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UK and Sweden block EU investigations into US spy program

Rainman05

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Britain and Sweden block critical talks on espionage and intelligence between EU and US | End the Lie – Independent News

Britain and Sweden block critical talks on espionage and intelligence between EU and US
Britain and Sweden vetoed plans to launch two working groups to deal with issues of espionage and intelligence with the United States, thus restricting upcoming talks in Washington to issues of data privacy and the National Security Agency’s PRISM program.
Thanks to Britain, national governments will have to attempt to pursue the issues with Washington on their own, something which will likely be more difficult without the collective bargaining power.
Read the rest at the link. This is the most interesting part.
Interestingly, there is apparently no mention of the UK’s massive data mining operation run through GCHQ which hands data over to the NSA.

However, it’s worth noting that France has a program much like PRISM that they are running as well.
/QUOTE]

It's been legal for some time now in France to follow email contents. I read the news years ago... 2009 maybe? 2008? It was passed silently into law. No big fuss. Just when the country had huge riots and financial issues which occupied the main spotlight.
 

PeteEU

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Quite misleading article. The EU Parliament will continue their investigation into both and the UK and Sweden can do jack**** to stop that investigation.
 

Sanddune

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Quite misleading article. The EU Parliament will continue their investigation into both and the UK and Sweden can do jack**** to stop that investigation.
HOPEFULLY!!!
If the Brits and Swedes join the Americans in pissing on civil rights, they will hopefully not stop the other European countries from acting together.
Though I think the EU should first deal with the GCHQ allegations, after all with the UK we have a state WITHIN the EU which spies on its allies.
 

alexa

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HOPEFULLY!!!
If the Brits and Swedes join the Americans in pissing on civil rights, they will hopefully not stop the other European countries from acting together.
Though I think the EU should first deal with the GCHQ allegations, after all with the UK we have a state WITHIN the EU which spies on its allies.
I think it will need to be a lot broader than that. We have already heard of France's involvement and now Germany

Edward Snowden tells Der Spiegel NSA is 'in bed with the Germans'

Interview carried out before NSA whistleblower fled to Hong Kong appears to contradict Merkel's public surprise at snooping
Edward Snowden tells Der Spiegel NSA is 'in bed with the Germans' | World news | guardian.co.uk

I doubt it anything serious will be done if it does not come from outside those currently in power.
 

PeteEU

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HOPEFULLY!!!
If the Brits and Swedes join the Americans in pissing on civil rights, they will hopefully not stop the other European countries from acting together.
Though I think the EU should first deal with the GCHQ allegations, after all with the UK we have a state WITHIN the EU which spies on its allies.
Problem is that all governments do it. The French, Germans, Spanish, Danes.. they all spy like mad on their own citizens and on each other. It is nothing new. Anyone claiming that they are shocked that they are being spied on are either stupid or highly gullible.

Countries have spied on their citizens and on each other since the late 19th century. I remember a good story about my home country. When the Germans took over Denmark in WW2, the started spying on all citizens... standard practice for an occupation force (yes the Allies did the same). But the kicker here was that they did not have to establish any system, since it was already in place and had been used for years by different Danish governments. Both phones and mail were regularly intercepted by the government before the Germans. To this day, the Danish government denies it, and all material from before, during and after WW2 are stamped secret for another 50+ years.

The only real new thing is, that they have now been "caught" and it is out in the open even though it was never really a secret.

Over the last 20 years we have had cases in most European countries, where intelligence in terror and criminal cases has been questioned on how the heck they got it. We have had intelligence gotten from torture victims in the middle east and US, we have had intelligence gotten through illegal wiretaps and so on and so on. Now we know, that much of the amazing detective work is actually a grand canvas.. or massive fishnet that captures everyone. And yet they have missed some whoppers...

To be honest I dont care if they spy on people.. if they have not done anything wrong then there is nothing to worry about. But saying that, I do want basic legal protections for all, which means I want a judge to be involved before any spying is done. Blanket surveillance of people is a big no no.

As for countries spying on each other.. **** happens, just dont get caught I say.. which they have now.
 

AliHajiSheik

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Problem is that all governments do it. The French, Germans, Spanish, Danes.. they all spy like mad on their own citizens and on each other. It is nothing new. Anyone claiming that they are shocked that they are being spied on are either stupid or highly gullible.

Countries have spied on their citizens and on each other since the late 19th century. I remember a good story about my home country. When the Germans took over Denmark in WW2, the started spying on all citizens... standard practice for an occupation force (yes the Allies did the same). But the kicker here was that they did not have to establish any system, since it was already in place and had been used for years by different Danish governments. Both phones and mail were regularly intercepted by the government before the Germans. To this day, the Danish government denies it, and all material from before, during and after WW2 are stamped secret for another 50+ years.

The only real new thing is, that they have now been "caught" and it is out in the open even though it was never really a secret.

Over the last 20 years we have had cases in most European countries, where intelligence in terror and criminal cases has been questioned on how the heck they got it. We have had intelligence gotten from torture victims in the middle east and US, we have had intelligence gotten through illegal wiretaps and so on and so on. Now we know, that much of the amazing detective work is actually a grand canvas.. or massive fishnet that captures everyone. And yet they have missed some whoppers...

