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U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

Rogue Valley

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U.S. blocks Turkey's F-35 equipment over S-400 deal with Russia

Vice President Mike Pence recently warned that the U.S. "will not stand idly by while NATO allies purchase weapons from our adversaries."


I rarely agree with the Trump administration on anything, but I do agree here, albeit for probably differing reasons. I believe that transferring sophisticated US military technology to a nation openly embracing Moscow and Iran is just asking for trouble. I tend to believe the Trump administration here is acting principally for MIC reasons. They would much rather the Turks purchase the US Patriot anti-air system rather than Russia's S-400 system.

IMO, Turkey stopped being a bona-fide trustworthy NATO nation after Erdogan's Gülen-Putsch of 2016. More journalists are imprisoned in Turkey than anywhere else on the planet. I also haven't forgotten that Erdogan's security goons attacked protesters in the US during a May 2017 visit by Erdogan to Washington. The assault charges were quietly dropped by US prosecutors in March of 2018.
 
Distasteful as it is, if we're gong to continue to set up allies as franchises of the US military, we should make certain it remains exclusive.

Half the point of NATO is to support U.S. arms sales.

Whoops, I meant to support equipment standardization!
 

There is only one of two things they are afraid of, either the f-35 is a paper tiger and a joke the s-400 will easily see and when it gets out it will cripple sales, or the f-35 is all that and that turkey will use the s-400 to assist russia in targeting computers.

I say targeting because russia already can track the f-35 and the f-22 quite easily, they have even been tracking israels use of them from syria, L band can track stealth quite easily. What is unknown is how well their other bands work, all radar bands can track and target stealth aircraft, but the issue is range it can target since L band is useless for guiding missiles it is assumes the other bands would be used to guide the missile. how well they worked to make other bands better at targeting stealth at longer ranges is unknown, and the main tracking radar against stealth L band is usually unable to guide due to clutter.
 

Could be. Or as I already stated. 1) The Pentagon would rather NATO countries purchase NATO compliant weapons systems and 2) The USMIC needs US allies to purchase US military equipment when applicable. This is how R&D/production costs are more quickly amortized.
 

I doubt it has to do with just needing to sell nato compliant weapons. Putting nato and russian equipment side by side may show deficiencies or simply even give the russians valuable information.

One other thing russia is starting to push nato compliant gear, their mig35 is going to be offered in us compliant databus, and their new ak variants are going to be offered in 7.62 by 51 nato. I am sure nato compliant rules will change very shortly to being nato compliant manufactured in only xyz nations.
 
beerftw said:
I doubt it has to do with just needing to sell nato compliant weapons.
Click to expand...

NATO nations strive to design/manufacture/procure weapons and ammunition that are NATO approved/compatible. Were do you get this stuff?
 
Rogue Valley said:
NATO nations strive to design/manufacture/procure weapons and ammunition that are NATO approved/compatible. Were do you get this stuff?
Click to expand...

You literally did not know the former soviet bloc in nato is still extremely reliant on soviet gear?

here the french and the spanish are planning to buy russian gear
NATO units to purchase latest Russian-made tactical clothing - Russia Beyond

congress has tried to act to deter eastern european nato nations away from soviet gear,To Help NATO Allies Get Off Russian Equipment, the United States Should Revive Defense Lending - War on the Rocks

The russians simply saw a big market in nato compliant gear and are testing the waters to see how much they can steal from the us in sales. Countries like bulgaria romania poland etc can not afford american or british or even french gear, and russia is simply trying to capitalize on that.
 
Now back to the OP topic.....

Erdogan says Russia missile deal to go ahead after US suspension




Erdogan wants his own weapons rules and everything on his own terms.
 


Your Russian propaganda fails again corporal. No one has to track and read Sputnik News in Moscow cause we get it here and directly from you. And in hustled up run-on sentences besides.


Moscow-run news agencies are touting Russia’s ability to undermine the U.S.’s F-35 stealth fighter jet, but the Pentagon is not worried.

Sputnik News, headquartered in Moscow, reported earlier this week that Russia has three radar stations that can detect and track the fifth-generation jet. The article, titled “I See You,” says that Russian technology can undermine the F-35’s core strength of stealth.

“The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is the most advanced aircraft in the Pentagon’s arsenal,” Sputnik News says. “Russia’s powerful over-the-horizon Podsolnukh (Sunflower) radar is capable of detecting and tracking the stealth fifth-generation plane or any other fighter jet that was designed to avoid detection,” Sputnik said.

