• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S. considering controlling exports to Russia if there is an invasion of Ukraine

PeacefulWarrior

I am not a robot.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
8,579
Reaction score
4,057
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
"considering" it....LMAO.:LOL::ROFLMAO::giggle:
 

TomFitz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
14,916
Reaction score
10,343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Putin is gonna slaughter a ton of pro democracy families in the Ukraine.

And our most religious groups will fall silent.

The trump dead Enders are beginning to parrot Moscow’s line already.
 

XDU

Banned
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
1,726
Reaction score
407
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Do you have any proof whatsoever that the Russian-speaking Eastern Ukrainians were deficit hawks who would rather suffer austerity than increased debt to prop up social spending and increase economic activity rather than more strongly identifying as Russian and wanting to be part of the Russian Federation versus feeling like being treated as second-class Ukrainian citizens?
This is the real beginning of what sparked everything:

 

anatta

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
7,417
Reaction score
3,808
Location
daily dukkha
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
This is the real beginning of what sparked everything:

thanks again. The Euromaidan is what sealed the deal for the Russian separatists - we were in the crowd ginning up the protests for revolution ( Robert Kagan /Vicky Nuland / John McCain). The Maidan led to the annexation as Sevastopol lease was earlier extended, but the Orange factions had threatened the lease before. With the Kyiv factions back in power Putin really had no choice but to secure access -and that meant annexation

Once again US meddling in foreign civil wars/ revolutions came back to bite us
 

XDU

Banned
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
1,726
Reaction score
407
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
np the biggest problem was the Russian Hoax which absolutely poisoned US/Russian relations.
Trump wanted to improve US/Russians relations where possible. The INTEL agencies would have no part of it and used
The Steele Dossier ( specifically the FBI) when they knew it was bogus against Trump to stop him -and it worked.

Trump wound up being a hawk because his NSC and the politics of even talking diplomacy to Putin were used against him
It's more complicated than that.

The real issue there is how Hillary was a feminist political candidate, and Russia had become increasingly anti-feminist ever since ***** Riot's antics against the Orthodox Church during Obama's second term. A political opportunity arrived to exploit the neoconservative foreign policy card since America and Russia competed in the Middle East for generations over petrodollars fueling materialistic consumerism which feminism allied with.

After all, it's so about how Muslims treat their women, right?
 

anatta

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
7,417
Reaction score
3,808
Location
daily dukkha
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It's more complicated than that.

The real issue there is how Hillary was a feminist political candidate, and Russia had become increasingly anti-feminist ever since ***** Riot's antics against the Orthodox Church during Obama's second term. A political opportunity arrived to exploit the neoconservative foreign policy card since America and Russia competed in the Middle East for generations over petrodollars fueling materialistic consumerism which feminism allied with.

After all, it's so about how Muslims treat their women, right?
not sure I follow all that - but i always try to listen and glean some understandings. thanks.
The Russian Hoax had Hillary paying for dezenformatsia - to accuse Trump of the preposterous notion he was Putin's puppet.
It certainly opened up my eyes to the fact our intelligence agencies (Brennan was openly campaigning for Hillay at CIA headquarters) - and should be considered when evaluating such Russiaphobic utterings
 

Nomad4Ever

The tolerant left? I'm the intolerant left.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
6,215
Reaction score
6,726
Location
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
What exactly is the end goal of the Russians in taking the Ukraine? Further annexation of all or some of it? Taking Kiev and installing a Kremlin-friendly autocrat like was done in Chechnya? Ukraine has a population of 44 million against Russia's 144 million. This isn't a miniscule country like Georgia with a population of less than 4 million, or Chechnya with its population less than 1.5 million. Their army will punch through the Ukrainian battle lines like a bullet through a beer can. But then what? What else will there be but a massive suppurating guerilla war to drain the blood and what little treasure remains of a massive country like Russia whose GDP is less than that of Italy's?
My personal theory is that this is little more than Putin trying to use nationalism to rally domestic support for himself. I think they are going to annex Donbas, claim victory domestically, and for the time being leave it at that. I imagine Russia hopes Donbas to too small of an infringement to provoke Western into nations retaliating beyond sanctions, whereas an occupation of Ukraine would probably bankrupt Russia. Strategically at least, this move makes more sense to me than trying to occupy all of Ukraine.

