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U.S. Justice Dept., Trump at odds over mandate of special master

LMAO... Can you cite some "cases" where the judicial branch has overruled the security classification determined by the executive branch? I mean, based on your extensive "field experience" this should be a very easy task...

While we are on the subject, what harm is Trump claiming by these documents being classified? If he declassified the documents himself, why is he not making that claim in his filings?

Is a former president authorized to store classified information WITHOUT express authorization from the PRESIDENT?

By statute, where are PRA claims by former presidents heard? What venue?

Who says the special master would overrule security classifications? The determination of the security classifications at the time they were boxed and sent to Mar-a-Lago would be Trump, determining classification status wouldn't be the job of the Special Master.
 
Ah, depends on the document, and it's prior classification. If they seized a box full of top secret folders that all held copies of Lady's Home Journal, who would have authority to determine classification?

Are you suggesting a federal judge can overrule the determination of the executive branch that those Lady's Home Journal copies are NOT classified? Is the president the ultimate classification authority or are they not? Is the classification reviewable by the judiciary? Please cite cases where this has been established.


If they contain documents that were at one time classified, then the determination for classified status would be entirely up the the POTUS. Once declassified, by action or declaration, they generally can't be reclassified. However a document gets into the wild, it's considered in the wild from that point forward. That is why, for instance, you and I could openly discuss the documents released by Edward Snowden without fear of being jailed. It's no longer classified, and can't be reclassified.

Glad you brought up wikieaks... I recall when wikileaks released a bunch of classified information that those with clearance were warned that STILL could not discuss the information as it remained classified. Did you not know about that warning? Was this prior or after your "field experience"? Why do you suppose that memo was sent?

Screen Shot 2022-09-13 at 7.47.01 AM.png



Now, since Snowden operated on a delegated classification authority, and the POTUS didn't authorize the release of those documents, Snowden committed a crime. The POTUS, on the other hand, has absolute authority to declassify, so wouldn't be guilty of a crime.

So WHY is he not making the argument that he declassified the documents?
 
Who says the special master would overrule security classifications? The determination of the security classifications at the time they were boxed and sent to Mar-a-Lago would be Trump, determining classification status wouldn't be the job of the Special Master.

So all the information on those documents is now public information?
 
Are you suggesting a federal judge can overrule the determination of the executive branch that those Lady's Home Journal copies are NOT classified? Is the president the ultimate classification authority or are they not? Is the classification reviewable by the judiciary? Please cite cases where this has been established.

LOL!! You can't classify documents that are in public distribution. As I have said numerous times already, there are far more regulations on what CAN be classified than on what the POTUS can declassify. In the case of the latter, there are no limitations. Declassification is at the will of the POTUS.

Glad you brought up wikieaks... I recall when wikileaks released a bunch of classified information that those with clearance were warned that STILL could not discuss the information as it remained classified. Did you not know about that warning? Was this prior or after your "field experience"? Why do you suppose that memo was sent?

View attachment 67412475


Hahahaha!! That was the Bush administration trying to control morale and stifle discussion in public.

Those documents were declassified once they hit the wild. The fact that they were declassified upon release is why we could all talk about the contents of the Wikileaks without being arrested.

Classification of a document requires a compelling Government interest to keep the information out of the hands of foreign nationals and the public (arguably the same reason), but once those documents hit Wikileaks there was no longer any confidence that those documents were in the custody of foreign nationals, so there was no longer a compelling government interest.

It's just the facts. I mean, consider what the Bush administration is claiming there... that Americans, even cleared Americans, couldn't view documents that were readily available to the world? No, it's a laughable claim.

So WHY is he not making the argument that he declassified the documents?

Because when he chose to takes the documents to Mar-a-Lago he declassified the documents in the determination. I mean, if the FBI argument is that he was distributing these documents to foreign nationals then they are declassified anyway, the only question is did he have the authority, and the answer would be yes.
 
So all the information on those documents is now public information?

