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U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

j-mac

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I have presented info from the most authoritative source on Iraqi deaths.


:rofl That is a hoot! "the most authoritative source"? Says who? Commomdreams.org? Give me a break. I presented no less than three articles showing why IBC is nothing more than a radical liberal lie. But as most far left arguers go you will continue to ignore that, and present the lies as fact.


j-mac
 

kansaswhig

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I knew that they weren't linked to al Qaeda. Sorry if I made it sound that way. I was just pointing out they were an organization supported by Saddam.

According to this site: Saddam Hussein's Philanthropy of Terror - by Deroy Murdock Saddam helped with cash, diplomatic aid, safe haven, training, and even medical attention. Here is a list of some of the organizations he helped:

- Abu Nidal Organization
- Ansar al-Islam
- Arab Liberation Front
- Hamas
- Kurdistan Workers Party
- Mujahedin-e-Khalq
- Palestine Liberation Front

As you can imagine, there is only so much I can say on an open source forum. I'm not trying to sound elitist, but I'm privy to information you don't have. And I don't know everything, obviously. But what I can assure you of is that there is NO LOVE LOST between AAI and the Ba'athists.

Let me put it this way: in the ME, particularly in Iraq, the alliances and monetary links are very shady. You would be surprised by who crawls into bed with each other and for what reason. IF AAI or KWP recieved funding or any other support from the Ba'athists, it was because they were doing something in return; not because Saddam supported their cause. Saddam was an "anything-supporter" as long as it benefitted him and didn't subvert his authority and command.

Though none of those groups, despite the alleged links had anything to do with 9/11.

Hey, BTW, my gmail isn't functioning at work, so I'll email you back when I get home. I did read it last night, though. I'm glad you enjoyed the letters.
 
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kansaswhig

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:rofl That is a hoot! "the most authoritative source"? Says who? Commomdreams.org? Give me a break. I presented no less than three articles showing why IBC is nothing more than a radical liberal lie. But as most far left arguers go you will continue to ignore that, and present the lies as fact.

Actually, we referenced it a lot in Iraq. Generally when attacks happened and we didn't get the right numbers, we would routinely check IBC to see what they were putting. Just a method. Doesn't mean we were right, but they are more accurate then you would think.
 

j-mac

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Actually, we referenced it a lot in Iraq. Generally when attacks happened and we didn't get the right numbers, we would routinely check IBC to see what they were putting. Just a method. Doesn't mean we were right, but they are more accurate then you would think.


I think that the numbers that Catawba is relying on are the ones that IBC extrapolated from the Lancet study, and therefore are severely flawed and over exaggerated. Now if one wants to argue that by definition that war brings with it causalities, and that is regrettable. But if liberals continue to use this tact of by the mere presence of American forces than every death occurring in country is the fault of US forces regardless of who killed whom, then I would say that is disingenuous at best. It has been shown that this is what IBC did.


j-mac
 

kansaswhig

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I think that the numbers that Catawba is relying on are the ones that IBC extrapolated from the Lancet study, and therefore are severely flawed and over exaggerated. Now if one wants to argue that by definition that war brings with it causalities, and that is regrettable. But if liberals continue to use this tact of by the mere presence of American forces than every death occurring in country is the fault of US forces regardless of who killed whom, then I would say that is disingenuous at best. It has been shown that this is what IBC did.

WAIT! My mistake! I meant icasualties.org

Wow, sorry for the mix up! This website is very reliable and accurate.

It shows like every SIGACT broke down by American/Iraqi/Contractor. They do a great job.
 
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j-mac

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WAIT! My mistake! I meant icasualties.org

Wow, sorry for the mix up! This website is very reliable and accurate.

It shows like every SIGACT broke down by American/Iraqi/Contractor. They do a great job.


No problem, That site is very good. Thanks for sharing it.



j-mac
 

mikeey

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America was attacked from the Taliban,this is war,so i say to the American
people,crush them once and for all,the same as you did to Germany.Take there
land and keep it.United States i will back them to the hilt,finest
army in the world,so go and do the job and clean that rubbish out.As for Pakistan
they will just have to do what they are told from America,as it should
be.I can say more,but let me say one more thing,


America is the greatest no dout about that on this

PLANET.

God bless United States of America.

mikeey
 

reefedjib

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You mean excepting when we strike water treatment plants and electricity plants that result in the deaths of a hundred thousand innocent civilians?

