U.S. Airstrikes- Proportional?

[washunut]

Does the U.S. need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many Muslims it kills as revenge for killing one of it's citizens? We have done about 100 airstrikes and are now looking to do many more in Syria and Iraq.

It seems that many folks seem to think of war as a scorecard these days. If one side kills to many of the other and the score is lopsided, it seems that the U.N., media and even the U.S. government grows very concerned. At what point will this happens if we keep up the attacks due to killing one of our citizens.

 

[USViking]

Does the U.S. need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many Muslims it kills as revenge for killing one of it's citizens? We have done about 100 airstrikes and are now looking to do many more in Syria and Iraq.

It seems that many folks seem to think of war as a scorecard these days. If one side kills to many of the other and the score is lopsided, it seems that the U.N., media and even the U.S. government grows very concerned. At what point will this happens if we keep up the attacks due to killing one of our citizens.

Does washnut need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many 1000s of innocent people ISIS has murdered? If he did he would agree that all of ISIS deserves to die, in revenge.

And revenge is not half of it- ISIS, now the most powerful of all terrorist organizations, is a threat to the international order. They all need to die.

So: two good reasons for wiping ISIS off the face of the Earth.

 

[washunut]

Does washnut need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many 1000s of innocent people ISIS has murdered? If he did he would agree that all of ISIS deserves to die, in revenge.

And revenge is not half of it- ISIS, now the most powerful of all terrorist organizations, is a threat to the international order. They all need to die.

So: two good reasons for wiping ISIS off the face of the Earth.

I am fine with ISIS being wiped off the face of the earth. Just not sure America needs to do it. Syria, with the backing of Iran and Hezbollah will take care of them in Syria. Not sure we need to get involved.

People just assume that bombing folks is a riskless exercise. Those pilots are risking their lives on each trip. Let the areas people who are under threat of this group take care of them.

 

[MMC]

Does the U.S. need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many Muslims it kills as revenge for killing one of it's citizens? We have done about 100 airstrikes and are now looking to do many more in Syria and Iraq.

It seems that many folks seem to think of war as a scorecard these days. If one side kills to many of the other and the score is lopsided, it seems that the U.N., media and even the U.S. government grows very concerned. At what point will this happens if we keep up the attacks due to killing one of our citizens.

Mornin' WN. :2wave: No.....and it isn't just about revenge. Although that does get included as an added extra. No charge.....debt paid in full.

But you do bring up a point about the Media attempting to involve themselves in policy. Currently they have begun the emotional appeal due to the Woman hostage that ISIS has. So expect this to become more touchy feely by the MS Media as they try and get someone to do so something about rescuing the Woman.

 

[HonestJoe]

The US airstrikes in Iraq weren't in response to the killing of an American citizen, they were in response to threats to the safety of Iraqi civilians. I'm pretty sure the airstrikes started before the execution video was released - if anything that was in response to the airstrikes, not the other way around.

 

[washunut]

Mornin' WN. :2wave: No.....and it isn't just about revenge. Although that does get included as an added extra. No charge.....debt paid in full.

But you do bring up a point about the Media attempting to involve themselves in policy. Currently they have begun the emotional appeal due to the Woman hostage that ISIS has. So expect this to become more touchy feely by the MS Media as they try and get someone to do so something about rescuing the Woman.

Morning MMC We need to have a hard headed strategy about this group in my view. If we are bombing them for a strategic purpose fine, if we bomb them because they are nuts who killed someone that is irresponsible.

As I mentioned above, it may look like those pilots are playing a video game. But they risk their lives every time they go into combat. Who knows when one of these groups gets their hands on ground to air weapons.

 

[washunut]

The US airstrikes in Iraq weren't in response to the killing of an American citizen, they were in response to threats to the safety of Iraqi civilians. I'm pretty sure the airstrikes started before the execution video was released - if anything that was in response to the airstrikes, not the other way around.

True, but that problem with the people in the mountains was solved, thanks to American help. We are still bombing though.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Does the U.S. need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many Muslims it kills as revenge for killing one of it's citizens? We have done about 100 airstrikes and are now looking to do many more in Syria and Iraq.

It seems that many folks seem to think of war as a scorecard these days. If one side kills to many of the other and the score is lopsided, it seems that the U.N., media and even the U.S. government grows very concerned. At what point will this happens if we keep up the attacks due to killing one of our citizens.

Well, applying the logic applied to israel, The US has inflicted more casualties than it has taken and we should be pretending that all casualties inflicted by the US are of civilians and should be equally weighted against the US casualty.

As a result, because the US has killed more than it has suffered, the US is guilty of war crimes and should be brought before the International Criminal Court by ISIS. A UN inquiry should be struck to go into Iraq with a mandate to assess the extent of US war crimes and should rely exclusively on ISIS-controlled contacts to compile their report.

Oh, incidentally, the bombings carried out in response to the killing of a US civilian are now the retroactive justification for ISIS killing him.

But don't worry. This approach and these standards only apply to Israel, so the US has nothing to worry about on that front.

 

[washunut]

Well, applying the logic applied to israel, The US has inflicted more casualties than it has taken and we should be pretending that all casualties inflicted by the US are of civilians and should be equally weighted against the US casualty.

As a result, because the US has killed more than it has suffered, the US is guilty of war crimes and should be brought before the International Criminal Court by ISIS. A UN inquiry should be struck to go into Iraq with a mandate to assess the extent of US war crimes and should rely exclusively on ISIS-controlled contacts to compile their report.

Oh, incidentally, the bombings carried out in response to the killing of a US civilian are now the retroactive justification for ISIS killing him.

But don't worry. This approach and these standards only apply to Israel, so the US has nothing to worry about on that front.

Was wondering if we should expect amnesty international to go to Iraq and make sure that America was not committing war crimes.

Do you think the U.S. secretary will fly to the region and ask for a ceasefire?

 

[USViking]

I am fine with ISIS being wiped off the face of the earth.

OK, good.

Just not sure America needs to do it. Syria, with the backing of Iran and Hezbollah will take care of them in Syria. Not sure we need to get involved...Let the areas people who are under threat of this group take care of them.

The sooner the bastards are killed the better, and the US is the most effective killer for any targets operating conventionally and in the open, as ISIS must if it is to pursue its grandiose agenda for a new caliphate.

Also, I am not sure it would be wise to go along with any solution which enhances the power and prestige of Iran and Hezbollah.

Also, there is already too much of a Sunni-Shia divide in this conflict, which would be worsened by a Hezbollah-Iranian incursion.

...People just assume that bombing folks is a riskless exercise. Those pilots are risking their lives on each trip...

I don't believe this belief is widespread, and even if it was it would be irrelevant to the need for taking the risk.

 

[MMC]

Morning MMC We need to have a hard headed strategy about this group in my view. If we are bombing them for a strategic purpose fine, if we bomb them because they are nuts who killed someone that is irresponsible.

As I mentioned above, it may look like those pilots are playing a video game. But they risk their lives every time they go into combat. Who knows when one of these groups gets their hands on ground to air weapons.

Would you consider Terrorists controlling the border crossing into Israel from Syria......and they have Scud missiles already, a couple of good reasons.

Say yes.

 

[washunut]

Would you consider Terrorists controlling the border crossing into Israel from Syria......and they have Scud missiles already, a couple of good reasons.

Say yes.

No. That is already the reality with Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south. The U.S. does not and should not get involved other than allow Israel to purchase weapons to defend itself.

 

[washunut]

OK, good.



The sooner the bastards are killed the better, and the US is the most effective killer for any targets operating conventionally and in the open, as ISIS must if it is to pursue its grandiose agenda for a new caliphate.

Also, I am not sure it would be wise to go along with any solution which enhances the power and prestige of Iran and Hezbollah.

Also, there is already too much of a Sunni-Shia divide in this conflict, which would be worsened by a Hezbollah-Iranian incursion.



I don't believe this belief is widespread, and even if it was it would be irrelevant to the need for taking the risk.

Perhaps I am wrong but I think that this threat is overblown. I think ISIS Will Be wiped out by a combination of Syria and the ****e army and militias in Iraq.

I would let this play out for a while. We always have the option to blowing them to h*** ( which they deserve) if I am proven wrong.

 

[HonestJoe]

True, but that problem with the people in the mountains was solved, thanks to American help. We are still bombing though.

I believe so, but you've done nothing to convince me it's for the reasons you suggest.

 

[MMC]

No. That is already the reality with Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south. The U.S. does not and should not get involved other than allow Israel to purchase weapons to defend itself.

This is different.....they have US artillery, Russian too. US and Russian Tanks. US Stinger Missiles, ManPads, Russian tube launchers, TOWs. They now have plenty of Anti Air defenses. They are also now in control of an Airport.

This is everyones problem....not just the US.

 

[washunut]

This is different.....they have US artillery, Russian too. US and Russian Tanks. US Stinger Missiles, ManPads, Russian tube launchers, TOWs. They now have plenty of Anti Air defenses. They are also now in control of an Airport.

This is everyones problem....not just the US.

I agree, especially with your last sentence. The gulf states have billions of dollars of our best equipment. How about they show some guts and protect their way of life. Saudi will be a target well before we are, except perhaps from a couple of stranglers which is a different problem. The administration wants to conflate the two threats, they are not the same.

Have we seen any indication that they know how to use anti air defenses. I have not heard of our jets being attacked.

 

[MMC]

I agree, especially with your last sentence. The gulf states have billions of dollars of our best equipment. How about they show some guts and protect their way of life. Saudi will be a target well before we are, except perhaps from a couple of stranglers which is a different problem. The administration wants to conflate the two threats, they are not the same.

Have we seen any indication that they know how to use anti air defenses. I have not heard of our jets being attacked.

I believe we do have some validation. Also RDS, The Dem Socialist, and myself have plenty info up on these Terrorists in the War on Terror Forum.


http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-t...ighting-force-us-special-ops-sources-say.html

 

[Ockham]

Does the U.S. need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many Muslims it kills as revenge for killing one of it's citizens?

No.

We have done about 100 airstrikes and are now looking to do many more in Syria and Iraq.

That's about 900 airstrikes too low IMO but maybe there just aren't enough valid targets.

It seems that many folks seem to think of war as a scorecard these days. If one side kills to many of the other and the score is lopsided, it seems that the U.N., media and even the U.S. government grows very concerned. At what point will this happens if we keep up the attacks due to killing one of our citizens.

Those who think the score is lopsided are morons.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Does washnut need to consider proportionality when it comes to how many 1000s of innocent people ISIS has murdered? If he did he would agree that all of ISIS deserves to die, in revenge.

And revenge is not half of it- ISIS, now the most powerful of all terrorist organizations, is a threat to the international order. They all need to die.

So: two good reasons for wiping ISIS off the face of the Earth.

Link?

Murder is a crime only existent with a charge, trial and conviction. Where is the evidence?

Two, whose business is it that there is civil war in Iraq? You left, war erupted as forecast, and all of a sudden, as Obama's numbers tumble, this civil war that has claimed "1000's of lives" is a threat to the existence of US "freedom"? It only happens by coincidence that Obama's numbers are in the toilet on their way to the sewer and that presidents always get a 15% to 30% rise in the polls with any military action.

 

[washunut]

I believe we do have some validation. Also RDS, The Dem Socialist, and myself have plenty info up on these Terrorists in the War on Terror Forum.


http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-t...ighting-force-us-special-ops-sources-say.html

Thanks I have heard and believe that ISIS is relatively well trained for a "JV" terrorist group as Obama calls them. That being said, I might have missed the part of anti aircraft weapons at their disposal.

Also we need to remember that while they have grown it is still a relatively small group when compared against the militias in Iraq, plus the Syrian army, Iranian special forces and Hezbollah. So it might get messy for these groups (could care less) but they can do the job without the U.S.

 

[USViking]

Perhaps I am wrong but I think that this threat is overblown. I think ISIS Will Be wiped out by a combination of Syria and the ****e army and militias in Iraq.

Assad is not going to do better than a stalemate as long as Turkey allows cross-border supply and reinforcement to ISIS.

As for Iraq, I am not sure who you are referring to by Iraqi "militia". Are the Sunni tribal militia doing anything besides sitting on the fence, as they have ever since Fallujah fell months ago? As for the Shia militia they were hanging on for dear life before the US air strikes began, and I wonder if they could even have held Baghdad otherwise. They would certainly have lost that big dam, and would now be facing the threat of a catastrophic flood as the result of ISIS blowing it open.

I would let this play out for a while. We always have the option to blowing them to h*** ( which they deserve) if I am proven wrong.

And I would go ahead and blow them up now before ISIS has any chance of proving you wrong.

 

[MMC]

Thanks I have heard and believe that ISIS is relatively well trained for a "JV" terrorist group as Obama calls them. That being said, I might have missed the part of anti aircraft weapons at their disposal.

Also we need to remember that while they have grown it is still a relatively small group when compared against the militias in Iraq, plus the Syrian army, Iranian special forces and Hezbollah. So it might get messy for these groups (could care less) but they can do the job without the U.S.

This last Military Base they took from Assad was a Major Air Base. Plenty of Anti Air. Especially with the ManPads they have taken. Also now Assad has lost the entire northern third of his Country.

Which he now has lost the pass into Israel thru Golan and they are now 40 miles from Aleppo.

According to the numbers being reported 50k in Syria alone. 30k in Iraq and their Caliphate is growing. It is alleged they now have over 20k Non Syrian Fighters in Syria.

 

[washunut]

This last Military Base they took from Assad was a Major Air Base. Plenty of Anti Air. Especially with the ManPads they have taken. Also now Assad has lost the entire northern third of his Country.

Which he now has lost the pass into Israel thru Golan and they are now 40 miles from Aleppo.

According to the numbers being reported 50k in Syria alone. 30k in Iraq and their Caliphate is growing. It is alleged they now have over 20k Non Syrian Fighters in Syria.

I guess I just can't my head around ISIS defeating not only the Syrian army. But also the Iranian special forces and Hezbollah's army with something like 10K fighters in Syria.How is that possible?

 

[washunut]

Assad is not going to do better than a stalemate as long as Turkey allows cross-border supply and reinforcement to ISIS.

As for Iraq, I am not sure who you are referring to by Iraqi "militia". Are the Sunni tribal militia doing anything besides sitting on the fence, as they have ever since Fallujah fell months ago? As for the Shia militia they were hanging on for dear life before the US air strikes began, and I wonder if they could even have held Baghdad otherwise. They would certainly have lost that big dam, and would now be facing the threat of a catastrophic flood as the result of ISIS blowing it open.




And I would go ahead and blow them up now before ISIS has any chance of proving you wrong.

I think the Sunni militias will fight ISIS if they get assurances from the new government.

 

[USViking]

Link?

This is a ridiculous request since reports of ISIS murders have been all over the news for months.

I know it won't shut you up, but here is a recent report citing UN estimates:

Iraqi civilian death toll passes 5,500 in wake of Isis offensive

Note that the UN report, which does not include ISIS murders in Syria, gives at least 5576 deaths, as in there could be a lot more.

And yes, I see the part about the Iraqi government killing ISIS prisoners (who are not civilians). Good. I hope they kill every one of the bastards they can get their hands on.

Murder is a crime only existent with a charge, trial and conviction.

Incorrect. The term may be applied to any unjustifiable homicide whether legally disposed of or not.

Where is the evidence?

Check with the UN.

Two, whose business is it that there is civil war in Iraq? You left, war erupted as forecast,

ISIS in Iraq constitutes a foreign invasion, which was forecast by no one.

and all of a sudden... this civil war that has claimed "1000's of lives" is a threat to the existence of US "freedom"?...

ISIS if left unchecked will be a permanent, ongoing threat to the peace and security of the entire world.

...as Obama's numbers tumble...It only happens by coincidence that Obama's numbers are in the toilet on their way to the sewer and that presidents always get a 15% to 30% rise in the polls with any military action...

Bullsh*t.