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U.S. and NAFTA

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CodydeBeer

The united states has recently imposed tariffs on Canda's softwood lumber, going against NAFTA and even after several succesful appeals by the canadian government to the NAFTA tribunal the U.S. still has not lifted these tariffs. I just wanted to know where everyone stands on this issue and if you think this could escalate into the abolition of free trade between the U.S. and Canada?
 

128shot

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jamesrage said:
**** NAFTA,**** CAFTA and **** world trade.


Wow, I smell a pot of hatred here.



I'm pro free trade. It'll help us all in the end, I'm sure.
 

Canuck

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America does not honor any treaties never has
it doesn't even honor it's own constitution
which has been changed and twisted over the years into a mess
geneiva convention not honored, nafta not honored, ETC..
they have bugged the UN building
lied to the un with forged docs.
honor is not associated with America in any shape or form
they believe they are above international laws,and that no other outside
pressure means anything
they have alienated themselves from the rest of the world
Because all america wants is complete world dominance
they cant get world dominance and poor little georgie boy along with his general staff of idiots are material for the comedy hour
madmen in power that grab oil and kill 100,000 civilians to secure their future oil .
Imagine america a measly 5% of the world's population , consumes 25% of the world's oil ,thinks that it can be above the law
I say America owes the world at least 25% of the polution clean up bill
and another heavy price for all the war crimes past present and future that it does in the name of democracy bush style
 

Ether

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CodydeBeer said:
The united states has recently imposed tariffs on Canda's softwood lumber, going against NAFTA and even after several succesful appeals by the canadian government to the NAFTA tribunal the U.S. still has not lifted these tariffs. I just wanted to know where everyone stands on this issue and if you think this could escalate into the abolition of free trade between the U.S. and Canada?
This is a difficult issue. On the one hand, the US claims that Canada is indirectly subsidizing the lumber industry through state-determined prices on public forestlands. On the other hand, can we then justify retaliatory tariffs in order to offset Canada's "unfair advantage"? I have always been skeptical of mercantilist attempts to keep trade "fair", and to reciprocate increases or decreases in trade barriers as a matter of policy. Trade wars benefit no one except for the politicians and the specific interest groups which support them.

Under a legal perspective, the US is clearly in the wrong and is neglecting its treaty obligations. But from an economic standpoint I don't really think either side is correct.

And this will not escalate into the abolition of free trade - no government is that stupid.
 

Canuck

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Ether said:
This is a difficult issue. On the one hand, the US claims that Canada is indirectly subsidizing the lumber industry through state-determined prices on public forestlands. On the other hand, can we then justify retaliatory tariffs in order to offset Canada's "unfair advantage"? I have always been skeptical of mercantilist attempts to keep trade "fair", and to reciprocate increases or decreases in trade barriers as a matter of policy. Trade wars benefit no one except for the politicians and the specific interest groups which support them.

Under a legal perspective, the US is clearly in the wrong and is neglecting its treaty obligations. But from an economic standpoint I don't really think either side is correct.

And this will not escalate into the abolition of free trade - no government is that stupid.
I agree but Canada went to the courts and won their case
as for the 76% of America's exports that canda buys from America

What if canda decided to not take anymore or greatly reduced these imports
is America willing to cancel out its exports
76% is alot of exports to loose and lots of money too
 

TwoPops4Sure

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Canuck said:
America does not honor any treaties never has
it doesn't even honor it's own constitution
which has been changed and twisted over the years into a mess
geneiva convention not honored, nafta not honored, ETC..
they have bugged the UN building
lied to the un with forged docs.
honor is not associated with America in any shape or form
they believe they are above international laws,and that no other outside
pressure means anything
they have alienated themselves from the rest of the world
Because all america wants is complete world dominance
they cant get world dominance and poor little georgie boy along with his general staff of idiots are material for the comedy hour
madmen in power that grab oil and kill 100,000 civilians to secure their future oil .
Imagine america a measly 5% of the world's population , consumes 25% of the world's oil ,thinks that it can be above the law
I say America owes the world at least 25% of the polution clean up bill
and another heavy price for all the war crimes past present and future that it does in the name of democracy bush style

Why don't you tell us about Canada's Constitution and Charter of Rights. Should the USS sue Canada for plagarism..LOL. You've had a constitution how long now? And are you still a British subject or are you a Canuck as of 1956. Children should be seen and not heard.

You seem to spend a lot of time on these boards throwing out gratuitious insults against Americans. Whereas anyone is welcome to contribute in these forums, I am more than certain that many of us find no use for these types of inflamatory references. These days, the only thing I'm beginning to hate worse than George Bush is a sanctimonious Canadian with a "identity crisis". Having spent a lot of time in Canada, this seems to be endemic in Canucks.

TwoPops
 

TwoPops4Sure

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Canuck said:
I agree but Canada went to the courts and won their case
as for the 76% of America's exports that canda buys from America

What if canda decided to not take anymore or greatly reduced these imports
is America willing to cancel out its exports
76% is alot of exports to loose and lots of money too
Fight fire with fire and quite whining like a little baby on this softwood issue. We have been dancing on this for some 20 or 30 years. Canada has a history of protectionalism in many of its industries. Your country and your government is no different than anyone else. You act in your own best interest.

Why not find alternative markets for your lumber? Or if you're really feeling froggy, place trade sanctions on the US in retaliation. And don't let the fact that buy 85+ percent of your exports bother you. I'm sure you'll find some other economy that will readily purchase your output. Nah..you guys are hooked on US trade like crack addicts.