Despite Russia’s assertions, the Pentagon is confident in the F-35’s ability to perform in combat. “Don’t believe the hype,” Joe DellaVedova, a spokesperson for the Joint Strike Fighter program office said. While it is possible that Russia’s radar can detect and even track the F-35 — no stealth jet can perfectly evade radar all the time — the Pentagon is not concerned about Russia’s radar power because the F-35 can interrupt multiple parts of the enemy’s attack.

When China claimed in February that they could track the F-22 Raptor, National Interest wrote that “stealth is not a cloak of invisibility, after all. Stealth technology simply delays detection and tracking.” Even if Russia’s Sunflower radar is capable of detecting or tracking the plane, the stealth fighter has enough other capabilities to be effective in defensive or offensive scenarios.

Like other advanced systems, the F-35’s value is determined by how well it breaks up what the military calls the enemy’s “kill chain.” All attacks follow the kill chain structure. Shooting at something is only one part of the total attack. Offensive strikes always start with identifying the target, restricting and tracking its movement. Radar is one of the key tools used for identifying and tracking targets.

Only when the target is stable can the [Russian] attack move on to aiming, firing and ensuring the target is down. The beauty of the kill chain, at least for [F-35 and F-22] defensive purposes, is that if you break just one link, your enemy [Russia] can’t kill you. “Tracking is only one piece of the kill chain,” DellaVedova said. “The F-35 is well-equipped to disrupt, disable and destroy various links in the chain.”

Russia Brags It Can Detect and Track New US F-35 Stealth Jet | The Stream


DellaVedova is presenting the facts of US air capabilities offensively and defensively. You in a direct contrast are presenting Putin Russian propaganda which is nothing new as it is what you do consistently and unrelentingly in the vast majority of your posts to the Military Forum in thread after thread over an extended period of time.
 
The incoming USAF General who will be Supreme Allied Commander of Nato and chief of US Forces Europe wants the entire F-35 program to Turkey stopped due to likely espionage by Turkey to Russia. Gen. Tod Wolters who is being advanced from his position as Chief of Nato Air Forces wants the training stopped in USA of Turkish pilots of F-35. His outgoing predecessor Army Gen. Curtis Scaparotti says the same thing. Here's more of how they want no more of it.


General Tapped to Head NATO: Cancel F-35 Sales to Turkey


Gen. Tod D. Wolters participates in the "Fighting Under Fire" panel and discusses projecting power during the Air Force Association Air, Space and Cyber Conference in National Harbor, Maryland, Sept. 17, 2018. (U.S. Air Force/Andy Morataya)


Gen. Tod Wolters, now serving as the senior Air Force officer in Europe, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that he backed steps taken to end Turkish pilot training on the F-35 at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., and to hold up or cancel the sale of the fighters to Ankara.

Turkey having a Russian air defense system and the American- designed aircraft was “absolutely unsustainable” as options, Wolters said. Proprietary and classified information concerning the aircraft would be exposed to Russian espionage.

Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., said the planned S-400 buy was concerning and “not the action that one would expect from an ally,” while Sen. Thom Tillis, R-N.C., expressed his “personal concern.” “Turkey is a partner in the supply chain in the Joint Strike Fighter, so we not only have to look at whether we can transfer those assets to Turkey, but we also have to determine what role Turkey could play in the supply chain,” Tillis said.

The remarks came a day after the U.S. stopped delivery of F-35 fighter jet parts and manuals needed to prepare for the aircraft’s planned delivery this summer.

Russia Brags That It Can Detect And Track New F-35 Stealth Jet | The Daily Caller



The generals say the S-400s are not only incompatible with NATO systems, but operating the F-35 alongside an advanced Russian system designed to shoot it down would be tantamount to handing over classified F-35 flight profile information to the Russians.

Trump's stooge Acting SecDef Shanahan says he remains confident Erdogan will agree with the Pentagon and reject Putin's designs in Turkey against the USA and Nato. We're seeing Turkey as it is becoming a Putin Trojan Horse inside Nato and the US F-35 program and in other ways against the USA national security, national sovereignty and European continental security. The Putin Fanboys in USA love it.
 

It is simply not changing fast enough, and russia is just cashing in on a market they can exploit.


