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UK PM: Multiculturalism has failed



Multicultural to me simply meant accepting that there are people of different cultures living in the UK. It was brought in at a time when the people of this country were themselves throwing away the repression with which they had been brought up.

I see two sides to the PC stuff. One was people hired to make a living out of it and at times not being able to find enough just making up ridiculous items – for instance that it is racist to call a black board a black board and that did happen...and secondly that people were unable to understand the basic premise of this or possibly that their own feelings were so ingrained with prejudice. They did what they had to but privately they held on to their prejudice. Because of this they were unable to come to proper conclusions as to the correct way to act. Take the issue of forced marriages. This is not acceptable in this country and the police and laws should have been making sure women were protected....or police claiming they felt unable to arrest Muslims for rape. That is the worst of the lot and shows unfortunately just how unwell some of our people are. The problem is not PC. The problem is entrenched prejudice.
 
But as you pointed out, PC has entrenched prejudice of its own. It is indeed built on it. It's also blind to its own consequences too.

And as for Multiculturalism, there seems to be the deliberately misleading attitude put into the young that you can't have MultiCulti without immigration. And if you don't like immigration (regardless of reason) then you're a beyond-the-pale bigot. Indeed, polticians made talk of immigration taboo for years, until they had to talk about it when too many people threatened to vote BNP just to have their voice heard again.

There was no need for MultiCulti, even if there was one for immigration. The two aren't indivisible and there was nothing wrong in having a monocultural society.
 
I've shown quite thoroughly why it was fallacious.
Even proudly summarized and recapped it for the disingenuous apologists who frequent in this section:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/91870-uk-pm-multiculturalism-has-failed-12.html#post1059273138

And yet again..the 'Democracy Index' in no way needs to be brought in as a goofy ad-hom against Lee who, by all accounts, has run a very successful Multi-Ethnic, Multi-Racial state for 30 years.
Also again, his comments were made politley and with consideration, not as a lifelong 'crusader'.

I think the "fallacious posts" slur is your own projection once again. Happens quite a bit among some that aren't actually European but like to come and display their ignorance in this part of the forum.
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The nature of your post as well, is Emptily combative, having not a leg to stand on.
[Fallaciously] now suggesting, that because I'm not European that I can't make a credible contribution to this discussion. In this case, reminding the string of Merkel's previous comments and introducing those of the former Singapore PM.
And, As Always, Neither you nor a-blue has/could deal with 'meat' I posted; instead attacking both me and Lee.
You don't like it (and it's Damaging to your/others politics-as-fashion) so you attack instead of logical/coherent counter argument.

It's me whose pointed to/exposed ignorance, now Twice, not shown it.
 
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Andalublue said:
. Could you provide us with any evidence to back up this slightly astounding assertion?
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Step 1 -- identify British posters

Step 2 -- place cursor over their user name.

Step 3 -- click "View user posts"

Step 4 -- read history of replies on the subject
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
But as you pointed out, PC has entrenched prejudice of its own. It is indeed built on it. It's also blind to its own consequences too.
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If it is PC and that PC is going overboard then it is wrong and either based on people having little to do and inventing riduculous things or to do with people not understasnding prejudice generally because their own prejudice is so great. While I accept that there was some genuine PC stuff, I think that how the term is more often than not used now is to try and justify prejudice. For instance when we are not making sure that there are no forced marriages we are not helping Muslims women, we are not acting without prejudice.

Republic_Of_Public said:
And as for Multiculturalism, there seems to be the deliberately misleading attitude put into the young that you can't have MultiCulti without immigration.
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Well I am old and I have never heard of this but I have a youngish daughter and she does not have this idea. Mutlicultural or ac cepting people of different ethnic backgrounds is to do with the people who are already here. Immigration is a seperate issue.



If you believe there is too much immigration you get onto your MP. If you present your dislike of immigration as being because you have a particular dislike of non teutonic or celtic people then it is possible people might think you are a bigot but just having an argument about immigration would not make you one.

Republic_Of_Public said:
There was no need for MultiCulti, even if there was one for immigration. The two aren't indivisible and there was nothing wrong in having a monocultural society.
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well we do not have a monocultural society. http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/91912-national-socialism.html Have you been contributiing to this thread

I think that part of the problem is that England itself does not have much of a feeling of identity. As Andalablue pointed out some time ago, although people may feel a sense of belonging to for instance Yorkshire, they do not feel it so much with England. Hence it is more difficult to think of a monoculture for England even if everyone here was white and teutonic or celtic.