TwoPops
 

Canuck

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TwoPops4Sure said:
Why don't you tell us about Canada's Constitution and Charter of Rights. Should the USS sue Canada for plagarism..LOL. You've had a constitution how long now? And are you still a British subject or are you a Canuck as of 1956. Children should be seen and not heard.

You seem to spend a lot of time on these boards throwing out gratuitious insults against Americans. Whereas anyone is welcome to contribute in these forums, I am more than certain that many of us find no use for these types of inflamatory references. These days, the only thing I'm beginning to hate worse than George Bush is a sanctimonious Canadian with a "identity crisis". Having spent a lot of time in Canada, this seems to be endemic in Canucks.

TwoPops
Want to hear about the American indians that still await there just rewards
not a single treaty America is without honor and dont have respect from the world

sly remarks with little to add to the debate but to hang your head in shame and speak in tongues
 
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Canuck

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TwoPops4Sure said:
Fight fire with fire and quite whining like a little baby on this softwood issue. We have been dancing on this for some 20 or 30 years. Canada has a history of protectionalism in many of its industries. Your country and your government is no different than anyone else. You act in your own best interest.

Why not find alternative markets for your lumber? Or if you're really feeling froggy, place trade sanctions on the US in retaliation. And don't let the fact that buy 85+ percent of your exports bother you. I'm sure you'll find some other economy that will readily purchase your output. Nah..you guys are hooked on US trade like crack addicts.

TwoPops
THe international courts say you are to blame open up the doors
wehere is the honor man!
 
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Canuck said:
Want to hear about the American indians that still await there just rewards
not a single treaty America is without honor and dont have respect from the world
And the Native American re-education schools in Canada?

Anyway, I think it's ridiculous that the U.S. preaches free trade, but abandons it at the behest of every politically-connected industry (steel, beef, lumber, etc.).
 

CanadianForPeace

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Originally Posted by Canuck
Want to hear about the American indians that still await there just rewards
not a single treaty America is without honor and dont have respect from the world
It's not like we can talk; America wasn't the only nation to make ignored and unjust treaties with its native peoples.

However, on the topic of NAFTA I do not understand how the American position can be defended. They have appealed the NAFTA ruling on softwood lumber numerous times, and have consistently been found in the wrong. Now they want to "negotiate" on something that they've already lost - it's like the police having to work out an agreement with a prisoner who's already been convicted at various courts of appeal.

Originally Posted by TwoPops4Sure
Why don't you tell us about Canada's Constitution and Charter of Rights. Should the USS sue Canada for plagarism..LOL. You've had a constitution how long now? And are you still a British subject or are you a Canuck as of 1956. Children should be seen and not heard.
Yes, we are an actual independent nation, and have had autonomous control over all aspects of our policy since the end of the First World War. (Prior to that, we had to go to war when Britain did). A Constitution is common to all democratic societies, in one form or another, and was not "invented" by the United States (although the concept of a constitution as a single, comprehensive document may be; those of Britain and Canada are made up of various documents), so no, you can't sue us for copyright violation. There's no need to make such offensive comments, although I understand that Canadians on this board haven't been particularly polite either.

As to the "children should be seen and not heard", compared Britain, France, Spain, Russia, China, Japan, etc., America is an infant. So do you think they should be calling all the shots?

Back on the topic of NAFTA - a serious trade dispute with Canada could be quite a handicap for the United States, given that we sell you a great deal of your energy. Then there's the fact that Alberta's tar sands contain more oil than Saudia Arabia does. Not to be confrontational, but if oil prices continue to rise (and Middle East relations continue to degenerate), you probably don't want to offend us.
 

justcurious

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I'm not quite sure how I feel about the push to eventually attain global free trade... It may help us in the long run, but it will definitely be a long run. I'm not an expert but there seems to be some tension that free trade will encourage exploitation through sweat shop labor and outsourcing. This may well decrease the price of consumer products, but at the cost of exploitation and the loss of jobs in America. We have already seen a steady depletion of the middle class in America over the past few years due, in part, to the conversion of manufacturing jobs to service oriented, low pay jobs without benefits or opportunity for upward mobility. A prime example is the "plastic safety net" of middle class credit card debt. This shows that middle class Americans are struggling to keep up with the spending habits of the wealthy, amongst other struggles of living. Can anyone please give me some statistics that show that liberating trade has helped EVERYONE in America, not just help the rich get richer and the poor get poorer? We are creating a divide amongst us guys.
 

Hornburger

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Well with Free Trade, the manufacturers are able to reap the benefits from how little they have to pay their workers. Free trade also promotes cheaper prices and more product diversity because more products are able to come into the country, and cheaper. The success of the manufacturing companies can make the company use that excess money for expansion, thus creating more jobs. So, although some jobs are outsourced, free trade can also help create more jobs within the economy to balance out the job situation. Besides that, companies can be more successful and and customers pay cheaper and get a better variety.
 

justcurious

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Thats assuming the companies will expand in America, if those companies even expand. Economically speaking, it is more efficient for companies to sell the same quantity of their product for a higher price instead of expanding their business to incur greater wealth. This idea of free trade is idealistic on paper, however, I am concerned that people do not always act as idealistically; especially in politics and business. I think eliminating tariffs through free trade will eliminate what few American businesses we have left. This is very dangerous considering those manufacturing jobs are the prime source of benefits, high wages and upward mobility available to employees.
 

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I don't know, if a company has excess wealth I think it is only sensible that they use that money to make more money. That's what they would do if they are run correctly. But that's only my opinion.
 
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