My fear though is that I don't think this ends with Bonbas. I think Russia is going to keep annexing larger and larger tracts of land to push the boundaries of what they can get away with. Maybe in 5 years they annex the rest of Ukraine, or go after parts of Belarus.
 

Metric Mouse

Your hi-top sneakers and your sailor tattoos.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
13,945
Reaction score
3,250
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
What exactly is the end goal of the Russians in taking the Ukraine? Further annexation of all or some of it? Taking Kiev and installing a Kremlin-friendly autocrat like was done in Chechnya? Ukraine has a population of 44 million against Russia's 144 million. This isn't a miniscule country like Georgia with a population of less than 4 million, or Chechnya with its population less than 1.5 million. Their army will punch through the Ukrainian battle lines like a bullet through a beer can. But then what? What else will there be but a massive suppurating guerilla war to drain the blood and what little treasure remains of a massive country like Russia whose GDP is less than that of Italy's?
The goal is to form land borders that are defensible with an army 2/3 the size it has now as their demographics implode, and secure year-round shipping ports.

I thought that this was common knowledge.
 

TomFitz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
14,916
Reaction score
10,343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
np the biggest problem was the Russian Hoax which absolutely poisoned US/Russian relations.
Trump wanted to improve US/Russians relations where possible. The INTEL agencies would have no part of it and used
The Steele Dossier ( specifically the FBI) when they knew it was bogus against Trump to stop him -and it worked.

Trump wound up being a hawk because his NSC and the politics of even talking diplomacy to Putin were used against him


I already commented on the parochial and ill informed comments of another trump apologist. It’s sad to see the flat earth talk radio world view everything through the narrow lens of gotcha talk radio and cable tv “news”.

It’s also sad to see trump loster till parroting Moscow’s line after all these years.

Rather than bother with the BS claims about the “Russian Hoax” fake story that trump nation loved so much, I’ll just ask you the same question the every Trump loser scrupulously avoids every time I ask it.

Why we’re Russian intelligence operatives in meetings with Trump campaign officials in the middle of a Presidential election campaign???

And what was the reason behind the almost routine meetings between Trump campaign officials and allies and Russian intelligence operative throughout the campaign and beyond.

We already know why Guliani was meeting his Russian counterparts in Ukraine in 2019.

Yes, i am one of those Americans who find Tucker Carlson’s parroting of the Kremlin line disgusting and disloyal.
 

TomFitz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
14,916
Reaction score
10,343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
My personal theory is that this is little more than Putin trying to use nationalism to rally domestic support for himself. I think they are going to annex Donbas, claim victory domestically, and for the time being leave it at that. I imagine Russia hopes Donbas to too small of an infringement to provoke Western into nations retaliating beyond sanctions, whereas an occupation of Ukraine would probably bankrupt Russia. Strategically at least, this move makes more sense to me than trying to occupy all of Ukraine.

My fear though is that I don't think this ends with Bonbas. I think Russia is going to keep annexing larger and larger tracts of land to push the boundaries of what they can get away with. Maybe in 5 years they annex the rest of Ukraine, or go after parts of Belarus.

It won‘t.
 

TomFitz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
14,916
Reaction score
10,343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
The goal is to form land borders that are defensible with an army 2/3 the size it has now as their demographics implode, and secure year-round shipping ports.

I thought that this was common knowledge.

The shipping ports piece was achieved with the invasion of Crimea.

I don’t see how Russia thinks it would or could reduce its army by 1/3 and still defend its longest border with its real greatest rival.
 

Metric Mouse

Your hi-top sneakers and your sailor tattoos.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
13,945
Reaction score
3,250
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I don’t see how Russia thinks it would or could reduce its army by 1/3 and still defend its longest border with its real greatest rival.
a: They won't have a choice.

b: you should look at a map.
 

anatta

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
7,417
Reaction score
3,808
Location
daily dukkha
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Why we’re Russian intelligence operatives in meetings with Trump campaign officials in the middle of a Presidential election campaign???

And what was the reason behind the almost routine meetings between Trump campaign officials and allies and Russian intelligence operative throughout the campaign and beyond.
if you are going to reference specific questions, cite so I can see exactly what/when you mean

In the meantime I refer you to Mueller and no evidence of Russian collusion findings
 

CaughtInThe

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
61,046
Reaction score
40,767
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I cant be too worried about that.
I'm more concerned about the families that the USA slaughtered during its Shock & Awe terror attacks.
And still slaughters to this day via its proxy hired mercenary thugs like Blackwater and others.

