Twelve-step programs, at least for me, are a bunch of hooey.

[JacksinPA]

Understanding 12 Steps Of AA | PA | Silver Pines Treatment Center

The 12 steps of AA can be confusing, especially if you've never attended a meeting. Learn more about these steps and how they can help you get sober, call Silver Pines Treatment Center at 267.719.8689.

silverpinestreatmentcenter.com

If you've ever been to an AA or similar substance abuse rehab program, you may understand why I consider them to be a bunch of hooey. These, and the 'Book', were creations of a guy who used the resulting money to support his mistress.

It all starts as the meeting comes to order. You raise your hand & ask the moderator if non-Christians are welcome in this group. He answers 'Yes they are.' But after the meeting concludes everyone in the room, stands, joins hands & recites the Lord's Prayer, which makes you either a hypocrite or a liar unless you really believe in this stuff.

If the prayer doesn't get your goat, their 12-point path back to sobriety will knock your socks off:

1. Admitting powerlessness over the addiction
2. Believing that a higher power (in whatever form) can help
3. Deciding to turn control over to the higher power
4. Taking a personal inventory
5. Admitting to the higher power, oneself, and another person the wrongs done
6. Being ready to have the higher power correct any shortcomings in one’s character
7. Asking the higher power to remove those shortcomings
8. Making a list of wrongs done to others and being willing to make amends for those wrongs
9. Contacting those who have been hurt, unless doing so would harm the person
10. Continuing to take personal inventory and admitting when one is wrong
11. Seeking enlightenment and connection with the higher power via prayer and meditation
12. Carrying the message of the 12 Steps to others in need

Reference Step 1, go see a good psychiatrist.

Step 2, believe in the unknowable.

Step 3, see Step 2.

Step 4 OK

Step 5, the higher power I dealt with in Step 2. Go back to Step 2.

Step 6, see Step 2.

Step7, see Step2.

Step 8, Why?

Step 9, Step 9, I'll wait for those who have wronged me to apologize first.

Step 10. OK

Step 11, See Step 2

Step 12, OK if you skip the religious stuff.

 

[soylentgreen]

Step 8 you really ask why? Are you that alone that your drinking problem effected no one else?

 

[dmpi]

The 12-step program is for people that recognize their problem and actually want to quit.

 

[Crakhobarbie]

Understanding 12 Steps Of AA | PA | Silver Pines Treatment Center

The 12 steps of AA can be confusing, especially if you've never attended a meeting. Learn more about these steps and how they can help you get sober, call Silver Pines Treatment Center at 267.719.8689.

silverpinestreatmentcenter.com

If you've ever been to an AA or similar substance abuse rehab program, you may understand why I consider them to be a bunch of hooey. These, and the 'Book', were creations of a guy who used the resulting money to support his mistress.

It all starts as the meeting comes to order. You raise your hand & ask the moderator if non-Christians are welcome in this group. He answers 'Yes they are.' But after the meeting concludes everyone in the room, stands, joins hands & recites the Lord's Prayer, which makes you either a hypocrite or a liar unless you really believe in this stuff.

If the prayer doesn't get your goat, their 12-point path back to sobriety will knock your socks off:

1. Admitting powerlessness over the addiction
2. Believing that a higher power (in whatever form) can help
3. Deciding to turn control over to the higher power
4. Taking a personal inventory
5. Admitting to the higher power, oneself, and another person the wrongs done
6. Being ready to have the higher power correct any shortcomings in one’s character
7. Asking the higher power to remove those shortcomings
8. Making a list of wrongs done to others and being willing to make amends for those wrongs
9. Contacting those who have been hurt, unless doing so would harm the person
10. Continuing to take personal inventory and admitting when one is wrong
11. Seeking enlightenment and connection with the higher power via prayer and meditation
12. Carrying the message of the 12 Steps to others in need

Reference Step 1, go see a good psychiatrist.

Step 2, believe in the unknowable.

Step 3, see Step 2.

Step 4 OK

Step 5, the higher power I dealt with in Step 2. Go back to Step 2.

Step 6, see Step 2.

Step7, see Step2.

Step 8, Why?

Step 9, Step 9, I'll wait for those who have wronged me to apologize first.

Step 10. OK

Step 11, See Step 2

Step 12, OK if you skip the religious stuff.

