Two Things on the Trump Presidency

jet57 · Feb 4, 2017

code1211 said:
In Rand's book, the gifted abandon society and set up a Utopian little society apart from the greater society they have left. However, their goal is not to bring down society. That would very likely be the result, but not their intent. Their motivations seem to be without greed or malice. They seek only their own, personal happiness. Galt is one who has watched the genius creators of the world tortured and abused by the industrialists and governmental types and noted the unhappiness that results for the genius creators as a result.

You seem to see that as well. Your conclusion is that the torture and abuse is both justified and noble. You disagree with Rand in this. With me as well.

You seem to be in possession of the knowledge that men are intrinsically different from one another. You have chosen to use the Nazi-reminiscent word "Übermensch". I don't recall that word being used in "Atlas Shrugged". Could you link to the passage in which it appears?

Putting that aside, Rand is pretty clear that people are controlled by others not so much through the strength of the controllers as through the weakness of the controlled. This is evident in all of the characterizations of control throughout the novel.

The real battle in this book is not about the struggle of the individual against the society as you seem to be saying, but rather about the individual against his or her own fears.

Does the industrialist need to control his business segment to be happy or only need to see his revolutionizing, better steel come to existence?

Does the architect need to be revered by his peers or only build the best structures in the most efficient way?

Can the individual chose honesty in revealing her inner thoughts and actual actions or must she hide the reviled to avoid being shamed by society?

Inner strength and happiness vs. the accolades of society. We all make these choices daily in much smaller ways than Rearden, Galt or the Taggerts.

Can a person be happy in accomplishment without recognition? Can a person be happy in recognition absent accomplishment?

Sadly, our society seems to revere those who are recognized for little. We seem to love the heat and don't much care about the light. Wesley Mouch would be happy in our world today. He would undoubtedly work for the Democrat National Committee.

The “gifted” go on strike: a collectivist concept that only works en masse. That is a huge contradiction built into Rand’s story first of all; and I have never suggested that it was done in order to damage society. Rand is trying to make a point, that social and economic growth will become stagnant without the free flow of unimpeded ideas and personal growth. And again, the trouble with that concept, on a social level, is that in reality, it cannot operate as a singularity. Even as a utopia, the ideas and the “gifted” are stagnant in and of themselves without “second hands” to carry them out.

As for the Übermensch, Fredrick Nietzsche died in 1900; long before WWI OR Hitler. It was his sister Elizabeth who introduced the idea to regime as she felt that the concept fit the pure Aryan as an ideal.

The “overman” was Nietzsche’s idea of the man who rose above all restrictions and guilt through religion to introduce man in his true nature: that’s about as succinctly as I can put it. Thus the Übermensch has nothing whatsoever to do with the third Reich OR the Aryan.

The Übermensch is a philosophical man who is outside of social constraints, thus the combined characters of Rearden, Galt and Dagney Taggart, as uber capitalists who defy social relaities in order to prove a point. That behavior, and “you’re fired”, coupled with Trump’s ego define the self- realized capitalist Übermensch which is Atlas Shrugged.

And the weakness of the controlled is a good point and it serves meat to the wolves who are the controllers. Having said that however, “the controlled” are a great part of civil society through human history, and Rand’s ideal of the capitalist utopia of the United States is not an exception to that rule. The difference is, only in the US can the capitalist consider him or herself as the Übermensch, with the socially permissive means to realize that. Yet it is vital to remember, as reality dictates that seeing yourself as an overman and expecting others to treat you like one are two completely different realities, that latter of which borders on delusion and feudalism. Rand’s book is fine as an ideal, but delusional as a reality: a social system simply cannot afford it and the Third Reich AND Rome bear that out very clearly.

End part 1

jet57 · Feb 4, 2017

code1211 said:
In Rand's book, the gifted abandon society and set up a Utopian little society apart from the greater society they have left. However, their goal is not to bring down society. That would very likely be the result, but not their intent. Their motivations seem to be without greed or malice. They seek only their own, personal happiness. Galt is one who has watched the genius creators of the world tortured and abused by the industrialists and governmental types and noted the unhappiness that results for the genius creators as a result.