Once the documents are in the wild you have to assume that they are... in the wild, regardless of how they got there. There is no way for the FBI to confirm or deny that copies of those documents were made, so seizing the originals would do nothing to stop proliferation of those documents. Such documents, while classified, only reside in a controlled SCIF, from birth until declassification that is where they reside.

The only question would be whether the POTUS can be criminally liable of releasing classified documents, which the POTUS can not...

Also, fair warning, this line of argument you are heading down is fraught with perils for your own argument so tread carefully. 😄
 
LOL!! You can't classify documents that are in public distribution. As I have said numerous times already, there are far more regulations on what CAN be classified than on what the POTUS can declassify. In the case of the latter, there are no limitations. Declassification is at the will of the POTUS.



Hahahaha!! That was the Bush administration trying to control morale and stifle discussion in public.


LMAO... Obama was president in 2010, not Bush... good lord

Those documents were declassified once they hit the wild. The fact that they were declassified upon release is why we could all talk about the contents of the Wikileaks without being arrested.

Classification of a document requires a compelling Government interest to keep the information out of the hands of foreign nationals and the public (arguably the same reason), but once those documents hit Wikileaks there was no longer any confidence that those documents were in the custody of foreign nationals, so there was no longer a compelling government interest.

It's just the facts. I mean, consider what the Bush administration is claiming there... that Americans, even cleared Americans, couldn't view documents that were readily available to the world? No, it's a laughable claim.



Because when he chose to takes the documents to Mar-a-Lago he declassified the documents in the determination. I mean, if the FBI argument is that he was distributing these documents to foreign nationals then they are declassified anyway, the only question is did he have the authority, and the answer would be yes.

You keep talking around the question: Can you cite some cases where the judicial branch has overruled the classification determination of the executive branch.


Is all the information on those documents at Mar-A-Lago now public information?
 
Once the documents are in the wild you have to assume that they are... in the wild, regardless of how they got there. There is no way for the FBI to confirm or deny that copies of those documents were made, so seizing the originals would do nothing to stop proliferation of those documents. Such documents, while classified, only reside in a controlled SCIF, from birth until declassification that is where they reside.

The only question would be whether the POTUS can be criminally liable of releasing classified documents, which the POTUS can not...

Also, fair warning, this line of argument you are heading down is fraught with perils for your own argument so tread carefully. 😄

Can a FORMER president be criminally liable for willfully retaining national defense information and failing to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it?
 
I have read it, and it is 54 pages of "just trust us".
If you read it, you know that's false.
The ironic thing is that the DOJ is now behaving the way they describe Trump's behavior with regards to these documents.
No they are not. If you read the filings you know part of their proposed plan is to make copies of every page, except the classified documents, and provide those copies to Trump.
And in the end, their argument falls flat because regardless of the nature of the documents found, there is no urgent national security threat posed by a document review since there is exactly zero chance that there is only one copy of any of those documents. The National Archive is interested in preserving original documents in the interest of posterity, but it doesn't hold the only copy of any document.
This is an interesting and almost certainly made-up fact you've hand waved into the discussion. What do you know about the "nature" of each of the 11,000 documents? How do you know this? Are you referring only to the documents marked classified?
If the FBI has fully inventoried the documents then they can make a request to any originating agency for copies of the documents they pulled.
I'm not a lawyer, but if it was as easy to get around a judges prohibition against using documents as making or retrieving a copy, then the prohibition isn't worth the paper it's printed on. "You see, your honor, we didn't use THOSE documents, but copies we made of them, so it's fine!!"
 
LOL!! You can't classify documents that are in public distribution. As I have said numerous times already, there are far more regulations on what CAN be classified than on what the POTUS can declassify. In the case of the latter, there are no limitations. Declassification is at the will of the POTUS.

From the filing of Trump's lawyers


President Obama enacted the current Executive Order prescribing the parameters for controlling classified information in 2009. See Exec. Order 13526 (Dec. 29, 2009). That Executive Order, which controlled during President Trump’s term in office, designates the President as an original classification authority

Here is what else the Executive order says



From § 4.1(c)
c) An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control or direct that information be declassified in order to remove it from agency control.


