have to consider whether the Ukrainians are even able to operate said "best and most powerful arms"

Judging from all the burned out Russian tanks and APCs, they seem to be managing this just fine.

So we give them more.

 

[Common Sense 1]

GZP leader trump continues to praise tin. russki repub liars and traitors support russia while lying about supporting Ukraine. russia/china tactics

Brother this post is off the extremely silly chart. Babble about president Trump.
Forgetting Brandon is in charge......
Sinking fast.

 

[ChickenTendies]

Judging from all the burned out Russian tanks and APCs, they seem to be managing this just fine.

So we give them more.

Giving them javelins and easy use anti-tank weapons is a far-cry from giving them our best.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Giving them javelins and easy use anti-tank weapons is a far-cry from giving them our best.

Good enough is good enough. More crispy Russian armored vehicles = better.

 

[charliebrown]

Short of getting into a hot war with Russia, what more can we do?

We can sit and watch the killing fields!!! It will make for a great lesson some day how society continues to repeat history over and over again.
What does the death count need to reach before the western world, any country at all, stands up and says enough is enough. The US has a very high tolerance level for death. We actively watch citizen die around us every day of the year at an amazingly high rate (@25Kper year) murders. We actively watch 75K people OD every year in this country. Don't even want to go over the number of people we watch eating themselves to death in this country. I am going to say at least a million Ukranians will have to die before the US does anything impactful that would stop the killing quickly.

My guess is that Putin will starve the people out of Ukraine before a million people are killed.

 

[Antiwar]

And at least if you got that, you know who the barbarians at the gate are.

You've spun it to what you want to talk about; go ahead and spit it out.