Well, AA or NA or whatever.... Your not going to quit untill you make the changes and decide to quit. And from the sound of it, your just not ready.

 

[John3945]

Understanding 12 Steps Of AA | PA | Silver Pines Treatment Center

The 12 steps of AA can be confusing, especially if you've never attended a meeting. Learn more about these steps and how they can help you get sober, call Silver Pines Treatment Center at 267.719.8689.

silverpinestreatmentcenter.com

If you've ever been to an AA or similar substance abuse rehab program, you may understand why I consider them to be a bunch of hooey. These, and the 'Book', were creations of a guy who used the resulting money to support his mistress.

It all starts as the meeting comes to order. You raise your hand & ask the moderator if non-Christians are welcome in this group. He answers 'Yes they are.' But after the meeting concludes everyone in the room, stands, joins hands & recites the Lord's Prayer, which makes you either a hypocrite or a liar unless you really believe in this stuff.

If the prayer doesn't get your goat, their 12-point path back to sobriety will knock your socks off:

1. Admitting powerlessness over the addiction
2. Believing that a higher power (in whatever form) can help
3. Deciding to turn control over to the higher power
4. Taking a personal inventory
5. Admitting to the higher power, oneself, and another person the wrongs done
6. Being ready to have the higher power correct any shortcomings in one’s character
7. Asking the higher power to remove those shortcomings
8. Making a list of wrongs done to others and being willing to make amends for those wrongs
9. Contacting those who have been hurt, unless doing so would harm the person
10. Continuing to take personal inventory and admitting when one is wrong
11. Seeking enlightenment and connection with the higher power via prayer and meditation
12. Carrying the message of the 12 Steps to others in need

Reference Step 1, go see a good psychiatrist.

Step 2, believe in the unknowable.

Step 3, see Step 2.

Step 4 OK

Step 5, the higher power I dealt with in Step 2. Go back to Step 2.

Step 6, see Step 2.

Step7, see Step2.

Step 8, Why?

Step 9, Step 9, I'll wait for those who have wronged me to apologize first.

Step 10. OK

Step 11, See Step 2

Step 12, OK if you skip the religious stuff.

From what I have heard, the meetings and the 12 Step Program have helped a lot of people. Does not seem like hooey to me.

 

[Visbek]

The research is quite clear that 12 step programs don't work. Their success rate is 10% or less. People think it works, because they hear about a handful of instances where it works, and blow off the failures by saying "addictions are hard to quit."

Plus, a lot of people buy into the blatantly Christian nature of the programs.

How it doesn't work: The dogma of the 12 steps

Dogma has no place in the addiction treatment field

www.psychologytoday.com

As much as it galls people to hear it, medication is likely a much better solution for dealing with addiction.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

The research is quite clear that 12 step programs don't work. Their success rate is 10% or less. People think it works, because they hear about a handful of instances where it works, and blow off the failures by saying "addictions are hard to quit."

I would argue that there's no real way to define a "success rate" of anything like this - but more importantly, when it works 10% of the time, that's still working.

If you were dying of a terminal disease, and there was a medication that worked 10% of the time, would you take it?

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Plus, a lot of people buy into the blatantly Christian nature of the programs.

On a superficial level. Not substantively.

I know more atheists in AA than I know Christians.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

As much as it galls people to hear it, medication is likely a much better solution for dealing with addiction.

There is no pill to cure addiction.

 

[JasperL]

I've been a part of a 12 step program, off an on, for about 15 years. I'll just say there are many ways to participate. There are those who treat the book and the steps as a religion of sorts, and some who don't. I'm in the latter. I quit a group because some self righteous asshole suggested I'd return to drinking because after 3 years I'd not done step 6 or something. It was a "step meeting" and I passed commenting because I'd not done that step. Anyway, after his comment predicting I was going to return to drinking, I told him to mind his own ****ing business, left and didn't come back, not so much because of him but that was the general "vibe" of that meeting, and this guy just said what I know others believed - these steps are sacred. They're not for ME. Still sober 12 years later (15 years total), still haven't done all the steps.... If they work for them, that's awesome, but we are each different.