Declassification power in the hands of POTUS has its limits too.
 
LMAO... Obama was president in 2010, not Bush... good lord

So Obama gaslighted federal employees in an effort to control the public message.... while I was wrong on which president, I'm not sure you won that exchange. 😆

You keep talking around the question: Can you cite some cases where the judicial branch has overruled the classification determination of the executive branch.

Why would I chase down your straw man?

Is all the information on those documents at Mar-A-Lago now public information?

It would have to be assumed so, yes. Operating as if those records aren't public information, when they were out of SCIF control, would be foolish since there is no way to confirm whether or not copies were made.

Again, NARA's primary interest is in collecting the original documents for posterity.

I guess we could assume that those documents were held under lock in Mar-a-Lago and never viewed by anyone other than Trump, but that kinda shoots the shit out of the rest of your side's argument. :unsure:
 
I guess we could assume that those documents were held under lock in Mar-a-Lago and never viewed by anyone other than Trump, but that kinda shoots the shit out of the rest of your side's argument. :unsure:

Is this the lock that the FBI told Trump to install years after the storage of these documents?
 
If you read it, you know that's false.

No, it isn't false. Their whole justification is based claims of "national security risk" and claims that all documents have been accounted for and so no need for a third party to confirm. 54 pages reduced to "just trust us".

No they are not. If you read the filings you know part of their proposed plan is to make copies of every page, except the classified documents, and provide those copies to Trump.

And who ensures that the DOJ actually does that without a third party audit? Oh right... "just trust us".

This is an interesting and almost certainly made-up fact you've hand waved into the discussion. What do you know about the "nature" of each of the 11,000 documents? How do you know this? Are you referring only to the documents marked classified?

It's not made up. It's policy. But you don't even need the profession experience I have to conclude that the point I made is logical.

An example to clarify the policy: The US military is carrying out a clandestine mission to capture or kill an enemy commander. Before the mission happens, a forward observation post is compromised by a an attack and it is over run by the enemy. In that forward base were numerous NTN documents on the upcoming operation that were needed by the observation post to conduct support of the action. Without knowing if that information was compromised, does the mission move forward? Answer: No. Without information security, the mission is scrubbed.

The same holds true for other classified documents. Once documents are in the wild, you can't proceed as if they aren't because if you do the only people you are keeping in the dark are your own people.

I'm not a lawyer, but if it was as easy to get around a judges prohibition against using documents as making or retrieving a copy, then the prohibition isn't worth the paper it's printed on. "You see, your honor, we didn't use THOSE documents, but copies we made of them, so it's fine!!"

Fair...ish point. But as per a previous argument, the DOJ is just behaving in the way they accused Trump of behaving. If they did their screening properly they have nothing to worry about in a third party audit. Their is no rush other than politically... which is to say there is no rush.
 
Is this the lock that the FBI told Trump to install years after the storage of these documents?

I don't know, is it? Does it make a difference? I'm arguing appropriately from the position of classification policy that any classified documents that have been removed from the a controlled classified environment must be considered in the wild.

If you argue that those documents have been under secure control since leaving the White House such that they retain their classification status then the underlying assumption is that Trump didn't do what you want to accuse him of doing.

(and, again, Trump can't be guilty of what he is being accused of anyway since it was entirely within his legal prerogative to remove those documents and declassify them)
 
lol

So dishonest, can't answer can you? It's expected. MAGA Commies are rarely honest in their arguments.
Yup. It's all about me.
 
So Obama gaslighted federal employees in an effort to control the public message.... while I was wrong on which president, I'm not sure you won that exchange. 😆



Why would I chase down your straw man?



It would have to be assumed so, yes. Operating as if those records aren't public information, when they were out of SCIF control, would be foolish since there is no way to confirm whether or not copies were made.

Again, NARA's primary interest is in collecting the original documents for posterity.