You seem to see that as well. Your conclusion is that the torture and abuse is both justified and noble. You disagree with Rand in this. With me as well.

You seem to be in possession of the knowledge that men are intrinsically different from one another. You have chosen to use the Nazi-reminiscent word "Übermensch". I don't recall that word being used in "Atlas Shrugged". Could you link to the passage in which it appears?

Putting that aside, Rand is pretty clear that people are controlled by others not so much through the strength of the controllers as through the weakness of the controlled. This is evident in all of the characterizations of control throughout the novel.

The real battle in this book is not about the struggle of the individual against the society as you seem to be saying, but rather about the individual against his or her own fears.

Does the industrialist need to control his business segment to be happy or only need to see his revolutionizing, better steel come to existence?

Does the architect need to be revered by his peers or only build the best structures in the most efficient way?

Can the individual chose honesty in revealing her inner thoughts and actual actions or must she hide the reviled to avoid being shamed by society?

Inner strength and happiness vs. the accolades of society. We all make these choices daily in much smaller ways than Rearden, Galt or the Taggerts.

Can a person be happy in accomplishment without recognition? Can a person be happy in recognition absent accomplishment?

Sadly, our society seems to revere those who are recognized for little. We seem to love the heat and don't much care about the light. Wesley Mouch would be happy in our world today. He would undoubtedly work for the Democrat National Committee.

Now fears, once again, are socially inculcated as a measuring device of acceptance from infanthood. Thus are the values of good and evil predicated strictly social perception. THIS is why Rand, her objectivism and her book Atlas Shrugged are almost universally looked down upon in this country, not as a story, but as a possible way of government reactionary solutions, and those reactionary solutions are what is putting Trump in a box as we speak.

Now,

Does the industrialist need to control his business segment to be happy or only need to see his revolutionizing, better steel come to existence?

Does the architect need to be revered by his peers or only build the best structures in the most efficient way?

Can the individual chose honesty in revealing her inner thoughts and actual actions or must she hide the reviled to avoid being shamed by society?

Those are questions you should be asking of Donald Trump: he has a need of both in order to be happy.

Neither of those three, need the accolades of society, but the do need the second hands in order for their great ideas to come to fruition, and those second hands belong to a social structure, anywhere in the world, that is going to place demands on that fruition; which is where you would enter in the strike of ideas, however in any household there is more than one mouth to feed and that is just plain reality: no man is an island.

Men and women are happy every day without the accolades of accomplishment; those accolades only come as a result of an uberidea… that benefits the whole.

bluesmoke · Feb 4, 2017

code1211 said:
Can you link to trump ever having compared himself to John Galt?

Trump seems to be opposite to John Galt in almost every way.

I agree. I don't think Trump knows anything about AS. I do think one can assign Trump to that role, but like a benevolent dictator. One who act's as though he's doing everybody so well, but is doing quite the opposite. The flim-flam man. Right here in River City. He believes in his own BS.

jet57 · Feb 4, 2017

bluesmoke said:
I agree. I don't think Trump knows anything about AS. I do think one can assign Trump to that role, but like a benevolent dictator. One who act's as though he's doing everybody so well, but is doing quite the opposite. The flim-flam man. Right here in River City. He believes in his own BS.

"The Flim Flam Man"; excellent label for him. Now what he's gonna do is let the air out his tires and ride on everybody else's tracks.

code1211 · Feb 11, 2017

jet57 said:
The “gifted” go on strike: a collectivist concept that only works en masse. That is a huge contradiction built into Rand’s story first of all; and I have never suggested that it was done in order to damage society. Rand is trying to make a point, that social and economic growth will become stagnant without the free flow of unimpeded ideas and personal growth. And again, the trouble with that concept, on a social level, is that in reality, it cannot operate as a singularity. Even as a utopia, the ideas and the “gifted” are stagnant in and of themselves without “second hands” to carry them out.