It is easier for places like Scotland and Wales to get minorities feeling they belong. For instance only 5% of Muslims feel they are English while 44% feel a Scottish identity. I was watching a program on Indian people bringing their Indian and Scottish culture together. They were doing this by ways of bringing Indian dance to Scotland or having their Indian restaurant presenting it's own version of haggis and the waiters wearing kilts. It is just easier when it is a smaller place. The biggest problems Muslims feel with integrating in Scotland is that the amount of drinking people get up to is...well difficult.

I think it would have been better if England had gone for it's regional assemblies. At the moment it does not offer all that much culture for people to be a part of. There is a lot involved.
 
Nice invocation of Godwin's Law there.

A monocultural society does not automatically mean monoracial or not having foreigners about, although you would expect it.

A multicultural society by default imples a 'take your pick' attitude to the very basics of nationhood, culture, morals and 'lifestyle choice'. How can you feel you belong to a country not your land of ethnic origin when you have no idea of anything but the way of life of your own people? And your average 'only white man left in the street' can feel very peculiar when the England he would or could have known has been swiped from under his feet.

And your 'you can feel you belong to Yorkshire but not England' is misleading because you can feel a localised pride which can manifest itself a tad differently from national pride. And national pride has been 'racism-ed' and shamed out of us. 'Ooo, the British Empire!' And history lessons were dire even when I was at school.



It's not to hate your neighbour to prefer a monocultural society but to retain that connection with the country's heritage, culture and your own roots. And to like to see anyone living here appreciate what this country was, is and how and why it came to be. Even my own (Polish) mother says it's a pity that England's not England any more and was as ironically as annoyed as anyone else to read that news story that the meat packers for ASDA and others were directly hiring Poles over English people here.
 
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If you want some potted Pros and Cons, here's what someone wrote:

Mono-cultural society vs multi -cultural society.Your thoughts please? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers



Following good comment:

 

Maybe you know different muslims than me. I could not tell you whether some of my friends were muslim or not if not for a) them not drinking alcohol and b) them not eating non-halal food.
The last nine years haven't passed me by, tyvm.
Claiming all muslims are jihadists is akin to saying all christians are crusaders.
 
Never said all Muslims are jihadists. Jihad is certainly an ingredient as is Islamism of whatever strain. MPAC are certainly Islamists, as well as what we're supposed to consider moderates.

And Muslims I've known? I once worked with a great chap called Imran. He was a cool, relaxed 'one of the lads' who confessed he hadn't sat to read the Koran in years, preferring just to live his life and have a nice time. Consequently we had no trouble from him at all, quite unlike more orthodox Muslims who make it their business to melt their brains with concentrated Hadiths, rant about the British Army and demand special bank accounts, numbers of wives and animal cruelty to suit their Sharia 'needs'.

'Nuff said!
 
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APPENDIX:

Australia certainly has the balls to realise that if you are going to try for MultiCulti then certain swaggering persons had damn well not act like cuckoos in the nest:

AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER TELL MUSLIMS..TAKE IT OR LEAVE!



And none of this rubbish either: Quran and Science

AUS imam: (Australian) PM (should) go and 'let the Muslims take over' in aus.politics - Usenet newsgroup

Fatwa: Australian Imam Urges Muslims to Behead Geert Wilders

Imam justifies rape of unveiled women



If Multi Culturalism means absorbing religious values which extend to fifth-columnists plotting takeovers, human rights abuses, incitement to murder or having sex with rotting animals then I say it needs to be re-worked or abolished!
 

Grant said:
Two other opinions on the subject from North American media.

Douglas Murray: Cameron's Multicultural Wake-Up Call - WSJ.com

Speaking hard truths about multiculturalism
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Why do you think Murray made his claims to American media and not also in the UK media?

I read your links and see that he totally ignores the background to Merckel's call that Multiculturalism in Germany had failed - i.e. that Germany has not allowed its muslim immigrant workers to assimilate or become German citizens. Posting in the US has allowed Murray to gloss over facts that would be unhelpful to his claims. Similarly, much was made of his claim the "UK is a terrorist hub," we certainly have problems but a "hub" it is not. The Swedish bomber that started his story off became inflamed as SAPO (Swedish intelligence) because of the Mohammed cartoons in Denmark not because he came to Britain and was "converted," he already had radical fundamentalist ideas when he got here. That was not mentioned at all by Murray.

