U.S. - A "Christian Nation?"

[FluffyNinja]

The Muslim Fundamentalists have obviously identified the United States as a "Christian Nation," as we seem to be one of the primary targets of their jihad. However, I would like to pose two questions:

#1 - Was the United States FOUNDED upon Christian principles? With the recent growth of secularization in America, I wonder if we have been "conveniently" ignoring the intentions of our most cherished Founding Fathers? The answer to this will require a closer look at the words of our founders regarding the nation they were creating and why they did what they did.

#2 - Can/Should the United States be identified as a "Christian Nation" today?



My answer to #1 is a definite YES.

My answer to #2 is varied: CAN we call ourselves a "Christian Nation" any longer? - I'm not so sure. Probably not.

SHOULD we identify ourselves as a Christian Nation? - YES, if we want to be on the RIGHT side of every issue. Perhaps many of the political, social and economic problems which are identified daily on this forum, could be avoided if we went back to our Christian roots. Non-believers will point to a statement like this and BLAME many of these same problems on Christianity, but is it coincidence that the more SECULAR our society becomes - the more PROFOUND many of our problems become as well? Just wondering.

 

[FluffyNinja]

I actually thought about it too late, but perhaps I should have posted this as a Poll on the Polls Forum. Maybe someone could take the initiative and start one?

 

[niftydrifty]

I wonder if we have been "conveniently" ignoring the intentions of our most cherished Founding Fathers?

mmmmkay.

The answer to this will require a closer look at the words of our founders regarding the nation they were creating and why they did what they did.

I'm game.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." - Thomas Jefferson

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." - Thomas Paine

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)." - Thomas Paine

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible." - Thomas Paine

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance." - Thomas Paine

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty." - Thomas Paine

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." - James Madison

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." - James Madison

and lastly, I realize that there is controversy surrounding the infamous article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli. but it "says": "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." ... and it was signed by John Adams

doesn't sound to me like they intended what you think.

what is a Deist?

 

[FluffyNinja]

mmmmkay.

I'm game.


doesn't sound to me like they intended what you think.

what is a Deist?

Not so fast Nifty:

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

B]Samuel Adams: “ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

Samuel Adams:“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence " Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

Ben Franklin: “In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Patrick Henry: “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]


Patrick Henry: “The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

 

[niftydrifty]

not so not so fast, Fluffy. let's now focus on observations and actual binding documents.

"They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point." -Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." - The First Amendment

". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." - The Constitution, Article VI, Section 3

(please note that both mentions of "religion" in the Constitution are exclusive, not inclusive)

all references to God in the Declaration of Independence are Deistic.

Mentions of Christianity, God, or Jesus in the Constitution: [...crickets ...]

 

[FluffyNinja]

not so not so fast, Fluffy. let's now focus on observations and actual binding documents.

"They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point." -Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." - The First Amendment

". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." - The Constitution, Article VI, Section 3

(please note that both mentions of "religion" in the Constitution are exclusive, not inclusive)

all references to God in the Declaration of Independence are Deistic.

Mentions of Christianity, God, or Jesus in the Constitution: [...crickets ...]

Well. I don't see how Toqueville's, Democracy in America, qualifies as as "binding" document," but here goes.

First off, let me begin by repeating something which I am certain has been said in this forum before, NO WHERE, not in ONE single PLACE in the United States Constitution, are the words "Separation of Church and State" written. The Constitution is vague, barely 7,000 words in all. That is why I feel that it is IMPERATIVE that we research the motives of the Founders in order to derive their TRUE intentions in the document. The modern secular movement has been using "Separation of Church and State" as a "legal" defense for removing organized prayer from public schools and school sporting events. The ACLU has led the attack to take down the Ten Commandments and religious monuments from public libraries and courthouses - ALL BASED ON AN INTERPRETATION - which may or may not have been the founders TRUE intent. Surely you Nifty, being a researcher, understand the importance of finding the COMPLETE truth behind our Founding Fathers' intentions?