As for the Übermensch, Fredrick Nietzsche died in 1900; long before WWI OR Hitler. It was his sister Elizabeth who introduced the idea to regime as she felt that the concept fit the pure Aryan as an ideal.

The “overman” was Nietzsche’s idea of the man who rose above all restrictions and guilt through religion to introduce man in his true nature: that’s about as succinctly as I can put it. Thus the Übermensch has nothing whatsoever to do with the third Reich OR the Aryan.

The Übermensch is a philosophical man who is outside of social constraints, thus the combined characters of Rearden, Galt and Dagney Taggart, as uber capitalists who defy social relaities in order to prove a point. That behavior, and “you’re fired”, coupled with Trump’s ego define the self- realized capitalist Übermensch which is Atlas Shrugged.

And the weakness of the controlled is a good point and it serves meat to the wolves who are the controllers. Having said that however, “the controlled” are a great part of civil society through human history, and Rand’s ideal of the capitalist utopia of the United States is not an exception to that rule. The difference is, only in the US can the capitalist consider him or herself as the Übermensch, with the socially permissive means to realize that. Yet it is vital to remember, as reality dictates that seeing yourself as an overman and expecting others to treat you like one are two completely different realities, that latter of which borders on delusion and feudalism. Rand’s book is fine as an ideal, but delusional as a reality: a social system simply cannot afford it and the Third Reich AND Rome bear that out very clearly.

End part 1

The Third Reich and Rome are studies in contrasts, particularly in duration. Rome, including the predecessor Etruscans lasted for about a millennium. Rome was a pretty good success having left examples of architecture, art, language and culture all over Europe.

They morphed, as some think we are morphing, from a republic into a dictatorship, but the duration o0f their success is not really challengeable. The Nazis? Not so much.

The US has several centuries to go before it can reach the maturity of the Romans.

The term Übermensch, like most word that describe the Third Reich existed before they were applied to the thinking of that group. Holocaust is another. For me both conjure images of the Nazi regime. Neither have definitions exclusive the Nazis, but both were so intrinsic to their thinking and actions that they are hard to separate. Are you unaware of the implications possible in the use of that word?

You say that you never made the claim that the gifted in the book went on strike to bring down society. In your first post to which I responded, I highlighted and bolded in RED that exact claim.

In passing, your post is absolutely excellently written and instructive. It was my pleasure to read it!

code1211 · Feb 11, 2017

jet57 said:
Now fears, once again, are socially inculcated as a measuring device of acceptance from infanthood. Thus are the values of good and evil predicated strictly social perception. THIS is why Rand, her objectivism and her book Atlas Shrugged are almost universally looked down upon in this country, not as a story, but as a possible way of government reactionary solutions, and those reactionary solutions are what is putting Trump in a box as we speak.

Now,

Those are questions you should be asking of Donald Trump: he has a need of both in order to be happy.

Neither of those three, need the accolades of society, but the do need the second hands in order for their great ideas to come to fruition, and those second hands belong to a social structure, anywhere in the world, that is going to place demands on that fruition; which is where you would enter in the strike of ideas, however in any household there is more than one mouth to feed and that is just plain reality: no man is an island.

Men and women are happy every day without the accolades of accomplishment; those accolades only come as a result of an uberidea… that benefits the whole.

"The Whole" is a pretty malleable term. If you are talking about what makes most people happy, my personal feeling is that their happiness comes from a "Whole" that is not so much related to the overall society as it is related to the state of affairs in their little, immediate world. Atlas Shrugged deals with personal happiness as it is impacted by the forces of society. She doesn't seem to view society, the mob, very kindly.

It's obvious that in the real world "the mob" can be whipped into action based on thoughtless passion in almost every news report on the national outlets. In this, she seems very accurate. This is an indictment of society, though, not Rand.