Ukraine will have to be the problem of the folks that live there, and their neighbors. I wish them luck!(y)
Luck won't help them. They'll be slaughtered if they oppose Putin.
 

PeacefulWarrior

I am not a robot.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
8,579
Reaction score
4,057
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Luck won't help them. They'll be slaughtered if they oppose Putin.

OK. I'll send flowers...if I can find the time.
What am I supposed to do? Worry about everyone and everything on earth? I dont have any problems of my one, so I'm worried about the other side of the world?

What about all those Iraqis and everyone else that the USA murdered? The US should stop doing that, and that will be one LESS thing for me to care about. I'm not looking for MORE things. I'm looking for LESS complication, not more. The EU will have to step up for Ukraine if they want, its their neighbor.
 

Felis Leo

Moral clarity is needed
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
10,694
Reaction score
13,313
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The goal is to form land borders that are defensible with an army 2/3 the size it has now as their demographics implode, and secure year-round shipping ports.

I thought that this was common knowledge.

Russia has that. They now own and occupy Crimea. It will almost certainly never go back to Ukraine. I do not see what a further invasion buys the Kremlin that does not risk losing them far more than it gains.
 

snakestretcher

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 25, 2019
Messages
36,568
Reaction score
13,863
Location
Devonshire, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal

A big goal of this move is to keep new iphones out of Russia. In my opinion, this is a big deal. Russians love love love love their iphones. There is no phenomenon like it in America. It is difficult to underestimate their role as a status symbol in that part of the world.

If Russians learned that Putin's sabre-rattling toward Ukraine caused America to take away its iphones?

Anyone with a child and a cookie jar on top of the refrigerator knows what that would be like.

Find American goods that Russians actually value and take them away, thereby eroding Putin's support. Love it.
So they won't be buying their iPhones from China where they're made?
 

snakestretcher

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 25, 2019
Messages
36,568
Reaction score
13,863
Location
Devonshire, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
So I guess the older generations had a positive experience as citizens of the USSR? Want to return to those better days? Not the anti-Soviet propaganda I was taught as a pup. I've often wondered how these folks reared in communism actually feel about it--probably not as bad as we think.

Interesting, Yakshi. Be their ambassador for us, please. Tell us more.
 

CaughtInThe

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
61,046
Reaction score
40,767
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
OK. I'll send flowers...if I can find the time.
What am I supposed to do? Worry about everyone and everything on earth? I dont have any problems of my one, so I'm worried about the other side of the world?

What about all those Iraqis and everyone else that the USA murdered? The US should stop doing that, and that will be one LESS thing for me to care about. I'm not looking for MORE things. I'm looking for LESS complication, not more. The EU will have to step up for Ukraine if they want, its their neighbor.
We don't have to send flowers. They'll have friends and family that can mourn them privately out of the view of the Russian government.
 

Juin

Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
1,666
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Maybe Putin needs a nationalistic enhancing distraction from discontent at home. Wouldn't be the first war started for similar reasons. Then he can blame the failing economy etc on the degenerates in the west rather than anything he has done.




There is disconnect in Russia? Where?
 
  • Like
Reactions: XDU

Juin

Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
1,666
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It did happen, anatta. Russia invaded and then annexed sovereign territory of the Ukraine by holding an unconstitutional referendum in a heavily ethnically Russian-dominated enclave to become an exclave of Russia.



Why should the referendum have been constitutional or unconstitutional? I do not furthermore see how it was any more unconstitutional than the eviction of the then Ukrainian President Victor Yanukovych in Kiev.





It would be little different than Mexico invading and then annexing San Diego because the ethnically-Mexican population of San Diego County voted to rejoin Mexico.


Context. It matters. If a coup in DC had overthrown a US Mexican American President to replace with an Anglo then Mexican Americans in San Diego may be forgiven if they figured they are unlikely to get a fair shake in an Anglo dominated DC
 

Yakshi

Everyone is a foreigner almost everywhere.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
8,824
Reaction score
8,085
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
So they won't be buying their iPhones from China where they're made?

Good point. I don't know how they expect to make it work. I would expect that such a move would require the cooperation of foreign allies and trade partners.

If the article is accurate, then a similar move against Huawei caused their revenue to drop sharply.
 

anatta

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
7,417
Reaction score
3,808
Location
daily dukkha
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Top Bottom