We did not do this in Operation Iraqi Freedom. When did we do this?

reefedjib said:
Catawba said:
So you do not believe the civil war will resume, when we are not there to prevent it?
It is definitely one possible outcome. We must do what we can to avoid this, especially since "we broke it, we fix it". This means pulling out some of the troops, to allow them to establish their own security, but not all of our troops. I will now invoke Germany and Japan and Korea as cases where we helped establish democracies and we still have significant troops there today. We need to do the same with Iraq.
Apples and oranges. The difference being that Germany and Japan were attacking other countries. Iraq was not, in fact did not the capacity to be a threat after Gulf War 1 and 10 years of sanctions. Iraq was already defeated.

Ok, now you are doing a devious thing. In this conversation we are having, we have been talking about two different things. First there is the reasons for going to war. Second there is how we are doing now and what should we do.

This particular item was about whether civil war would resume if we pulled entirely out, in the present tense. I referenced those countries we helped establish democracies in, in that light. A good comparison. We are not inexperienced at this as a country.

INSTEAD, you are switching the argument you are making to one of the reasons we went to war. It doesn't matter. Stop doing that! ;)

reefedjib said:
I told you it is about spreading democracy, not getting oil. Now that we are there, we need to be successful.
Than you have changed your opinion, because earlier you were indicating that it was partly about the oil.

I did not. Earlier I said that the country was geopolitically important because of oil, not that we were there to get it. We'll buy it on the open market.

We need to be successful in what? It is up to the Iraqis to determine their fate and how they handle their own oil resources

It is but it is up to us to help them however we can.

You are representing what the pro-west government we helped helped set up is saying.

I am speaking of the Iraqi people that will topple the pro-west government when we remove our heavily armed occupation forces.

Yes, the people are pessimistic about us. Can't blame them really. We will see what happens.
 
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reefedjib

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As you can imagine, there is only so much I can say on an open source forum. I'm not trying to sound elitist, but I'm privy to information you don't have. And I don't know everything, obviously. But what I can assure you of is that there is NO LOVE LOST between AAI and the Ba'athists.

Let me put it this way: in the ME, particularly in Iraq, the alliances and monetary links are very shady. You would be surprised by who crawls into bed with each other and for what reason. IF AAI or KWP recieved funding or any other support from the Ba'athists, it was because they were doing something in return; not because Saddam supported their cause. Saddam was an "anything-supporter" as long as it benefitted him and didn't subvert his authority and command.

Though none of those groups, despite the alleged links had anything to do with 9/11.

Hey, BTW, my gmail isn't functioning at work, so I'll email you back when I get home. I did read it last night, though. I'm glad you enjoyed the letters.

I can totally see that Saddam wouldn't have supported the cause of the Kurdish terrorist groups.

Thanks!
 

tjinta ibis

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Not true. There was collaboration and meetings. One held in Hungary I think. Nothing to do with 9-11, though.
As I said, Hussein had nothing to do with ALQ in any significance at all.

Saddam had relationships with several terrorist groups. Remember Ansar al-Islam?

Old Bush bs, trotted out by Powell who got suckered to beleive it and who has since disavowed it.
[quote\The general consensus of experts, as well as the conclusion of the intelligence community and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, is that Saddam was infiltrating the group but that the two parties remained hostile to each other and did not establish a collaborative relationship.Wikepedia[/quote]
 

reefedjib

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As I said, Hussein had nothing to do with ALQ in any significance at all.



Old Bush bs, trotted out by Powell who got suckered to beleive it and who has since disavowed it.
[quote\The general consensus of experts, as well as the conclusion of the intelligence community and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, is that Saddam was infiltrating the group but that the two parties remained hostile to each other and did not establish a collaborative relationship.Wikepedia
[/QUOTE]


Yep, I already conceded both claims I made.
 

Aunt Spiker

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This is not ringing a bell. What happened?

Ok - good question.

I must admit I'm confused. The other week I could have SWORN I read and debated in a thread pertaining to Obama ending funding for Iraq-democrat groups . . . I must be getting my facts confused and I appologize.
I tried to find the thread but can't land my hands on it - I'm not sure if it's here or elsewhere.

When I find it I'll be certain to re-read it and understand it fully and get back twoya.

In the meantime - it's like Shrodinger's Cat.
 

reefedjib

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Ok - good question.

I must admit I'm confused. The other week I could have SWORN I read and debated in a thread pertaining to Obama ending funding for Iraq-democrat groups . . . I must be getting my facts confused and I appologize.
I tried to find the thread but can't land my hands on it - I'm not sure if it's here or elsewhere.

When I find it I'll be certain to re-read it and understand it fully and get back twoya.

In the meantime - it's like Shrodinger's Cat.

There was an Iran Democracy group that he dropped funding for. Could that be what you are thinking of?