As I stated on the failed "UK is a terrorist hub" thread - MI5 already have most of the suspects under watch and they explain the background. You can believe a neo-conservative British Journalist writing for the American market, I will believe the Swedish and UK intelligence services. Besides, it seems the real terrorist hubs of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are now shifting towards Yemen.

But you and your friend keep banging on with your agenda, it's entertaining to see you try and justify it.
 
mbig said:
I've shown quite thoroughly why it was fallacious --
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You think you did. Not the same thing as actually doing it though.

Republic_Of_Public said:
-- And if you don't like immigration (regardless of reason) then you're a beyond-the-pale bigot --
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I agreed your post beyond this element, the genetic and cultural history of the UK shows that only a tiny minority of true original Brits exist - saying you don't like immigration without explaining your reasoning (i.e. "if the UK is overcrowded" or "economic migration") puts a complainee in the position of being a bigot - especially if they target one minority group for spurious reasons.
 
mbig said:
And yet again..the 'Democracy Index' in no way needs to be brought in as a goofy ad-hom against Lee who, by all accounts, has run a very successful Multi-Ethnic, Multi-Racial state for 30 years.
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A very successful, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, non-democratic state for 30 years. My problem with taking lessons in community relations from Mr Lee is that Singapore is NOT the kind of society I would like tolive in, nor the kind I'd like my country to be. I think freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the plurality of artistic and personal expression is a beautiful, often surprising and sometimes messy feature of a democratic society. That is not what exists in Singapore.
Also again, his comments were made politley and with consideration, not as a lifelong 'crusader'.
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He has been a lifelong crusader for whatever makes businessmen happy.

Gardener said:
Step 1 -- identify British posters

Step 2 -- place cursor over their user name.

Step 3 -- click "View user posts"

Step 4 -- read history of replies on the subject
Click to expand...

Isn't that funny, you concede that British people are united in their support for the concept of multiculturalism, and somehow that tells you that we're all brainwashed... apart from your mate and the only sane and rational British poster on DP, RoP.
 
Again you repeat the Fallacy.
Not being to deal with what he says.
Whether Singapore was a perfect democracy or a democracy at all is IRRELEVANT.
Surely Cameron, who many here SAID they applauded is no match for Lee in experience in dealing with such a diverse population and problem.
And surely Lee was even more moderate in his remarks overall.

I'm going to ask for baiting sanctions (or a mental competency exam), if you continue just repeating this preposterous line.
But I gaurantee you'll continue to get 'likes' for these absurd posts from the emptiest dildos on this message board for denying what your confused political allies say they agree with... except when it comes up the very next time.
 
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mbig said:
Again you repeat the Fallacy.
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You've argued that it was fallacious. I don't accept your argument. That's in the nature of debate.

Not being to deal with what he says.
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I'm afraid that statement makes no sense.

Whether Singapore was a perfect democracy or a democracy at all is IRRELEVANT.
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I've just explained why it's relevant. It depends on what kind of society you wish to live in. I've no doubt Singapore is a very successful society in certain respects, much less so in others. I'd argue less so because of the repressive and anti-democratic activities of the same Mr Lee.


You are clearly a convert to Mr Lee's approach, perhaps because he has gone on record attacking Islam. Am I right?

I'm going to ask for baiting sanctions (or a mental competency exam), if you continue just repeating this preposterous line.
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Weren't you the person bemoaning another poster being "emptily combative"? I'd argue that this last comment of yours is exactly that. To quote you once again:
You don't like it... so you attack instead of logical/coherent counter argument.
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Andalublue said:
You've argued that it was fallacious. I don't accept your argument. That's in the nature of debate.
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No, it's the nature of your fallacious and now pure-bait/childish posting.
Again..
Whether or not Singapore was a Democracy wouldn't effect a leader with 30 years experience running a successfull/diverse country's competence to make an educated comment on the ability of Muslims to integrate.

It's not enough to say you disagree-- withOUT explaining WHY it would make him unqualified to comment.
Nor did you even refute the fact that Muslims have NOT integrated there as the other groups have.

This is not mere opinion, this is documented by a credible leader and the current state of the country.
Unless you'd care to contribute something beside goofy off topic ad hom to the string. LOL


I'm afraid that statement makes no sense.
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This is token nonsense... as if categorical reply. Intentionally and Dishonestly Multi-quoting into pieces that aren't full thoughts.
You cannot deal with what he said and ergo just fallaciously attacked his country as a non-democracy, as If that effects his ability or knowledge to comment.

Already explained and acknowledged by most of the planet; Lee ran a successful Multi-Racial/Multi-religous state.

You are clearly a convert to Mr Lee's approach, perhaps because he has gone on record attacking Islam. Am I right?
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No but you're perverting as usual.
I'm not converting to anything, just acknowledging his ability to make informed comment.

Weren't you the person bemoaning another being "emptily combative". I'd argue that this last comment of yours is exactly that. To quote you once again:
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Combative is often warranted when dealing with the DISHONEST.
As now AND.. ie, http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/67405-fallaci-write-europe-5.html#post1058604115
Perhaps in your next post you'll Lie about Lee too.. suggesting he's mentally ill, or making up fraudulent quotes allegedly said by him as well.

Your tactics are beneath contempt and your posts utterly empty .. at best.
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
Nice invocation of Godwin's Law there.

A monocultural society does not automatically mean monoracial or not having foreigners about, although you would expect it.
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Nice innovation of ad hominem. I pointed out that if England was only white and only Teutonic and Celtic, it still would not be a monoculture. Now you tell me if you have ever been asking for any one group other than Muslim people to be removed from the UK? Rather I have seen post after post after post from you posting every tiny bit of garbage you can find against anyone from Muslim heritage - a veritable hate campaign such as I have not observed in my life. If you had looked at the National Socialist thread, you would see that he quite correctly views the current situation of a small section of Europe as his only hope for his Teutonic dream. That would not happen of course, you yourself would be deported if that happened.

Yes, we in the UK have always had people of varying races and have always allowed them freedom to follow their own traditions. Multiculturalism has existed in the UK since they stopped banning the speaking of Gallic and re-introduced not quite authentic Scottish dress, songs and dance. It has been Britain's way. We are not now and have not been since the time individual differences were met by the sword a monoculture and the only way you would get such a thing in the UK would be to bring in some unnatural way of being such as National Socialism.


No it doesn't. You simply failed to read what I said because it does not fit into your brainwashed view which you adamantly will stand by regardless of any truth outside it. You cannot expect people to feel a culture of 'English' unless they are at a football match or thinking of going to war or some such thing, because England did not have just one culture. However people can feel they belong to London or Yorkshire or East Anglia and so on. With all the geographical mobility that people need these days, to some extent these cultures have been overlooked. I doubt if there would be too much problem managing to get someone to feel a Yorkshire identity. It seems to be quite strong and distinct.

You cannot complain about people not being part of a culture if you are not presenting them with the opportunities to be part of a culture.


well that is your problem not mine. Scotland was unfortunately well involved in that too. The problem I believe is that there never was a distinct 'English' culture.


Republic_Of_Public said:
It's not to hate your neighbour to prefer a monocultural society but to retain that connection with the country's heritage, culture and your own roots.
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and what are those roots? You have only mentioned 'empire'. Sorry RoP it has gone and you are not getting it back.



Well what she must be believing she is missing is almost everyone going to church on Sunday, people knowing their place and celebrating Empire Day, not to mention that she was a new immigrant and as such she would have experienced this country differently from the people who had been living here for generations and fought for the freedoms they managed to get.

England is full of lots of little cultures. When we start to understand that and respect these cultures she will become rich in culture again and new people will find there is a culture to be a part of as they currently do if they go to live in Scotland or Wales.
 
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Nice innovation of ad hominem.
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Not everything in life is a personal attack. Though such a 'liberal' standpoint fuels the mania to look for racism in even the shadows and coincidences.



You seem to confuse a monocultural society with some kind of Orwellian thing under which everyone thinks and does the same. Of course people are different anyway, as noticed more starkly when looking at how the counties were when they were more individualistic.

However, as a greater mass people would consider themselves nationals if they were allowed free vent to it. Indeed, it took long enough for St. George's Day to be again celebrated as overtly as St. Patrick's. And it is more than being about football and liberals whining about the British Empire (hence the itallic reference). Shared ideals at grassroots level, such as the original ideals of having a fair crack of the whip, a safe place to live, helping people in the street and a general sense of decency and will for freedom.