And I'm sure that you know enough of the context in which the Bill of Rights was added to understand that the "Establishmment Clause" was added as a result of the Anglican Church's domination of England. Remember, all of these men were English the day before the Declaration was signed! They knew, firsthand, the danger of establishing a "National Church." But Christianity encompasses many different "Churches" and denominations.

Here are a few "binding" documents:
Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration: • "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 “Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”

The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)

 

[niftydrifty]

Well. I don't see how Toqueville's, Democracy in America, qualifies as as "binding" document," but here goes.

I said it was an observation. while you intend to search the assumed motivations of the founders, a few centuries out, some of them hadn't been dead very long when that quote was written.

First off, let me begin by repeating something which I am certain has been said in this forum before, NO WHERE, not in ONE single PLACE in the United States Constitution, are the words "Separation of Church and State" written.

It didn't have to be written. the constitution is an explanation of the state. and nowhere in that explanation of the state, does the word "church" appear. that's your separation right there. if the Christian nation would have been intended, it woulda appeared in the rules. it doesn't. end of story.

The Constitution is vague, barely 7,000 words in all.

actually, the Constitution is quite clear on the subject of religion. zero, gone, zilch, nada, ... it's all quite clear. it was left out, intentionally.

That is why I feel that it is IMPERATIVE that we research the motives of the Founders in order to derive their TRUE intentions in the document.

ok, what did they say about it, that contradicts this:

"...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

The modern secular movement has been using "Separation of Church and State" as a "legal" defense for removing organized prayer from public schools and school sporting events. The ACLU has led the attack to take down the Ten Commandments and religious monuments from public libraries and courthouses - ALL BASED ON AN INTERPRETATION - which may or may not have been the founders TRUE intent. Surely you Nifty, being a researcher, understand the importance of finding the COMPLETE truth behind our Founding Fathers' intentions?

is there any difference between the "modern" secular movement, and the intent of the founders? they're actually one and the same.

And I'm sure that you know enough of the context in which the Bill of Rights was added to understand that the "Establishmment Clause" was added as a reult of the Anglican Church's domination of England. Remember, all of these men were English, the day before the Declaration was signed! They knew, firsthand the danger of establishing a "National Church." But Christianity encompasses many different "Churches" and denominations.

true, but as I've already demonstrated, several of the key founders had no use for Christianity. they were not of one mind. but most of all, they valued their freedoms so (religious freedoms included) that they realised the danger of theocracy. so they established a secular government.

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration: • "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

the constitution of Delaware? the colony? was it signed by any of the founding fathers? why do you think the later Constitutional congress avoided this debacle?

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 “Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”

did you really have to go back 156 years in order to find mention of God in an official document? this really has nothing to do with the founding fathers or the Constitution.

The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)

words used by people 180-something years before the Constitution was ratified are conspicuously left out of the Constitution.

why?

oh yeah...

"...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

... my research has uncovered the motivations and intent you are looking for, signed by someone that was there, not someone that lived in a colony well over a hundred years for the US was founded.

 

[new coup for you]

The roots of England as we know it was sown by Roman pagans. Has England forgotten it's foundation by establishing a Christian national religion?

Things change. The founders owned slaves and didn't let women vote. Their views are irrelevant.

 

[FluffyNinja]

It didn't have to be written. the constitution is an explanation of the state. and nowhere in that explanation of the state, does the word "church" appear. that's your separation right there. if the Christian nation would have been intended, it woulda appeared in the rules. it doesn't. end of story.

You, yourself, in the next quote say that the Constitution is "quite clear." It "doesn't have to be written" but it's "clear on this subject" - I don't get it? So which is it....vague or clear?

actually, the Constitution is quite clear on the subject of religion. zero, gone, zilch, nada, ... it's all quite clear. it was left out, intentionally.