Obama Cuts Pro-Democracy Funds for Iran

I do not support this.

It is like Schroedinger's Cat: A wave function representing Iraqs government stability. Will the wave function collapse and result in democracy or dictatorship or something else?
 
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Aunt Spiker

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There was an Iran Democracy group that he dropped funding for. Could that be what you are thinking of?

Obama Cuts Pro-Democracy Funds for Iran

I do not support this.

It is like Schroedinger's Cat: A wave function representing Iraqs government stability. Will the wave function collapse and result in democracy or dictatorship or something else?


Yes! Thank you so much.

See - obviously I was sorely mistaken, fortunately I didn't make a complete ass out of myself by repeating misinformation. :shock:
 

Catawba

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:rofl That is a hoot! "the most authoritative source"? Says who? Commomdreams.org? Give me a break. I presented no less than three articles showing why IBC is nothing more than a radical liberal lie. But as most far left arguers go you will continue to ignore that, and present the lies as fact.


j-mac

They are not associated with Commondreams.org. They are a British research group and are widely considered by both the right and left to be the most authoritative source on Iraqi deaths. Let's see your source that is more authoritative than Iraq Body Count? I have asked you before and you have provided nothing.

Do you have anything to add to this discussion?
 

Catawba

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We did not do this in Operation Iraqi Freedom. When did we do this?

In Gulf War 1. Is this the first you've heard of it?

Ok, now you are doing a devious thing. In this conversation we are having, we have been talking about two different things. First there is the reasons for going to war. Second there is how we are doing now and what should we do.

This particular item was about whether civil war would resume if we pulled entirely out, in the present tense. I referenced those countries we helped establish democracies in, in that light. A good comparison. We are not inexperienced at this as a country.

INSTEAD, you are switching the argument you are making to one of the reasons we went to war. It doesn't matter. Stop doing that! ;)

You are the one that brought up Germany and Japan. We did not go to war with either to bring Democracy to them. They were threats, Iraq was not.
That is why your analogy does not apply.


I did not. Earlier I said that the country was geopolitically important because of oil, not that we were there to get it. We'll buy it on the open market.

Exactly, that's the same thing I am saying. It was about controlling the region militarily so no one can mess with our oil interests. After we invaded and occupied Iraq, US oil was able to return to the US for the first time since Saddam had kicked them out years ago, and now there is no worry about the pro-west government we installed switching to the Euro as Saddam had threatened to do. And we have bases and troops readily available to prevent any attacks on our government there or sabotage of the oil infrastructure.

It is but it is up to us to help them however we can.

Not if they do not want us there.

Yes, the people are pessimistic about us. Can't blame them really. We will see what happens.

Its not a mystery. We have an agreement to have all our combat troops out in 2011. After that we will watch as the Iraqis install their own government. Most likely strongly influenced by Iran.
 

Catawba

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The interim government yes, but the current government no.

He could not even have entered the country without us. We then appoint him to the Interim government and recommend him to run as Prime Minister.

We could hardly have done more to help install a Pro-western leader.

He would not be where he is with out us.
 

Catawba

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Not happening. Mark my words. I know it for a fact. Not happening.

It will happen before election time in 2012 if Obama wants to be reelected.

Yikes.


Yep.

Yep............
 
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B L Zeebub

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I was very proud of my friend Dr B Iddon MP and the other 148 cross party MP's who voted with the rebel amendment that there was no moral case for this war.

Blair was as responsible as Bush for this disgrace.

I had to interview a Blair speech writer who had been parachuted into a constituency as a prospective MP.

I cannot go into details of that interview, save to say, he confirmed what the 149 MP's stated.

You were duped America, just like the UK was.

I do not hate America or its people, but the 8yrs of Dubya are a stain on the civilized world.
 

kansaswhig

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It will happen before election time in 2012 if Obama wants to be reelected.

It's not going to. The military is to big and slow to do a withdrawl that quickly. 2013, maybe. Probably 2015.

It doesn't matter. No one cares about Iraq anymore. It will be another promise Obama made to the left that he will break.
 

Catawba

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I was very proud of my friend Dr B Iddon MP and the other 148 cross party MP's who voted with the rebel amendment that there was no moral case for this war.

Blair was as responsible as Bush for this disgrace.

I had to interview a Blair speech writer who had been parachuted into a constituency as a prospective MP.

I cannot go into details of that interview, save to say, he confirmed what the 149 MP's stated.

You were duped America, just like the UK was.

I do not hate America or its people, but the 8yrs of Dubya are a stain on the civilized world.


Well said. I could not agree more!
 
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