I guess we could assume that those documents were held under lock in Mar-a-Lago and never viewed by anyone other than Trump, but that kinda shoots the shit out of the rest of your side's argument. :unsure:


LMAO... Trump needn't worry about NARA now, the DOJ's interest is in violations of the espionage act... Trump is screwed... Did they teach you about 18 USC 793 in your "field experience"?
 
No, it isn't false. Their whole justification is based claims of "national security risk" and claims that all documents have been accounted for and so no need for a third party to confirm. 54 pages reduced to "just trust us".



And who ensures that the DOJ actually does that without a third party audit? Oh right... "just trust us".



It's not made up. It's policy. But you don't even need the profession experience I have to conclude that the point I made is logical.

An example to clarify the policy: The US military is carrying out a clandestine mission to capture or kill an enemy commander. Before the mission happens, a forward observation post is compromised by a an attack and it is over run by the enemy. In that forward base were numerous NTN documents on the upcoming operation that were needed by the observation post to conduct support of the action. Without knowing if that information was compromised, does the mission move forward? Answer: No. Without information security, the mission is scrubbed.

The same holds true for other classified documents. Once documents are in the wild, you can't proceed as if they aren't because if you do the only people you are keeping in the dark are your own people.



Fair...ish point. But as per a previous argument, the DOJ is just behaving in the way they accused Trump of behaving. If they did their screening properly they have nothing to worry about in a third party audit. Their is no rush other than politically... which is to say there is no rush.


LMAO... The signs are getting clearer and clearer... Was your "field experience" that you once held a secret clearance?
 
If they have the clearance, yes, otherwise, no.


I don't think anyone should believe anything Trump, the GOP, or MAGA members say.



It's a delay tactic Trump is using to avoid prosecution until he can flee the country.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

You do realize that Trump is assigned secret service detail and is literally the most recognizable figure in the world, don't you?

Seriously, where is he going to go without advanced notice of where he is going? The bathroom?
 
Well it is about your inability to answer a question. But keep up the deflection.
LOL You funny. You bring up hillary and then start ranting that I'm deflecting by responding your Hillary nonsense. Then star flaming me for being a dishonest liar. You funny.
 
LOL You funny. You bring up hillary and then start ranting that I'm deflecting by responding your Hillary nonsense. Then star flaming me for being a dishonest liar. You funny.
Nope, you were talking about how it's suspicious that this investigation launched now. I just asked you if you thought it suspicious when the FBI announced their investigation into Clinton during the election.

You simply won't answer.

Keep deflecting.
 
The situation has changed.

Justice Dept. says it would accept Trump’s candidate for special master

The Justice Department filed court papers Monday signaling that it would accept a former chief federal judge in New York as a special master charged with reviewing papers seized by the FBI from former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence and club.

U.S. District Judge Aileen M. Cannon must approve Raymond J. Dearie’s appointment for the document review — which has stalled the Justice Department’s criminal probe — to go forward. Dearie was proposed by Trump’s lawyers last week, amid a legal battle over whether a special master should review the documents to determine whether any should be kept from federal prosecutors investigating the potential mishandling of classified material and the possible hiding, tampering or destruction of government records.

Dearie, 78, still serves as a judge in Brooklyn federal court, albeit on senior status, which means he can take a reduced caseload if he chooses. He was the U.S. attorney in Brooklyn in the 1980s — a time when the office’s workload was dominated by the pursuit of mobsters, gang leaders and financial fraudsters. Dearie was nominated to the federal bench by President Ronald Reagan

The next question to be answered: Who pays for the special master? Taxpayers or Trump?
 
I don't know, is it? Does it make a difference? I'm arguing appropriately from the position of classification policy that any classified documents that have been removed from the a controlled classified environment must be considered in the wild.

If you argue that those documents have been under secure control since leaving the White House such that they retain their classification status then the underlying assumption is that Trump didn't do what you want to accuse him of doing.

(and, again, Trump can't be guilty of what he is being accused of anyway since it was entirely within his legal prerogative to remove those documents and declassify them)
It makes a difference for your claim that we have to assume that only Trump had access to the documents.