In my opinion if nations like bulgaria and poland and others were too poor to meet strict requirements for nato, they either never should have joined or other nato nations should have subsidized their equipment, it does little good to claim x amount of aircraft against russia if quite a few are mig 21's and most so ragged and exceeding their airframe lifetime that they would fall out of the sky before they ever saw combat, or saying x amount of tanks but many being outdated t-72 62 and 55 tanks, because the eastern nato nations can not afford them.

I really hate the we need them this modern gear so we will loan them money they can not afford to pay back idea, if america wants them that bad they can send them second hand gear, america can hand over older f-16's, europe can hand over older model gripens eurofighters etc, same with tanks europe can send older model leopards etc, this goes the same with any gear.
 

Well this is quite your hubris again, the sr-71 was close to modern stealth in terms of radar signature, yet sam sites had no issue locking on to them or firing at them, their only issue was the sr71 was too fast for sam's to compensate expending too much energy. If ancient 1950's sams from the soviet union could target the sr-71 with the rcs of a tiny bird, what is to stop modern sams from targetting a f-35 with the radar signature of a gold ball? It is literally as if the air force wiz kids think the soviet union has made no progress in sam's since the 1950's or literally did not bother to research past us military experiences to understand what they are dealing with.
 

Your post has nothing to do with the F-35 and the Russki S-400 system except a question based in speculation. Your every post tries to promote Russian armed forces and weapons platforms as if there were nothing the US could do except to capitulate and surrender. That's if USA had any sense which you say we don't have.

You've never discussed kill chain which is the fundamental US approach against incoming. The kill chain has numerous aspects and points to it and all US does is pick one of the functions to wreck the entire chain. It's in the post above yet you skipped it and ran back to the 1950s for something or other that's supposed to mean something today. You might need to wonder instead what the US kill chain focus is against the S-400. The Nato designation of the Russian S-400 is Growler btw, because of how it sounds when you turn it on. What I hear is that it sounds like a bear in agony.
 

The kill chain relies on tracking targeting and firing at the enemy as well as hitting it, all of those occurred against the sr71 with the most ancient of technologies in terms of sam systems, and the sr-71 survived through speed alone not stealth.

So if an sr-71 at it's normal altitude is not much more visible than a f-35, and russians had close to 70 years to expand upon that tech, either the air force people are delusional as you are or the russians are still running 1950's tech with zero impovements, I severely doubt the latter.

Oh and you claims of promoting russian arms, this crap is easily researchable, you just flat out refuse to do any research other than finding a person who says what you want them to say, wars are not won by pretending to be the best while assuming your enemy is the worst, they are won by being the best and considering your enemy better than you, over estimating your enemy has no downside and can even be an upside by eliminating your enemy in a rapid and efficient manner, underestimating your enemy and over estimating your own powers is a sure recipe for failure and one practiced by every superpower in world history upon their collapse.
 

Your pretentious and failed lecturing and scolding of Americans only, combined with your one sided presentations alleging Russian weapons superiority, done over many months in many instances, revealed long ago your support for Russia against the United States. I do not believe for an instant that your interests are for the United States. Your absolute hostile attacks on my comments and observations of your posts reveal your anti-American temperament. You offer nothing positive toward the United States or for those who support, preserve, defend the United States. You reject all criticisms of your pro-Russian posts which are your only posts.

I've never questioned your claims to US Army service, enlisted and National Guard. I have said it is rather a pretend patriotism and a pretense by which you and your handlers believe you can promote Russia. (Putin on one hand bagged himself a three-star general in Flynn while we here get a pfc of the NG.) Your trying to paint me and others who argue for the United States as fools only and always in all things exposes you as not a friend of the United States. There is nothing positive about you toward the United States or toward those who advocate the USA verses its enemies as they've been identified by the Pentagon. Your enemies here are those we identify as on the left while your allies here are on the Putin-Trump Right. It's your natural habitat.
 

Another Tangmo special.

Heavy on insults and insinuating.

Light on the facts and logic.

Everyone who knows and discusses Russian capabilities is painted as being in thrall to the Russians.

A comment about rank. (usually derogatory)

Claims that one is un-American.

And that is all in the first paragraph.

The second paragraph is dedicated to whining that people tend not to believe Tangmo served. A belief prompted by Tangmo's own posts. A history of which finds the only people he has not libeled being.... Wait. Now he is going after a NON-NCO enlisted. That leaves the unlibeled military at zero.