Donald Trump is obviously a guy who loves to test the limits. As with any other very high achieving, competitive and successful person, he attacks his challenges in order to find what he has defined as success. As far as I can tell, he wins more than he loses.

He's very rich. His employees seem to be very loyal. He has a wonderful family. He has had a few very successful careers that all depended on his salesmanship and ability to win.

He seems to have joined a contest in which he is fighting with people who buy printing ink by the barrel. He is not so much a student of Mark Twain as a real life life Tom Sawyer come to life. Does Trump need to have accolades or real power to be happy? I'd guess it's both. Tom could not have made others paint the fence without his skills, but getting the fence whitwashed and controlling others were two separate goals that just happened to come together for him at the fence.

The gifted and the rest of us exist symbiotically in society. We need them more than they need us, though. In truth, without the great problems created by those of us who are your "second hands" the gifted would really have almost nothing to correct. If the fence did not need whitewash, Tom would not have needed "second hands". In any event, though, the fence got whitewashed, Tom had his fun and the others felt a sense of accomplishment.

End part 1.

code1211 · Feb 11, 2017

jet57 said:
Now fears, once again, are socially inculcated as a measuring device of acceptance from infanthood. Thus are the values of good and evil predicated strictly social perception. THIS is why Rand, her objectivism and her book Atlas Shrugged are almost universally looked down upon in this country, not as a story, but as a possible way of government reactionary solutions, and those reactionary solutions are what is putting Trump in a box as we speak.

Now,

Those are questions you should be asking of Donald Trump: he has a need of both in order to be happy.

Neither of those three, need the accolades of society, but the do need the second hands in order for their great ideas to come to fruition, and those second hands belong to a social structure, anywhere in the world, that is going to place demands on that fruition; which is where you would enter in the strike of ideas, however in any household there is more than one mouth to feed and that is just plain reality: no man is an island.

Men and women are happy every day without the accolades of accomplishment; those accolades only come as a result of an uberidea… that benefits the whole.

Part 2:

Sorry about the length.

Now to Inner Strength vs. Public Accolades. Anyone who was created by public accolades is vulnerable to the withdrawal of those accolades. Some, like Trump, are pretty shrewd. In politics, the ultimate public accolade game, you must have those to advance. Trump seems to have been formulating his political persona for decades. I think I heard that he patented or copyrighted "Make America Great Again" years before he descended the escalator at Trump Tower to announce his candidacy.

Our media has been manufacturing and then destroying personalities as a stock in trade. They seem to think they can do this with Trump, but he was not their creation. They were literally his reporters and HE USED THEM. It's interesting that they reported on him and he gained popularity. Now they are reporting only on their own biases and bigotry and those that derive hope from Trump just don't hear their intended message. They only hear the media and intelligencia elites' hate and bile reprocessed daily.

Recent polls show that Trump is more popular and trusted than the media. Neither Trump nor the media is particularly highly trusted, but he is a politician and they are SUPPOSED TO BE the arbiters of honesty, truth and information. However, they deal routinely in half truth, innuendo and outright lies to attack him. Their only currency is public trust and they squandered all they ever had decades ago.

On this particular sliver of the pie, those that buy printing ink by the barrel have lost. It's about time!

Interestingly, Trump's Executive order stay was upheld by the Ninth Court of Appeals. As a result of this decision, it comes to light that northwards of 80% of the time, their rulings are reversed by higher courts. They have been called the Ninth Circus for years by those who care about these things. Now everyone knows about their lack of competence. Who wins?

code1211 · Feb 11, 2017

bluesmoke said:
I agree. I don't think Trump knows anything about AS. I do think one can assign Trump to that role, but like a benevolent dictator. One who act's as though he's doing everybody so well, but is doing quite the opposite. The flim-flam man. Right here in River City. He believes in his own BS.

You seem to be accurately describing Barrack Obama.

Two Things on the Trump Presidency

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