But every 'meeting' has its own character. I at some point went to a dozen or so locally and now just attend one. Most of any meeting I attend is people sharing their stories, or sharing their problems, burdens, and then the group can respond or not, perhaps tell how THEY dealt with something. Just for example, one guy was newly sober and he talked about how hard it would be to attend a wedding with an open bar. What does he do if he's offered a drink? The answer was - don't worry about it. If you want, hold a glass of soda, with a lime. If you're offered a drink, say no thanks, you're good - the end. Explaining why isn't necessary. But the big lesson was generally NO ONE CARES if you drink, especially in the south where non-drinking is pretty common. Well, that's valuable information, people helping others, helping them overcome common problems we all face. And I met a bunch of now friends who showed me it's in fact possible to be a successful person, in society, have fun, and not drink. Before that I'd not had a dinner out in perhaps decades without a drink, attended a single party sober, certainly never attended a wedding sober, etc. I met happy, successful people who were a lot like me who did all that. It was for lack of a better word inspiring, motivating.

To me that kind of interaction is how the 'program' works if it does for someone. It's not the steps, for me at least, although I did find some useful. Introspection is good, recognizing how being a drunk asshole hurt others close to you is good, admitting that to them was good for me and my marriage and a few friendships. Some lean on the 'higher power' stuff, but I didn't find it necessary. But if that's what they need, that's awesome.

Where I do agree is for the 'program' to work, a person has to buy into the program. We had lots of people attend who just needed a slip signed for the courts, or a professional board (several doctors in that group) to show they were attending as ordered. I always thought that was BS, because nearly invariably those folks just sat there, didn't participate, were glued to their phones or a book. It's pointless. Drug test the shit out of them if needed (say for a surgeon) and let them choose how.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

I've been a part of a 12 step program, off an on, for about 15 years. I'll just say there are many ways to participate. There are those who treat the book and the steps as a religion of sorts, and some who don't. I'm in the latter. I quit a group because some self righteous asshole suggested I'd return to drinking because after 3 years I'd not done step 6 or something. It was a "step meeting" and I passed commenting because I'd not done that step. Anyway, after his comment predicting I was going to return to drinking, I told him to mind his own ****ing business, left and didn't come back, not so much because of him but that was the general "vibe" of that meeting, and this guy just said what I know others believed - these steps are sacred. They're not for ME. Still sober 12 years later (15 years total), still haven't done all the steps.... If they work for them, that's awesome, but we are each different.

But every 'meeting' has its own character. I at some point went to a dozen or so locally and now just attend one. Most of any meeting I attend is people sharing their stories, or sharing their problems, burdens, and then the group can respond or not, perhaps tell how THEY dealt with something. Just for example, one guy was newly sober and he talked about how hard it would be to attend a wedding with an open bar. What does he do if he's offered a drink? The answer was - don't worry about it. If you want, hold a glass of soda, with a lime. If you're offered a drink, say no thanks, you're good - the end. Explaining why isn't necessary. But the big lesson was generally NO ONE CARES if you drink, especially in the south where non-drinking is pretty common. Well, that's valuable information, people helping others, helping them overcome common problems we all face. And I met a bunch of now friends who showed me it's in fact possible to be a successful person, in society, have fun, and not drink. Before that I'd not had a dinner out in perhaps decades without a drink, attended a single party sober, certainly never attended a wedding sober, etc. I met happy, successful people who were a lot like me who did all that. It was for lack of a better word inspiring, motivating.

To me that kind of interaction is how the 'program' works if it does for someone. It's not the steps, for me at least, although I did find some useful. Introspection is good, recognizing how being a drunk asshole hurt others close to you is good, admitting that to them was good for me and my marriage and a few friendships. Some lean on the 'higher power' stuff, but I didn't find it necessary. But if that's what they need, that's awesome.

Where I do agree is for the 'program' to work, a person has to buy into the program. We had lots of people attend who just needed a slip signed for the courts, or a professional board (several doctors in that group) to show they were attending as ordered. I always thought that was BS, because nearly invariably those folks just sat there, didn't participate, were glued to their phones or a book. It's pointless. Drug test the shit out of them if needed (say for a surgeon) and let them choose how.

I'm not in the program either - nor am I "sober," or in recovery at all. But I had a lot of exposure to AA/NA and knew a lot of addicts and alcoholics, and even spent a few years working at a rehab as a counselor/tech.