Good job.
 

Isn't it obvious?

The only people who dare discuss the capabilities of the Russian must be Russian!

This kind of mindset is the same as the US hubris that had the US superior in all things military compared to the Japanese leading to Pearl Harbor, the horrors off Guadalcanal and mucho Americans killed in the first years of WWII.

Witnesses to the ability of the Zero were ignored. The Kate was better that our Devastators. Their surface ships in many ways as good or better than ours. Their submarines were often better, but misused.

All ignored because "US be the bestest and anyone disagreeing is a fifth column traitor".
 
Turkey says it will go to Russia if US won't sell it military equipment


This relationship just isn't working out. Erdogan has turned Turkey into an authoritarian state that assisted ISIS and has imprisoned more journalists than any other nation in the world. Attributes that are anathema the NATO alliance. Erdogan also wants to cleanse northern Syria of the Kurds that have been the main US allies on the ground against ISIS since late in 2014. He has also aligned with Assad and Iran in Syria (looking to steal Syrian oil). In addition, Erdogan is much too close to the Putin regime and the Kremlin's military industrial complex. Quite simply, I don't trust Erdogan one iota. And I certainly don't trust the Erdogan regime with highly sophisticated US military platform technology that he can pilfer to Moscow.
 
Nato led by the United States can control the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus against Russia and the Black Sea without Turkey in Nato. The US has strong allies in the ME and the Horn of Africa beyond Israel such as Qatar and Bahrain among others. Erdogan has made the Turkish military into a Party-Military in the same way Beijing has always had its armed forces as a Party-Military rather than a state professional military.

So it may be time to provide some serious consideration...


It’s time for Turkey and NATO to go their separate ways

August 16, 2018

The question of what Turkey might do if the United States cuts it loose is valid. But when Turkey’s proponents cite its importance in the war against the Islamic State, they neglect to mention that the Islamic State only thrived because Turkey allowed foreign fighters and equipment to cross its borders.

Writing in the New York Times, Erdogan himself warned that continued “disrespect will require us to start looking for new friends and allies,” an unsubtle threat that he might pivot toward Russia. But, in many ways, he already has. Erdogan has made it clear that he aims to purchase Russian S-400 missiles, which, if integrated into Turkish air-defense systems, might compromise NATO air-defense secrets to Russian engineers. Those counseling a softer line point out that Erdogan’s strategy is, in part, transactional. This is true, but that is all the more reason to second-guess Turkey’s role in collective defense. After all, when a crisis erupts, NATO members must rally together, not engage in bidding wars with Washington and Moscow over who deserves its loyalty.

Indeed, the real danger to NATO is not that Turkey will withdraw or pivot to Russia, but rather that it remains inside. Because NATO decisions are consensual, Turkey can play the proverbial Trojan Horse to filibuster any action when crisis looms. It is true there is no clear mechanism to expel NATO members – but NATO’s survival nonetheless requires purging Turkey. The West should call Erdogan’s bluff.

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=ex...lang=en-US&w=TIuK3TzcyvZoi1pjuu9SKCN-P-vAdUxw





Erdogan has himself said he's invested almost $1 billion dollars in acquiring the F-35 airframe. It sounds much too important to Erdogan the Putin wannabe tyrant and autocrat for the US and Nato to trust him about it.


WHY TURKISH F-35S ARE A THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES AND NATO

Imagine, for a moment, a hypothetical country rapidly spiraling towards autocracy, illegally arresting American citizens, imprisoning journalists, and attacking American-supported forces. Now imagine that same country actively purchasing Russian surface-to-air missile systems and erecting missile defense sites around its territory. In such a hypothetical, it would be difficult to assume that the United States would ever support or even arm such a country.

Unfortunately, this is not a hypothetical scenario. Not only is the U.S. treaty-bound to an alliance with such a country, it is actively engaged in efforts to sell fifth generation attack aircraft to it. The country in question, Turkey, and its drive toward acquiring a fleet of F-35s represents a serious threat to American national security and technological superiority. Fortunately, this threat has not been ignored by American policymakers, though more can be done to secure American aerial supremacy.