What's more, reverting to a monocultural society would not mean kicking anybody out. Back in the pre-MultiCulti days, Jews and Sikhs here still had their temples. But foreign cultures weren't state-sanctioned rivals to the indigenous one and newcomers had the firm idea that it was the new world they were entering.
 
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.....a veritable hate campaign such as I have not observed in my life.
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Not as bad as actual Islamist hate campaigns against Jews, resulting in much violence? As we've seen, they've even picked on their own Labour people and the be-pedestalled gay community!

Knocks my whistleblowing into a cocked hat anyday! And no wonder I see an ever decreasing value in a broader mass of Muslims who either commit atrocities, make demands or refuse to tick off their bretheren when they misbehave.

(Besides, let's see the casebook items refuted then: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/91870-uk-pm-multiculturalism-has-failed-8.html#post1059271996 )





In Australia again we see the lie of the land: Australian PM Gillard Lays It On the Line to Muslim Immigrants - Journal - thermonuclearthought

You accuse me of singling out Muslims for special robust and no-nonsense scrutiny. But you show me where the likes of Jews, Sikhs or Afros constantly get up to even half the antics you find across the Muslim spectrum!
 
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Andalublue said:
Isn't that funny, you concede that British people are united in their support for the concept of multiculturalism, and somehow that tells you that we're all brainwashed... apart from your mate and the only sane and rational British poster on DP, RoP.
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The incredible hypocrisy the vast majority of brits show when it comes to their ridiculous double standards is certainly not the product of rational thought, and especially inasmuch as the opinions stated on the subject are based upon nothing but a mindless conformity based upon fear that objectivity and rationality would be considered racist, OF COURSE it is the product of brain washing.

The Emperor being naked is not preventing you folks from continuing with your babble about the resplendance of his clothes. From the large majority of Muslims in your country who want anybody jailed if they criticize islam to the signifigant percentage who want Britain to be ruled by Sharia to the troubling percentage who support honor killing or female genital mutilation or the death of apostates or homosexuals, you folks are simply unwilling to acknowledge the extent of the exytreme beliefs held by these Muslims. Even though these extreme beliefs represent a knuckle-dragging regressive conservatism, you have been hoodwinkinked into thinking it is the duty of a liberal to lie about the true nature or extent of such beliefs.

You folks have bought the dogma of multiculturalism so thoroughly, and you treat the Muslims in your country as such a sacred cow, that the mere act of a person telling the truth now elicits nothing but abuse. A person pointing out what Muslims in your country actually believe might as well be trying to explain evolution to religious fundamentalists - -all you folks do is respond with your usual conformist dogma based upon denial, and you denial is based upon your fear that you will be considered a racist if you acknowledge the truth..
 

Gardener you need pinning on some important points. Can you please point out one post, in any thread, where their has been a single British poster agreeing with

A - honour killings

B - female genital mutilation

C - death of apostates

D - death of homosexuals

Not some misinterpretation on your part actual posts that state the above.

As an example from a so called 'left wing' news source you deplore

British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws | Society | The Observer

So other than those who carry out this barbaric act, who are its supporters?

Paul
 
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That's quite the dishonest sleight of hand to claim another person said support when they quite clearly indicated it was the failure to acknowledge the extent of the beliefs in question that was at he heart of the problem.


In a previous discussion, you went so far as to mention the distinction between Muslims and Islamists, but when I pointed you to polls indicating the extent of Islamist beliefs, you tried with all your might to move the bar by establishing it at a place where only those actively engaging in murder could possibly qualify. Such dishonesty is indicative of the mindset I am addressing here.
 

You have a very weak argument if you believe that that Sweden or Denmark is a "terrorist hub" because of another attack on a cartoonist. When Islamists have decided to export their terrorism from Europe, that source has tended to be the UK.

How has "Germany not allowed its muslim immigrant workers to assimilate or become German citizens"? Is it illegal for them to speak German? Are they restricted to certain areas? It seems that no matter what the Muslims do any problems will always be the fault of their host countries. That is becoming a rather tedious argument, unless you feel Muslims have no intelligence whatsoever and are unable to distinguish the difference between right and wrong or do what is best in their own interests. But, once again, Europeans are turning on each other in this blame game.

And the "neo-cons" are still behind it all, huh?
 

Whenever Muslims create problems in the US or Canada we certainly don't blame ourselves for it, nor the "Neo-Cons", but that seems to be the trend in Europe. It's everyone's fault but the perpetrators.
 
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