How can you say it was INTENTIONAL? I've provided just as many quotes from the same Founding Fathers which says otherwise and can provide many more - my quotes are cited, by the way.:mrgreen:

"...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

Who said this and when? John Adams? The Treaty of Tripoli? Come on, this is reaaalllllly stretching it.:roll:

is there any difference between the "modern" secular movement, and the intent of the founders? they're actually one and the same.

Uhh, yeah, there is. Let's just imagine we could go back in time and tell George Washington, while he was President, that all mention of God would have to be removed from public places. I'm sure that idea would have gotten a warm reception.
George Washington:
Farewell Address: "The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

true, but as I've already demonstrated, several of the key founders had no use for Christianity. they were not of one mind. but most of all, they valued their freedoms so (religious freedoms included) that they realised the danger of theocracy. so they established a secular government.

Yes, but again, we must look at the historical context - life under Anglican domination. Have you considered that it was their intent to practice "Christianity" freely, in any denomination that they chose? Are you denying the legitimacy of my earlier quotes? You posted quotes from FOUR Founding Fathers - I posted quotes from SEVEN and can provide a plethura more - this is an area that I have researched quite a bit - my Master's Thesis was somewhat tied to this subject.

the constitution of Delaware? the colony? was it signed by any of the founding fathers? why do you think the later Constitutional congress avoided this debacle?

Delaware was not part of the United States? You asked for "binding documents" - well to the citizens of Delaware, I'd say this was pretty "binding."

did you really have to go back 156 years in order to find mention of God in an official document? this really has nothing to do with the founding fathers or the Constitution.

The "FOUNDING" of our nation began much earlier than 1789. It began with the first colonists and the political, moral, social, and religious practices they brought with them. This is what would shape the "America" that Hamilton, Madison, Adams, Jay, Henry, Franklin and Washington knew.

words used by people 180-something years before the Constitution was ratified are conspicuously left out of the Constitution.

Again, see the above response.

why?

because they were intelligent men who knew that getting the Constitution ratified would be a "balancing act." And that any reference to Federal "Supremecy," whether through Political power, Economic power or through religious influence, would spell disaster for the new government. Why do you think the Power to "Lay and collect taxes" was originally left out - of the Articles of Confederation? (Different subject - same principle)

 

[FluffyNinja]

The roots of England as we know it was sown by Roman pagans. Has England forgotten it's foundation by establishing a Christian national religion?

Things change. The founders owned slaves and didn't let women vote. Their views are irrelevant.

THEIR "views" were translated into the United States Constitution. The Constitution is irrelevant? :roll:

Some Muslim Nations still practice a "form" of slavery and most don't allow women to vote. Maybe they should be considered "irrelevant" also. If this is the case, why are so many people raising Cain over Iran and Iraq?:doh

 

[new coup for you]

The Constitution is a document we continue to ratify through our political system. It is relevant.

Anything outside of the Constitution, reguardless of how strongly the founders felt about it, is utterly irrelevant.

Benjamin Franklin loved to **** old chicks. Just loved it. Was famous for it. Should we all **** old chicks? Hardly.

Law is important.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Benjamin Franklin loved to **** old chicks. Just loved it. Was famous for it. Should we all **** old chicks? Hardly.

Law is important.

Bill Clinton likes to boff young chicks. Should we let him back in the Whitehouse? Hardly.:mrgreen:

 

[new coup for you]

Do conservatives have the tendency to insult Clinton when cornered hardwired into their brains?

 

[FluffyNinja]

Do conservatives have the tendency to insult Clinton when cornered hardwired into their brains?

I was simply responding to your witless comments about Franklin's sex life. What in the world does that have to do with the Founding Fathers' intent concerning religion?

 

[new coup for you]

It shows their personal lives don't matter when we construct our law. And that's what their religous views were. Their personal lives.

 

[FluffyNinja]

The Constitution is a document we continue to ratify through our political system. It is relevant.

Anything outside of the Constitution, reguardless of how strongly the founders felt about it, is utterly irrelevant.