In light of Turkey’s increased relationship with Russia, commitment to purchasing Russian weapon systems, and rapid devolution into a modern autocracy, Washington’s best interest lies in denying the sale of further F-35 airframes to Turkey. The F-35 is critical to the future of American and NATO air superiority. It cannot be used as just another political chip on the global chessboard. Should it be sold to Turkey without Ankara’s cancellation of the S-400 deal, the F-35 could be compromised before it even takes flight as America’s primary strike fighter.

Why Turkish F-35s are a Threat to the United States and NATO
 

So you think all the US Air Force folks are delusional due to them seeing the advantages of stealth, which would also mean the air forces of virtually every other major military power that can afford to including Russia are delusional as well as they are all working on stealth aircraft. So what background do you have in this field that leads you to believe you are more knowledgeable them the rest of the world's militaries.
 

There are advantages to stealth, the delusions are the idea it makes them invulnerable to sam sites through disrupting kill chains. The navy and the air force differ even though both operate massive number of aircraft. the airforce believes stealth is a massive advantage, while the navy views it as a lesser advantage and believes counters to stealth will be devised just as fast as new means of stealth are.

The sr-71 was stealth by todays standards, it however was done for different reasons, it was not made to be undetectable, or make it invisible to sam sites, they had no delusions about being targetted, rather they aimed to shorten detection range which was combined with speed. This worked very well for the sr-71, however most modern stealth does not have close to that speed to back it, and the russians use multi band search and track not just x and ku bands which all stealth aircraft try to be stealthy against. Further stealth is eliminated if multiple radars are used as a large part of stealth is bouncing signals in different directions, but fails if radars are positioned outside the sender to recieve the signal and are linked.

But my real gripe with delusion in the airforce goes much farther than this, these are the same wizkids who believed in vietnam dogfights were dead and stripped training for dogfights, as well as guns and relied on missiles only because their testing in sterile evironments said they had a near perfect record, when in actual use the missiles performed so poorly that the side who still had guns on their craft dominated in dogfights. They eventually re instated dogfight training and guns into aircraft, and aircraft like the f-15 and f-16 were made from the lessons learned from the mqassive number of aircraft lost in vietnam.


You also have these same wizkids wanting to replace the a-10 every year, and every time it came down to it the a-10 proved to be extremely valuable and replacements proposed by the air force like the f-16 and f-35 proved to be vastly inferior for the task. This leads me to believe actual mission effectiveness was a second thought for the air force over marketing and hype.



Also the russians only built the stealth fighter for india, they have since the 1960's even before america ever built a stealth anything considered stealth too easy to counter. China on the other hand has invested heavily in stealth, and is constantly mocked by india for being seen by their russian jets using israeli radar systems.
 

You can gripe all you want, but russia does have many thing superior to the us and the us has many things superior to russia, only a fool thinks too highly of themselves and assumes it brings superiority.

During ww2 the us was deemed inferior to britain, and germany, and japan militarily, they all had better tech than the us, but britain was on americas side and america went from being an underdog to winning that war without any technological superiority. If the war had been based off of technology and training, the us and allied forces would have lost ww2. Germany however made the mistake of underestimating western europe as well as the soviet union. britain refused to surrender which allowed the us to enter the fight through a single gateway and created a chain effect liberating other areas and increasing manpower, and the soviet union was thought to be over run quickly by germany, in which they found the russians would not give up and exploited their own terrain and winter turning it into a long battle that drained germany's recources away from the western front.

Case and point germany then had superior tech, well train soldiers and yet they lost the war to countries that were inferior to them, they lost because pf hubris, they under estimated the resolve of the british to never surrender, they under estimated americas recources and industrial base, and they under estimated the soviet unions manpower and stubborness no matter how bleak the outlook.
 

Trying to make the argument that stealth doesn't make a plane invisible is nothing more then a strawman as I have yet to see anyone here and for sure not people who design planes for the air force claim it does. You should probably stick to arguing against things people are actually saying.

As far as the SR71 being stealth by today's standards it has a considerable larger RCS then the F35 or F22.


And Russia invested a lot of time and money in the SU57 for something you claim they think is not worth the effort.


Finally while I love the A10s as much as anyone I also understand thier limitations. They are great against an enemy like Afghanistan or Iraq but would be all but useless against a peer or near peer enemy.

In the end I think your claims of the Air Force being delusional are little more then you thinking you know more then people who have vast amounts of education and experience doing their job. And you not want to state how your background gives you the knowledge to make such a claim is rather telling.
 
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