To be honest I dont care if they spy on people.. if they have not done anything wrong then there is nothing to worry about. But saying that, I do want basic legal protections for all, which means I want a judge to be involved before any spying is done. Blanket surveillance of people is a big no no.

As for countries spying on each other.. **** happens, just dont get caught I say.. which they have now.
I think many would agree with the "don't get caught' line, the issue is what can be done if you do get caught?
 

PeteEU

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I think many would agree with the "don't get caught' line, the issue is what can be done if you do get caught?
Well they would have to face the consequences no? What they have done is technically illegal in most countries (not the UK it seems).
 

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I think it will need to be a lot broader than that. We have already heard of France's involvement and now Germany
Edward Snowden tells Der Spiegel NSA is 'in bed with the Germans' | World news | guardian.co.uk
I doubt it anything serious will be done if it does not come from outside those currently in power.
Unfortunately you're right. Merkel dutifully expressed her "outrage" and now she wants to continue business as usual. She is treating data privacy as one issue among many, and of course it shouldn't get into the way of any other negotiations, especially those about the EU-US free trade zone.

Now she is getting a lot of pressure from the opposition in Germany which is a good thing, even though there might be more than a little bit of hypocrisy on the social democrat side as well. My only hope is:

1) A social democrat - green coalition resulting from the next elections in Germany in autumn

2) That government joining with the rest of continental Europe to
a) enforce existing EU privacy standards for their own secret services
b) putting pressure on the UK to do the same

3) Insisting on an end to all US intelligence activities on European soil which violate EU laws and those of the member states. If the US fail to sign an agreement to that effect, all EU states should insist on a closure of all US bases on the European continent, expell all representatives of US intelligence services and all US diplomats except a minimum number which is necessary to run the embassies. The next project would then be to enhance the security of the fibre wire networks against hostile US spying and develop a free encrypted European email and telephone service.

I do recognize that the continental Europeans first have to take care of their own practices before they can demand something from the US or UK. And they should get going.
 

Sanddune

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Problem is that all governments do it. The French, Germans, Spanish, Danes.. they all spy like mad on their own citizens and on each other. It is nothing new. Anyone claiming that they are shocked that they are being spied on are either stupid or highly gullible.

Countries have spied on their citizens and on each other since the late 19th century. I remember a good story about my home country. When the Germans took over Denmark in WW2, the started spying on all citizens... standard practice for an occupation force (yes the Allies did the same). But the kicker here was that they did not have to establish any system, since it was already in place and had been used for years by different Danish governments. Both phones and mail were regularly intercepted by the government before the Germans. To this day, the Danish government denies it, and all material from before, during and after WW2 are stamped secret for another 50+ years.

The only real new thing is, that they have now been "caught" and it is out in the open even though it was never really a secret.

Over the last 20 years we have had cases in most European countries, where intelligence in terror and criminal cases has been questioned on how the heck they got it. We have had intelligence gotten from torture victims in the middle east and US, we have had intelligence gotten through illegal wiretaps and so on and so on. Now we know, that much of the amazing detective work is actually a grand canvas.. or massive fishnet that captures everyone. And yet they have missed some whoppers...

To be honest I dont care if they spy on people.. if they have not done anything wrong then there is nothing to worry about. But saying that, I do want basic legal protections for all, which means I want a judge to be involved before any spying is done. Blanket surveillance of people is a big no no.

As for countries spying on each other.. **** happens, just dont get caught I say.. which they have now.
Blanket surveillance is exactly what is happening. Okay, if someone is suspected by the police and a judge authorizes spying on that person for a limited time to confirm or falsify the suspicion, and then delete the data once the case is closed, that is within the rule of law. But what is happening is that the NSA is storing our phone calls, email, everything including this post, for years. That gives them the ability to put pressure on anyone. Also, this practice is against German, Danish, French and other laws and in violation of the human rights of the citizens of these countries. Now the fact that our secret services are complicit in this makes it worse, but it really shouldn't be a reason to accept the current practice. Our secret services have developed a habit of spying on each others' citizens to get around legal protections of civil rights. This is something we have to end.
 

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I think many would agree with the "don't get caught' line, the issue is what can be done if you do get caught?
Hopefully more than what is done now, provided Merkel gets voted out in autumn.
 

AliHajiSheik

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Well they would have to face the consequences no? What they have done is technically illegal in most countries (not the UK it seems).
Ok, consequences: war, trade embargo, closing of embassies, nasty letters, chest beating, etc. Come on, come up with some consequences you can see happening.
 

Spriggs05

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Britain and Sweden block critical talks on espionage and intelligence between EU and US | End the Lie – Independent News



Read the rest at the link. This is the most interesting part.

Interestingly, there is apparently no mention of the UK’s massive data mining operation run through GCHQ which hands data over to the NSA.

However, it’s worth noting that France has a program much like PRISM that they are running as well.
/QUOTE]

It's been legal for some time now in France to follow email contents. I read the news years ago... 2009 maybe? 2008? It was passed silently into law. No big fuss. Just when the country had huge riots and financial issues which occupied the main spotlight.

This has the hallmarks of the UK and Sweden being Guilty of using Prism information. I am ashamed of my country.
 

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Ok, consequences: war, trade embargo, closing of embassies, nasty letters, chest beating, etc. Come on, come up with some consequences you can see happening.
Did I say consequences for spying on other countries? No.. But consequences for blanket spying on its own citizens... and that includes prison and impeachment.
 

AliHajiSheik

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Did I say consequences for spying on other countries? No.. But consequences for blanket spying on its own citizens... and that includes prison and impeachment.
Yes, you did. I referred to your line:

"As for countries spying on each other.. **** happens, just dont get caught I say.. which they have now."

Maybe you changed the reference, but that is to what I was referring.
 

PeteEU

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Yes, you did. I referred to your line:

"As for countries spying on each other.. **** happens, just dont get caught I say.. which they have now."

Maybe you changed the reference, but that is to what I was referring.
Oh that, my bad. Well the usual when such stuff happens. Depends on the country. Kick out a diplomat/spy or two. Or bury it for the good of the relationship. But war.. that would be counter productive.

Lets give some example.

Israel spies on the US. For the good of the relationship, the spy gets a harsh prison sentence, there is a bit of bitching behind the doors, but else there is no real consequences at least outward. This actually happened.

US catches Russian spies. A lot of media bitching, and the spies are either put in prison or traded for some of your own. A diplomat or two might loose their accreditation, but in a few weeks it is all forgotten. This also happened.

And then there are the cases we never hear about..on both sides.

Rarely do such cases (if at all) result in any hostilities.
 

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I think many would agree with the "don't get caught' line, the issue is what can be done if you do get caught?



People can talk about you and call you nasty names.

And, if that doesn't stop you, they can do it again next time.
 

Sanddune

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People can talk about you and call you nasty names.

And, if that doesn't stop you, they can do it again next time.
Seems true...

But how about kicking the US military out of Europe, especially Germany? That would be a loss for them.
 

shrubnose

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Seems true...

But how about kicking the US military out of Europe, especially Germany? That would be a loss for them.



Some US Military units may relocate from Europe.

But I don't believe that being 'kicked out' will be the reason.
 

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Quite misleading article. The EU Parliament will continue their investigation into both and the UK and Sweden can do jack**** to stop that investigation.
Does this one get you particularly excited, Pete? An opportunity for the EuroLeft to rise up in righteous indignation! Doesn't get much better than this for you, does it?
 

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Seems true...

But how about kicking the US military out of Europe, especially Germany? That would be a loss for them.
Please, please, please EuroLefties! Kick us out of Europe. Especially Germany. I'm tired of defending them while they make money selling us expensive cars.
 

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Please, please, please EuroLefties! Kick us out of Europe. Especially Germany. I'm tired of defending them while they make money selling us expensive cars.


True enough military bases in Germnay are mutually profitable for both the US and local Germany economies. However that being said I think all countries involved in this scandal have to take a long hard look at themselves and the way we are treating our allies.
 

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Please, please, please EuroLefties! Kick us out of Europe. Especially Germany. I'm tired of defending them while they make money selling us expensive cars.
If the US government fails to guarantee European data privacy standards for their surveillance activities in Europe, I think we should, with all the costs it implies. It's about defending civil liberties, and I am willing to pay a price for it.

However, it's not going to happen with the current German government because we have politicians and secret services who "use" the NSA to spy on our people and then get the results without asking if any laws were broken.
 
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True enough military bases in Germnay are mutually profitable for both the US and local Germany economies. However that being said I think all countries involved in this scandal have to take a long hard look at themselves and the way we are treating our allies.
Yes, actually up to the spying scandal I was quite happy with US troops being here. They generally get along very well with the locals. And yes, the only thing people would talk about when US bases close is a few local shops and bars in the area going bankrupt. The only thing the Americans are known for in my home town is being good at Karaoke.

This friendly atmosphere is about to change unless the US makes clear commitments to respect civil liberties of the citizens of allied countries.
 

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If the US government fails to guarantee European data privacy standards for their surveillance activities in Europe, I think we should, with all the costs it implies. It's about defending civil liberties, and I am willing to pay a price for it.

However, it's not going to happen with the current German government because we have politicians and secret services who "use" the NSA to spy on our people and then get the results without asking if any laws were broken.
I guess from your perspective the wrong side won the cold war, eh? Those damned Americans!
 

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Yes, actually up to the spying scandal I was quite happy with US troops being here. They generally get along very well with the locals. And yes, the only thing people would talk about when US bases close is a few local shops and bars in the area going bankrupt. The only thing the Americans are known for in my home town is being good at Karaoke.

This friendly atmosphere is about to change unless the US makes clear commitments to respect civil liberties of the citizens of allied countries.
This whine-fest from you European lefties is now reaching the critical stage. I'd recommend holding your breath until you turn blue. That'll teach those dastardly Yanks!
 
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