The part of AA/NA that works is the community of support - not the rules and regulations. The rules and regulations - the steps, the slogans, the rituals of the meetings - those are there to keep people engaged with the community, and to define the structure of that community.

 

[Visbek]

I would argue that there's no real way to define a "success rate" of anything like this - but more importantly, when it works 10% of the time, that's still working.

There most certainly are ways to determine success rates of 12-step programs. All you need to do is determine how many people are still sober after they enter the program (e.g. 1 year, 5 year, 10 year etc). That's how we know that they are largely ineffective.

I mean, really. The programs were not developed using anything remotely scientific. There was no rigorous testing at all. It wasn't formed based on an extensive understanding of the physical or psychological causes of addiction. It doesn't try to address those causes either. And, of course, it puts a bunch of drug addicts in the same room, and has them tell war stories over and over again -- how is that supposed to fix things?

It's basically just snake oil that some religious guy dreamed up in 1935.

If you were dying of a terminal disease, and there was a medication that worked 10% of the time, would you take it?

OK, I'll play.

Are there other options? Is the treatment painful? Will it incapacitate me more than the illness during the time I have remaining? Will it only delay death by a few months? Will it bankrupt me? Was that 10% success rate worse than placebo? If I'm in the 90%, will it hasten my death? Why did the FDA approve such an ineffective drug? What do my doctors say?

We should also note that there are potential harms resulting from 12 step and similar talk-therapy approaches, mostly in how they dominate resources and expectations. For example, if a legislator opposes medical approaches that have a high success rate, because they believe that 12 step programs are far more effective than they really are, then that's going to cause serious issues.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Court Ordered 12-Step Attendance is Illegal

Wondering if court ordered 12-step attendance is illegal? You're not alone. Learn more about the practice of court ordered 12-step meetings.

www.practicalrecovery.com

You Cant Make Me Or Can You? Mandated AA Attendance and the Law - Drug Rehab Options

Should we mandate the nonreligious convicted of drug or alcohol misuse to go to AA? This question and the old laws generate discussion for secular options.

rehabs.com

Forced into AA against your will? Court Ordered attendance is Illegal

Have you received a court order to attend an Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A) meeting against your will? If so, you should be aware that it is illegal in the U.S. for a person to be compelled by a court or a government agency to participate in Alcoholics Anonymous when the 12-step philosophy violates...

lifeprocessprogram.com

 

[Airyaman]

12 step programs, religion, finding different addictions, meditation, yoga, etc. Whatever works for a person, let it be.

I had a drinking problem. Drank every night. More than just the suggested one or two small drinks. I quit cold turkey.

Occasionally, I might drink one beer while I'm out. Never more than that anymore though, and it's been months since I did that.

But that's me. Everyone has different approaches to life problems. If 12 step works for you, hope it works for a lifetime.

 

[JacksinPA]

On a superficial level. Not substantively.

I know more atheists in AA than I know Christians.

To have an atheist or agnostic join in a chorus of strangers reading the Lord's Prayer is hypocrisy, knowing or unknowing.

 

[Visbek]

There is no pill to cure addiction.

Actually, psychedelic therapies are showing significant promise in curing addiction -- meaning that a small number of doses, in a controlled environment, breaks the addiction long-term.

Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) is not a "cure" in that sense, as the patient needs to stay on medication (just like any other chronic condition). It's showing much better success than 12 step programs, and more importantly, the treatments are actually based on a scientific understanding of the physiological components of addiction.

12 step type programs also are not a cure, because you need to stay in them permanently -- e.g. proclaiming "I am an alcoholic" for the rest of your life, even when you haven't had a drink in 20 years. As noted above, the camaraderie is the part that apparently works, meaning that if you stop, you're escalating your chances of relapse.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

There most certainly are ways to determine success rates of 12-step programs. All you need to do is determine how many people are still sober after they enter the program (e.g. 1 year, 5 year, 10 year etc). That's how we know that they are largely ineffective.

So absolute sobriety until death is how you define success?

I got sent off to rehab as a teenager because I was a ****up who did a lot of drugs. I stayed sober in the program for about 4 years, and then I started drinking and smoking pot again. I still do both, 20 years later - and since then, I've a full and productive life. I finished my high school diploma, got a B.A. from Cal, a J.D. from George Washington, and passed the Bar. I'm happily married and financially secure. Am I a "failure?"

I know a guy who went to rehab, stayed for 2 months, and then 3 days after he got out, he got hit by a car while riding his bike, and was killed. He was sober until the day he died - is that a "success?"

For example, if a legislator opposes medical approaches that have a high success rate, because they believe that 12 step programs are far more effective than they really are, then that's going to cause serious issues.

There are no "medical approachs" that have a "high success rate." Everyone who says differently is trying to sell you some snake oil.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

To have an atheist or agnostic join in a chorus of strangers reading the Lord's Prayer is hypocrisy, knowing or unknowing.

No it isn't. It's just words.

 

[JacksinPA]

Actually, psychedelic therapies are showing significant promise in curing addiction -- meaning that a small number of doses, in a controlled environment, breaks the addiction long-term.

Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) is not a "cure" in that sense, as the patient needs to stay on medication (just like any other chronic condition). It's showing much better success than 12 step programs, and more importantly, the treatments are actually based on a scientific understanding of the physiological components of addiction.

12 step type programs also are not a cure, because you need to stay in them permanently -- e.g. proclaiming "I am an alcoholic" for the rest of your life, even when you haven't had a drink in 20 years. As noted above, the camaraderie is the part that apparently works, meaning that if you stop, you're escalating your chances of relapse.

If you habitually drink to excess, get into fights & auto accidents, get a DUI, etc., there is one certain way to give it up: start losing weight, enough to notice you dropping 5+ pounds every month. Alcohol pickles the tail part of your pancreas, the 'exocrine' part that cranks out digestive enzymes & bicarbonate to aid in digesting food after it leaves your stomach. That condition is called 'malabsorption,'. You lose weight because your body starts digesting itself. Keep drinking & you're likely to finish off the head, or 'endocrine' part of the pancreas that makes insulin. Diabetes, anyone?

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Actually, psychedelic therapies are showing significant promise in curing addiction -- meaning that a small number of doses, in a controlled environment, breaks the addiction long-term.

I've read some promising stuff about psychedelic therapies, and we'll see what comes out of it. But I doubt it'll be the magic bullet that a lot of people are claiming it is.

Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) is not a "cure" in that sense, as the patient needs to stay on medication (just like any other chronic condition). It's showing much better success than 12 step programs, and more importantly, the treatments are actually based on a scientific understanding of the physiological components of addiction.

The physiological components of addiction are the least important part.

MAT - excepting short-term use for detox - is just having the doctor take over as their supplier.

12 step type programs also are not a cure, because you need to stay in them permanently -- e.g. proclaiming "I am an alcoholic" for the rest of your life, even when you haven't had a drink in 20 years. As noted above, the camaraderie is the part that apparently works, meaning that if you stop, you're escalating your chances of relapse.

Yes, exactly. There is no cure.

 

[JacksinPA]

I've read some promising stuff about psychedelic therapies, and we'll see what comes out of it. But I doubt it'll be the magic bullet that a lot of people are claiming it is.




The physiological components of addiction are the least important part.

MAT - excepting short-term use for detox - is just having their doctor take over as their supplier.



Yes, exactly. There is no cure.

 

[Rawley]

To have an atheist or agnostic join in a chorus of strangers reading the Lord's Prayer is hypocrisy, knowing or unknowing.

I'd assume an atheist or agnostic would choose different program.

 

[JacksinPA]

I've read some promising stuff about psychedelic therapies, and we'll see what comes out of it. But I doubt it'll be the magic bullet that a lot of people are claiming it is.




The physiological components of addiction are the least important part.

MAT - excepting short-term use for detox - is just having the doctor take over as their supplier.



Yes, exactly. There is no cure.

Ibogaine from an African tree is an interesting psychedelic that is not on lists of these anti-opioid drugs that I've seen. See: https://time.com/5951772/ibogaine-drug-treatment-addiction/

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Ibogaine from an African tree is an interesting psychedelic that is not on lists of these anti-opioid drugs that I've seen. See: https://time.com/5951772/ibogaine-drug-treatment-addiction/

People have been experimenting with treating opiod dependency with ibogaine since at least the 1950s. It's supposedly a pretty unpleasant experience, though.

 

[BirdinHand]

I think that a lot of programs/methods that can help someone overcome an addiction are a “win” for the people they help. But what might work for one person - might not work for another. That’s ok.