Benjamin Franklin loved to **** old chicks. Just loved it. Was famous for it. Should we all **** old chicks? Hardly.

Law is important.

I'm not sure about your use of the word "ratify" here? Perhaps you meant to say "amend." If that's the case, then I would agree with you on that part. However; to say that the document is relevant but the opinions of the author are not is, well, borderline absurd. That would be like reading "Star Wars" (the original - I'm a Star Wars freak) and saying that George Lucas' intent/views concerning the story are irrelevant - the only thing relevant is how WE interpret it. I don't buy it.

 

[new coup for you]

The opinions that mattered for our government are in the document, the other ones are not.

 

[Kali]

It is simple: this country was not founded on any one religion but was founded on freedom of and FROM religion.

 

[FluffyNinja]

It is simple: this country was not founded on any one religion .....

Prove it. The evidence states otherwise - from the words of the Founders themselves. Let's see how many "other" religions (not based in Christianity) you can find evidence of in the history of the Founding Fathers and the creation of the United States. And before you start, the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment is NOT proof that our nation wasn't founded on Christian Principles - it simply proves the Founders were smart men who added the words they needed to to insure the Constituion would be ratified under the conditions, WITHOUT excluding ANY specific religion. Take this into consideration as well; how many OTHER religions (not based in Christianity) were TRULY represented in the U.S. in 1798?

 

[new coup for you]

If our nation was founded in Christianity the Constitution would say so. It's the legal document upon which our laws are founded.

 

[Kali]

Prove it. The evidence states otherwise - from the words of the Founders themselves. Let's see how many "other" religions (not based in Christianity) you can find evidence of in the history of the Founding Fathers and the creation of the United States. And before you start, the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment is NOT proof that our nation wasn't founded on Christian Principles - it simply proves the Founders were smart men who added the words they needed to to insure the Constituion would be ratified under the conditions, WITHOUT excluding ANY specific religion. Take this into consideration as well; how many OTHER religions (not based in Christianity) were TRULY represented in the U.S. in 1798?

Just take a look at the Federalist Papers!

 

[FluffyNinja]

If our nation was founded in Christianity the Constitution would say so. It's the legal document upon which our laws are founded.

This is the point, isn't it. The Constitution DOES NOT say that our nation is "FOUNDED" upon anything. Does it say America is "founded upon Democracy?" No. Does that mean it's not? Does the Constitution say that the U.S. would be "founded upon a capitalistic economy?" No. Would you argue that our nation is not founded upon capitalistic principles just because it's not explicitly stated?

The point is - the Constitution doesn't explicitly "say" a lot of things, and that is why it is important to study the history behind it - and that includes the beliefs, attitudes and views of those who helped to frame it. How is it acceptable to change something before we fully understand what its intent was in the fisrst place.

 

[new coup for you]

sounds like you're an activist judge liberal

 

[Kali]

This is the point, isn't it. The Constitution DOES NOT say that our nation is "FOUNDED" upon anything. Does it say America is "founded upon Democracy?" No. Does that mean it's not? Does the Constitution say that the U.S. would be "founded upon a capitalistic economy?" No. Would you argue that our nation is not founded upon capitalistic principles just because it's not explicitly stated?

The point is - the Constitution doesn't explicitly "say" a lot of things, and that is why it is important to study the history behind it - and that includes the beliefs, attitudes and views of those who helped to frame it. How is it acceptable to change something before we fully understand what its intent was in the fisrst place.

It does not say we are a Democracy because contrary to what people wish to think? We are not a Democracy? We are a republic!

 

[FluffyNinja]

sounds like you're an activist judge liberal

I assume this is a feeble attempt at sarcasm. An Activist Liberal Judge would want to change interpretations of the law "on a whim." I, on the other hand only seek the truth. A true Liberal shies away from the past and tradition and only seeks change to fit the current state of affairs. My opinions, if anything are quite "Traditionalist.":mrgreen: