U.S.A The worlds new Super Villan (1 Viewer)

[DeeperSouth]

The whole world has seen the photos of Americans torturing Iraqi prisoners, many of them non-combatants, many of them innocent of any wrongdoing at all. Such treatment of civilians is right out of the horrors of the Third Reich. Even as I type this, supporters of President Bush and the wars are all over the US media trying to justify the use of torture, dismissing concerns over the Geneva Convention, and otherwise creating the impression that Americans support the use of torture against civilians. And, until you get out of that chair and actually do something, the rest of the world has no way to know that you do NOT approve.

It is not that the US objects, for example, to international laws or the Geneva cnoventions. In fact, if any other nation even thought about going round to other countries and seizing people at will, and hauling them off to secret torture camps, you can bet that the US would be the first to condemn such an atrocity, and would aggressively pursue any and all strategies and methods to put a stop to the practice immediately, and bring that rogue nation to heel, quite very possibly including a very swift and most likely unceremonious regime change.

It is almost universally accepted among mainstream Americans that regardless of what Americans may do to the Iraqis and the Afghans, any retaliatory action on the part of Iraqi and Afghan survivors is a classic textbook example of terrorism. What would Americans do if they where invaded (Not that far fetched considering China is willing and able to kick Americas Arse) They would be doing exactly the same as the Iraqis and Afghans, Protecting themselves against and evil and opressive agressor.

America fought against the apparently evil Nazis and Japanese Empire only to take their place as the feared oppressor. In hind sight Nazi rule would have made no difference to Europe (as its now United and most current political policies reflect that of the Nazis, just look at any environmental policy and you'll find the Nazis were there 50 years earlier) and Japan would have only benefited the Pacific (Alot of pacific islands rely on Japan, USA, Australia to fund there entire budgets).

So what did America fight for, What do they fight for now. Glory

 

[ProudAmerican]

well, Its pretty clear that from such an outrageous post and title, you are probably not looking for intelligent debate, but simply an argument or a fight....but I will tackle a few of your points anyway.

The whole world has seen the photos of Americans torturing Iraqi prisoners, many of them non-combatants, many of them innocent of any wrongdoing at all. Such treatment of civilians is right out of the horrors of the Third Reich

while what happened at abu grahab was wrong....to equate it with anything the nazis did is ludicrous. You tell me how many of those prisoners were gassed to death and maybe I will change my mind.

Even as I type this, supporters of President Bush and the wars are all over the US media trying to justify the use of torture

no need to "justify" it. It has the potential to save lives. to expend the live of a single islamic terrorist to save countless lives from an attack is acceptable. the people that need to give "justification" are the people that want us to endanger the lives of innocent Americans in order to provide constitutional rights to a terrorist.

It is almost universally accepted among mainstream Americans that regardless of what Americans may do to the Iraqis and the Afghans, any retaliatory action on the part of Iraqi and Afghan survivors is a classic textbook example of terrorism.

why would Iraqi and Afghani civilians need to "retaliate" ? we arent attacking them. we are there to kill terrorists like those that killed 3000 people on 9-11. it is in the best intrest of the innocent people in those countries to cooperate with us, and help us in the war on terror.

What would Americans do if they where invaded (Not that far fetched considering China is willing and able to kick Americas Arse)

to equate our actions in the ME to an invasion of America by the Chinese shows desperation. What would Chinas reasons be for invading us?

They would be doing exactly the same as the Iraqis and Afghans, Protecting themselves against and evil and opressive agressor.

exactly how are we being evil and agressive towards the average Iraqi citizen on the street?

America fought against the apparently evil Nazis and Japanese Empire only to take their place as the feared oppressor.

exactly how do we compare? are we taking over the ME in order to expand our own empire? or are we trying to root out the real evil. the evil islamic terrorists? we all know what Japans and Germanies ambitions were. and Americas ambitions are nothing of the sort.

So what did America fight for, What do they fight for now. Glory

we fought to prevent you from having to speak German. we fought to prevent the number from being 20, or 30 million, instead of just 6.
we fought because we were attacked on a Sunday, while many were in Church.

we fight today because if we dont, the number could again be 6 million, instead of just 3 thousand.

But I dont expect to make a dent with any of this information. It is clear your mind is already made up.

 

[Jay R]

The whole world has seen the photos of Americans torturing Iraqi prisoners, many of them non-combatants, many of them innocent of any wrongdoing at all. Such treatment of civilians is right out of the horrors of the Third Reich.

The Nazi's wouldn't have wasted their time, they'd have pulled out the gold teeth and moved on to the next victim. And they'd not have bothered with picking and choosing victims, they would have used a blitzkrieg to eliminate all organised armed forces and then set about eliminating the general populace with death squads and extermination camps, Arabs don't fit into Hitler's master race theory. Regardless of the mistakes the US has made in Iraq the situation doesn't even warrant comparison with the Nazi regime and the Holocaust.

Even as I type this, supporters of President Bush and the wars are all over the US media trying to justify the use of torture, dismissing concerns over the Geneva Convention, and otherwise creating the impression that Americans support the use of torture against civilians. And, until you get out of that chair and actually do something, the rest of the world has no way to know that you do NOT approve.

As every Arab jumped up out of his chair to condemn the terrorist attacks on New York, Bali, Madrid, Istanbul and London? The Islamic terrorist does not acknowledge the rules of war regarding uniformed armed forces or the status of civilians or prisoners, and none are signatories to the precious Geneva Convention. A British or American soldier captured by the insurgency would face a far worse ordeal than any resident of Abu Ghraib or Guantanomo Bay.

What would Americans do if they where invaded (Not that far fetched considering China is willing and able to kick Americas Arse) They would be doing exactly the same as the Iraqis and Afghans, Protecting themselves against and evil and opressive agressor.

Able? Maybe, but a conventional engagement between the two would be the bloodiest encounter in human history, plus I might be tempted to repay Europes historic debt to the states, so China would have to deal with me as well.

In hind sight Nazi rule would have made no difference to Europe (as its now United and most current political policies reflect that of the Nazis, just look at any environmental policy and you'll find the Nazis were there 50 years earlier)

Complete and utter s***, I can't believe anyone would make such a ridiculous statment.

and Japan would have only benefited the Pacific (Alot of pacific islands rely on Japan, USA, Australia to fund there entire budgets).

As is ably demonstrated by the rape of Nanking and their attitudes to the POWs, Imperial Japan had no use for the people of the Pacific save for slavery, they'd have taken those islands and slaughtered everyone they encountered.

 

[faithful_servant]

<unremitting blather edited for the sake of the 1,855 letters who were being abused so mercilessly

Is it windy where you are? You know how to check, don't you, just remove your hat and listen for the wooshing sound.

 

[Blue Collar Joe]

That entire post is embarrassing. I truly hope he really isn't from the deep south. If so, it is completely embarrassing to read that drivel.

 

[cherokee]

DeeperSouth
The apparently evil Nazis and Japanese Empire?

You ride the short bus dont you?

 

[ProudAmerican]

You ride the short bus dont you?

I personally think he had to undo the shiney pretty buckles on the lovely white jacket before he could even type.

 

[Blue Collar Joe]

I personally think he had to undo the shiney pretty buckles on the lovely white jacket before he could even type.

I think he may have been drug under the short bus a ways, too.

 

[Zyphlin]

Wow. Ship this drivel to the basement or lower.

The whole world has seen the photos of Americans torturing Iraqi prisoners, many of them non-combatants, many of them innocent of any wrongdoing at all.

Yep, photos of stupid people, doing stupid acts, and then getting punished for it. What an evil country there, unable to control the free will of all its citizens and punishing them for doing something wrong. EVVVVIL. And really...please, tell me how you know that every one of those people in those pictures were 1) Iraqi's and not foriegn insurgents 2) non-combatants 3) completely innocent of any wrong doing. A lot of assumptions you're making there to paint the US as the BIG BAD EVIL DUDEZ!

Such treatment of civilians is right out of the horrors of the Third Reich.

Oh, definitly spot on there. I mean, don't you know about those dozens of gas chambers we have that we throw people in simply for being Iraqi's and just kill them by the millions? I mean, we do that constantly...right?

Even as I type this, supporters of President Bush and the wars are all over the US media trying to justify the use of torture, dismissing concerns over the Geneva Convention, and otherwise creating the impression that Americans support the use of torture against civilians. And, until you get out of that chair and actually do something, the rest of the world has no way to know that you do NOT approve.

Actually, this saddly shows where the Geneva convention doesn't work. The insurgency arn't uniformed combatants of an enemy nation, but are rogue fighters attacking people. Because of that, they're not exactly enemy combatants while at the same time they're not just "civilians" either. And doubly so, i don't recall anyone on the major news media trying to support the torture against civilians, which once again goes to your assumption that every person ever taken is such.

It is not that the US objects, for example, to international laws or the Geneva cnoventions. In fact, if any other nation even thought about going round to other countries and seizing people at will, and hauling them off to secret torture camps, you can bet that the US would be the first to condemn such an atrocity, and would aggressively pursue any and all strategies and methods to put a stop to the practice immediately, and bring that rogue nation to heel, quite very possibly including a very swift and most likely unceremonious regime change.

LOL, you are far to much man. For one, go back to the comments earlier on teh convention. Secondly, Last i checked we're not just rolling around and going "Hey, you...on the street there. COME HERE! Torture camp for you! MWHAHAHAHA". Yes, if some government....say a dictator....randomly started taking many of thier civilians pretty much at random or just cause they pissed him off, and started executing them on mass and maybe even throwing them into mass graves...yeah, i'm sure the U.S. would have a problme with it.

...wait a moment...!

It is almost universally accepted among mainstream Americans that regardless of what Americans may do to the Iraqis and the Afghans, any retaliatory action on the part of Iraqi and Afghan survivors is a classic textbook example of terrorism.

Right. The minority of Iraqi's or Afghans (I havn't even heard of many afghans fighting back save for the few that were part of Al-Qaeda there) fighting back should be the ones that are listened too. I mean, if the grand majority of the country is happily moving onto a new government, happy for the change in things, they are the ones that should obvious be ignored. Its the ones that try to kill them and the americans that should be listened to and drive where the country goes.

What would Americans do if they where invaded (Not that far fetched considering China is willing and able to kick Americas Arse) They would be doing exactly the same as the Iraqis and Afghans, Protecting themselves against and evil and opressive agressor.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. China could possibly hold us to a stalemate if we invaded china due to the numbers...but them "kicking america's arse" in an invasion. That's a hoot. I mean, thanks...i needed a great laugh. And you know, unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm going to guess the great majority of our country would be against China kicking out the government and installing thier version (communism) of government into the land. I know a lot of liberals out there dislike Bush, but I still believe that the majority of them would most likely take him for a fwe more years and the way of American life over Chinese control or direction. So...no...it wouldn't be like Iraq.

America fought against the apparently evil Nazis and Japanese Empire only to take their place as the feared oppressor. In hind sight Nazi rule would have made no difference to Europe (as its now United and most current political policies reflect that of the Nazis, just look at any environmental policy and you'll find the Nazis were there 50 years earlier) and Japan would have only benefited the Pacific (Alot of pacific islands rely on Japan, USA, Australia to fund there entire budgets).
So what did America fight for, What do they fight for now. Glory

WOW! The "apparently" evil Nazis? That just sinched it for me as you being a nutcase. You are seriously comparing all that the U.S. has done since WWII as being WORSE than what would've happened had Germany tooken over?! I'm guessing yo'ure not jewish...right?

You...my sad sad southern neighbor...are a nutjob.



Send this to the basement.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by DeeperSouth
The whole world has seen the photos of Americans torturing Iraqi prisoners, many of them non-combatants, many of them innocent of any wrongdoing at all. Such treatment of civilians is right out of the horrors of the Third Reich. Even as I type this, supporters of President Bush and the wars are all over the US media trying to justify the use of torture, dismissing concerns over the Geneva Convention, and otherwise creating the impression that Americans support the use of torture against civilians. And, until you get out of that chair and actually do something, the rest of the world has no way to know that you do NOT approve.

It is not that the US objects, for example, to international laws or the Geneva cnoventions. In fact, if any other nation even thought about going round to other countries and seizing people at will, and hauling them off to secret torture camps, you can bet that the US would be the first to condemn such an atrocity, and would aggressively pursue any and all strategies and methods to put a stop to the practice immediately, and bring that rogue nation to heel, quite very possibly including a very swift and most likely unceremonious regime change.

It is almost universally accepted among mainstream Americans that regardless of what Americans may do to the Iraqis and the Afghans, any retaliatory action on the part of Iraqi and Afghan survivors is a classic textbook example of terrorism. What would Americans do if they where invaded (Not that far fetched considering China is willing and able to kick Americas Arse) They would be doing exactly the same as the Iraqis and Afghans, Protecting themselves against and evil and opressive agressor.

America fought against the apparently evil Nazis and Japanese Empire only to take their place as the feared oppressor. In hind sight Nazi rule would have made no difference to Europe (as its now United and most current political policies reflect that of the Nazis, just look at any environmental policy and you'll find the Nazis were there 50 years earlier) and Japan would have only benefited the Pacific (Alot of pacific islands rely on Japan, USA, Australia to fund there entire budgets).

So what did America fight for, What do they fight for now. Glory

Galenrox, you send this to the basement than you have truly sold out and made this forum nothing more than Right Wing News. That was a very good post by DS making some very valid observations. Then, because fanatical right wing zealots have to chime in their partisan garbage, you're going to take it out on DS? That's not "right"? But it is more to the "right!"

DS, your first post makes some very good comparison's that are little tough to swallow for the average American. Just look at the emotional reactions that followed it. The responses were from posters that can't even bring themselves to ponder the notion for a milli-second. They turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to any talk of this nature. Which makes me wonder, "What are they afraid of?" They rubber-stamp every single thing we do. And there's not one of them, except possibly Cherokee, that has ever posted anything that could be construed as criticism for the current Administration. To them, we walk on water. And I cannot accept that assessment.

I don't think we are Nazi's, but we are definately heading in that direction!

 

[ProudAmerican]

Galenrox, you send this to the basement than you have truly sold out and made this forum nothing more than Right Wing News. That was a very good post by DS making some very valid observations. Then, because fanatical right wing zealots have to chime in their partisan garbage, you're going to take it out on DS? That's not "right"? But it is more to the "right!"

DS, your first post makes some very good comparison's that are little tough to swallow for the average American. Just look at the emotional reactions that followed it. The responses were from posters that can't even bring themselves to ponder the notion for a milli-second. They turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to any talk of this nature. Which makes me wonder, "What are they afraid of?" They rubber-stamp every single thing we do. And there's not one of them, except possibly Cherokee, that has ever posted anything that could be construed as criticism for the current Administration. To them, we walk on water. And I cannot accept that assessment.

I don't think we are Nazi's, but we are definately heading in that direction!

:boohoo:


get real. when you make "valid observations" at the same time you are comparing AMerica to the nazis.....your so called "valid observations" get lost because your comparisons are idiotic.

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

Galenrox or any other Mod. Please send this down were I can deal with it accordingly.

 

[oldreliable67]

making some very valid observations.

Which of DS's statments do you feel are "very valid"? I see a lot of assumptions, assertions and opinions. I don't see a single statement in there that even remotely qualifies as "valid". Certainly, DS is welcome to his opinions, as are those on the "right", but lets recognize them for what they are: opinions.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

That just sinched it for me as you being a nutcase.
You...my sad sad southern neighbor...are a nutjob.

Moderator's Warning:

This is not debate. A moderator has already made a request that the conversation be returned to the subject of this thread rather than the folks involved in the thread. [It's the post immediately above yours]

Send this to the basement.

Galenrox or any other Mod. Please send this down were I can deal with it accordingly.

Start your own thread in the Basement if you want one there.. Anyone can do it, even you.

 

[Billo_Really]

From the people we are supposed to be helping, a few comments on daily life in Iraq that are strikingly similar to the German occupation of France.

America violates all moral criteria in its war in Iraq
By Dr. Imad Allo Azzaman, June 13, 2006

The reality of the situation shows that the ideological underpinnings of the American war creed are based on the control and exploitation of capital and the building of political regimes that respond to the directives of the new era of globalization.

As a result, we now have a failed country in which murder, bombings, raids and sectarian killings occur on a daily basis and under the glare of the sun.

http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=opinion\2006-06-13\111.htm

I sure would like someone to demonstrate what the difference is between this and the Nazi's.

 

[ProudAmerican]

and Id like to see some facts, rathar than an op ed piece.

 

[Billo_Really]

Right Wing terrorism is not discussed much around here. Just like bad-mouthing the Fuhrer.

Bush's Hypocrisy: Cuban Terrorists
By Robert Parry April 26, 2006

Like an aging rock star singing a beloved oldie, George W. Bush can count on cheers whenever he delivers a favorite line from the Bush Doctrine enunciated after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks: Any country that harbors a terrorist is equally guilty as the terrorist.

Bush got a round of applause at an Indianapolis speech on March 24, 2006, when he declared “one of the lessons learned after September the 11th is that we must hold people to account for harboring terrorists. If you harbor a terrorist, if you feed a terrorist, if you house a terrorist, you’re as equally guilty as the terrorist.”

Similarly, Vice President Dick Cheney roused an American Israel Public Affairs Committee crowd on March 7, 2006, when he declared that “since the day our country was attacked, we have applied the Bush Doctrine: Any person or government that supports, protects, or harbors terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent, and will be held to account.”

But like much else from the post-9/11 period – when frightened Americans put their faith in Bush’s tough talk – this supposedly clear-cut rule applies differently when a Bush ally is implicated in terrorism and the Bushes are the ones doing the harboring.

While the anti-harboring principle is cited when invading Afghanistan and Iraq, the Bush administration continues to turn a blind eye to the presence of right-wing Cuban terrorists living in the United States.

This double standard was underscored again in early April when a Spanish-language Miami television station interviewed notorious Cuban terrorist Orlando Bosch, who offered a detailed justification for the 1976 mid-air bombing of a Cubana Airlines flight that killed 73 people, including the young members of the Cuban national fencing team.

As usual, Bosch refused to admit guilt, but his chilling defense of the bombing – and the strong evidence that has swirled around his role – leave little doubt of his complicity, even as he lives in Miami as a free man.

Another Cuban exile, Luis Posada Carriles, also has been tied to the bombing, but the Bush administration has so far rebuffed Venezuela’s extradition request for him, since he sneaked into the United States in 2005.

Bush Family Ties

But there’s really nothing new about these two terrorists – and other violent right-wing extremists – getting protection from the Bush family.

For three decades, both Bosch and Posada have been under the Bush family’s wing, starting with former President George H.W. Bush (who was CIA director when the airline bombing occurred in 1976) and including Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and President George W. Bush.

The evidence points to one conclusion: the Bushes regard terrorism – defined as killing civilians for a political reason – as justified in cases when their interests match those of the terrorists. Moral clarity against terrorism only applies when the Bush side disagrees with the terrorists.

This hypocrisy often has been aided and abetted by the U.S. news media, which intuitively understands the double standard and largely ignores cases in which the terrorism is connected to U.S. government officials.

The stunning TV interview with Bosch on Miami’s Channel 41 was cited in articles on the Internet by José Pertierra, a lawyer for the Venezuelan government. But Bosch’s comments have received almost no attention from the mainstream U.S. press. [For Pertierra’s story, see Counterpunch, April 11, 2006]

Reporter Juan Manuel Cao interviewed Bosch, who had been jailed for illegally entering the United States but was paroled in 1990 by President George H.W. Bush at the behest of his eldest son Jeb, then an aspiring Florida politician.

“Did you down that plane in 1976?” Cao asked Bosch

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/042606.html

All you people that are so gung-ho fighting terrorism, what do you do when it is the US that is harboring the terrorists? Become more hypocritical? Re-think your political position? Do nothing? What would you do?

 

[ProudAmerican]

cubans took down the twin towers?

say it aint so.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ProudAmerican:
cubans took down the twin towers?

say it aint so.

According to you, everyone took down the twin towers.

 

[ProudAmerican]

According to you, everyone took down the twin towers.

really? id love to see that quote.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ProudAmerican:
and Id like to see some facts, rathar than an op ed piece.

You don't care about facts. So why are you asking for some? Why are you wasting my time? Your mind is already made up, so what's the point? You are heavily entrenched in your hero-worship and have no intention of stopping now. I guess hypocrisy isn't that big a deal in your world.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ProudAmerican:
really? id love to see that quote.

You keep talking about 9/11 and Iraq in the same breath. And the two have nothing to do with each other.

 

[ProudAmerican]

You don't care about facts. So why are you asking for some? Why are you wasting my time? Your mind is already made up, so what's the point? You are heavily entrenched in your hero-worship and have no intention of stopping now. I guess hypocrisy isn't that big a deal in your world.

code for......."sorry, I only have an op ed piece"

 

[ProudAmerican]

You keep talking about 9/11 and Iraq in the same breath. And the two have nothing to do with each other.

I have never once claimed Iraq had anything to do with that attack. just more smokescreeing from the left.

the two have terrorism to do with each other.

we are currently fighting Al Queda in Iraq. Dont look now, but Al Queda commited the 9-11 attacks.

heres where you claim al queda wasnt in iraq before we went there.

and I will concede that, even though we dont know it for a fact. I will say it.

AL QUEDA WASNT IN IRAQ BEFORE AMERICA WENT THERE.

there ya go, hows that?

the fact is, they ARE THERE NOW. and THEY COMMITED 9-11.

if you truly supported Afghanistan, and the war on terror, you would want to kill those bastards.

and beyond that......you still havent shown the quote where I said I think everyone was involved in 9-11

but you did a damn good job of deflecting and turning the debate in another direction.

you are good at making ludicrouse accusations and then weaseling out of them when someone asks you for proof.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ProudAmerican:
I have never once claimed Iraq had anything to do with that attack. just more smokescreeing from the left.

the two have terrorism to do with each other.

we are currently fighting Al Queda in Iraq. Dont look now, but Al Queda commited the 9-11 attacks.

heres where you claim al queda wasnt in iraq before we went there.

and I will concede that, even though we dont know it for a fact. I will say it.

AL QUEDA WASNT IN IRAQ BEFORE AMERICA WENT THERE.

there ya go, hows that?

the fact is, they ARE THERE NOW. and THEY COMMITED 9-11.

if you truly supported Afghanistan, and the war on terror, you would want to kill those bastards.

and beyond that......you still havent shown the quote where I said I think everyone was involved in 9-11

but you did a damn good job of deflecting and turning the debate in another direction.

you are good at making ludicrouse accusations and then weaseling out of them when someone asks you for proof.

I post sources and links with just about every new allegation I make. Yet you call this "weaseling out". It's because you can't get past your own perceptions and prejudices. I have them too. I'm just more conscious of them clouding my judgment.

As for the ones responsible for 9/11, didn't they die in the plane crash?