And I am still waiting for your response to my post about the limited declassification powers of people who plan to declassify files in order to take them home.

Both of my points establish the fact that Trump mishandled classified info as a former president.
 
No, it isn't false. Their whole justification is based claims of "national security risk" and claims that all documents have been accounted for and so no need for a third party to confirm. 54 pages reduced to "just trust us".
Again, that's not all the multiple filings said, but your characterization of them isn't interesting to me.
And who ensures that the DOJ actually does that without a third party audit? Oh right... "just trust us".
Since when does a criminal suspect have some constitutional right to demand a third-party "audit" of the investigating agency? That is also sure as hell is not the role of a Special Master.

And such an audit is impossible. For any third party to "audit" whether the DoJ in fact copied all the documents seized, you need to start with an inventory of every document seized, and that does not exist except the inventory in the hands of the DoJ. Trump sure as hell has no idea what was in those boxes, which is his problem.
It's not made up. It's policy. But you don't even need the profession experience I have to conclude that the point I made is logical.
You moved the goal posts from USG has copies of all 11,000 documents, to something about classified documents being in the wild.
An example to clarify the policy: The US military is carrying out a clandestine mission to capture or kill an enemy commander. Before the mission happens, a forward observation post is compromised by a an attack and it is over run by the enemy. In that forward base were numerous NTN documents on the upcoming operation that were needed by the observation post to conduct support of the action. Without knowing if that information was compromised, does the mission move forward? Answer: No. Without information security, the mission is scrubbed.

The same holds true for other classified documents. Once documents are in the wild, you can't proceed as if they aren't because if you do the only people you are keeping in the dark are your own people.
I guess your point is we must assume that every document marked classified and held by Trump is "in the wild" because he deliberately released it or was compromised by the reckless way he stored them and so the IC must assume the bad guys have all the information. You're making the DoJ's point, which is nice.
Fair...ish point. But as per a previous argument, the DOJ is just behaving in the way they accused Trump of behaving.
And in fact that's nonsense. The DoJ accuses Trump of compromising national defense information, and obstructing the USG from determining what documents he recklessly stored, in part by lying through his teeth in response to a grand jury subpoena, asserting he'd returned all those documents marked classified and in fact retaining 100 of them that he did not disclose to the grand jury or the USG more broadly.
If they did their screening properly they have nothing to worry about in a third party audit. Their is no rush other than politically... which is to say there is no rush.
You're misrepresenting their position. DoJ's main problem involves the classified documents and what the judge, without any basis in the law, prohibited the executive branch from doing with those documents marked classified. What gives the SM, through the district court, the authority to make classification determinations? What gives the SM or the court or Trump the authority to dictate to the executive branch what the executive branch does with documents owned by the executive branch? That would include obviously the documents marked classified, but also Presidential Records.

Those are not just about time but establishing basic principles of the law, and if the judge just makes up the law, the obligation of the DoJ is to point that out, and appeal her made up law. Let the CA11 decide if these new legal principles apply only to Trump/FPOTUS's or are the new rules in her circuit and the 11th circuit for every defendant/suspect.
 
I don't know, is it? Does it make a difference? I'm arguing appropriately from the position of classification policy that any classified documents that have been removed from the a controlled classified environment must be considered in the wild.

If you argue that those documents have been under secure control since leaving the White House such that they retain their classification status then the underlying assumption is that Trump didn't do what you want to accuse him of doing.

(and, again, Trump can't be guilty of what he is being accused of anyway since it was entirely within his legal prerogative to remove those documents and declassify them)
It was his legal authority, but there's no evidence he did in fact "declassify" those documents.

If your position is that by removing them from their secure locations, he thereby and therefore "declassified" everything, while POTUS and post, and didn't bother to alert the IC that he had "declassified" everything that went through his fat fingers and took to the residence of the WH or threw in a box to accompany him to one of his resorts, then you're making a really damning point against Trump.

Your argument is at the core that anything Trump touched outside the secure storage was released to our enemies. That is some defense!
 
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