Turns Out There's a Jewish Element Over Ukraine

[vegas giants]

Are there any space lasers involved with this?

Damm jews and their space lasers

 

[XDU]

Again....in your opinion

That's very deliberately not an opinion.

Finnish Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Declaration of Independence of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[XDU]

One day is enough if the world supports it

If that's the argument, then international relations would just be a matter of who knows who to garnish favoritism.

It defeats the purpose of even trying to establish legitimacy. We might as well just have perpetual anarchy from disagreements.

 

[vegas giants]

That's very deliberately not an opinion.

Finnish Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Declaration of Independence of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They dont mention communism here


Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine

In view of the mortal danger surrounding Ukraine in connection with the state coup in the USSR on August 19, 1991,Continuing the thousand-year tradition of state development in Ukraine,Proceeding from the right of a nation to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and other international legal documents, andImplementing the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine,

the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic solemnly declares
the Independence of Ukraine and the creation of an independent Ukrainian state – UKRAINE.

The territory of Ukraine is indivisible and inviolable.

From this day forward, only the Constitution and laws of Ukraine are valid on the territory of Ukraine.

This act becomes effective at the moment of its approval.

— Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, August 24, 1991

 

[vegas giants]

If that's the argument, then international relations would just be a matter of who knows who to garnish favoritism.

It defeats the purpose of even trying to establish legitimacy. We might as well just have perpetual anarchy from disagreements.

Legitimacy is defined by acceptance by the world. That is the only legitimacy that counts

 

[Slartibartfast]

I'm not disagreeing there, but that spectrum is an evaluation of natural phenomena.

The independence of manmade states by definition is not natural phenomena.

Teaching sand to "think" is not a natural phenomena, but we use computers every day.

 

[XDU]

They dont mention communism here


Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine

In view of the mortal danger surrounding Ukraine in connection with the state coup in the USSR on August 19, 1991,Continuing the thousand-year tradition of state development in Ukraine,Proceeding from the right of a nation to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and other international legal documents, andImplementing the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine,

the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic solemnly declares
the Independence of Ukraine and the creation of an independent Ukrainian state – UKRAINE.

The territory of Ukraine is indivisible and inviolable.

From this day forward, only the Constitution and laws of Ukraine are valid on the territory of Ukraine.

This act becomes effective at the moment of its approval.

— Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, August 24, 1991

You're nitpicking at the parts which don't refer to the communist party.

The Act was adopted in the aftermath of the coup attempt in the Soviet Union on 19 August, when hardline Communist leaders attempted to restore central Communist party control over the USSR.[1] In response (during a tense 11-hour extraordinary session),[3] the Supreme Soviet (parliament) of the Ukrainian SSR, in a special Saturday session, overwhelmingly approved the Act of Declaration.[1] The Act passed with 321 votes in favor, 2 votes against, and 6 abstentions (out of 360 attendants).[3] The text was largely composed during the night of 23 August–24 August mainly by Levko Lukyanenko, Serhiy Holovatyi, Mykhailo Horyn, Ivan Zayets and Vyacheslav Chornovil.[4]

The Communist Party of Ukraine (CPU), being persuaded behind the scenes by its fellow Party member and Supreme Soviet Chairman Leonid Kravchuk,[4] felt compelled to support the Act in order to distance itself from the coup.[3] CPU First Secretary Stanislav Hurenko argued that "it will be a disaster" if the CPU were to fail to support independence.[3] CPU members had been unnerved by the news of former party leader Vladimir Ivashko's arrest in Moscow, the re-subordination of the Soviet Army under the leaders of the Russian SFSR and the sealing of the Communist Party Central Committee's premises.[4]

You don't seem to be intellectually honest anymore.

 

[Slartibartfast]

You're nitpicking at the parts which don't refer to the communist party.

The Act was adopted in the aftermath of the coup attempt in the Soviet Union on 19 August, when hardline Communist leaders attempted to restore central Communist party control over the USSR.[1] In response (during a tense 11-hour extraordinary session),[3] the Supreme Soviet (parliament) of the Ukrainian SSR, in a special Saturday session, overwhelmingly approved the Act of Declaration.[1] The Act passed with 321 votes in favor, 2 votes against, and 6 abstentions (out of 360 attendants).[3] The text was largely composed during the night of 23 August–24 August mainly by Levko Lukyanenko, Serhiy Holovatyi, Mykhailo Horyn, Ivan Zayets and Vyacheslav Chornovil.[4]

The Communist Party of Ukraine (CPU), being persuaded behind the scenes by its fellow Party member and Supreme Soviet Chairman Leonid Kravchuk,[4] felt compelled to support the Act in order to distance itself from the coup.[3] CPU First Secretary Stanislav Hurenko argued that "it will be a disaster" if the CPU were to fail to support independence.[3] CPU members had been unnerved by the news of former party leader Vladimir Ivashko's arrest in Moscow, the re-subordination of the Soviet Army under the leaders of the Russian SFSR and the sealing of the Communist Party Central Committee's premises.[4]

You don't seem to be intellectually honest anymore.

Ukraine is (was) a sovereign nation, if they want to be communist, that's an internal matter. From a practical perspective, they will probably crash and burn but its up to them and they certainly shouldn't be invaded for it. Sanction them until they honor human rights? Absolutely! Invading them? Absolutely not!

 

[Nomad4Ever]

What I'm saying is there is no quantity of time upon which we can say the line was crossed because it's entirely a matter of opinion to quantify it.

Legitimacy must be based on qualitative events. Otherwise, we're just playing favorites over how long is long enough.

Time has nothing to do with it. As another comment said, 1 day is long enough. The US was a valid independent country from day 1. Ukraine meets every possible academically recognized standard for an independent nation. You're argument is so indefensible even Russia isn't running this line. They are dealing with Ukraine as a separate nation.

 

[XDU]

Teaching sand to "think" is not a natural phenomena, but we use computers every day.

We interpret the feedback computers give us after programming them to function in the first place.

 

[vegas giants]

You're nitpicking at the parts which don't refer to the communist party.

The Act was adopted in the aftermath of the coup attempt in the Soviet Union on 19 August, when hardline Communist leaders attempted to restore central Communist party control over the USSR.[1] In response (during a tense 11-hour extraordinary session),[3] the Supreme Soviet (parliament) of the Ukrainian SSR, in a special Saturday session, overwhelmingly approved the Act of Declaration.[1] The Act passed with 321 votes in favor, 2 votes against, and 6 abstentions (out of 360 attendants).[3] The text was largely composed during the night of 23 August–24 August mainly by Levko Lukyanenko, Serhiy Holovatyi, Mykhailo Horyn, Ivan Zayets and Vyacheslav Chornovil.[4]

The Communist Party of Ukraine (CPU), being persuaded behind the scenes by its fellow Party member and Supreme Soviet Chairman Leonid Kravchuk,[4] felt compelled to support the Act in order to distance itself from the coup.[3] CPU First Secretary Stanislav Hurenko argued that "it will be a disaster" if the CPU were to fail to support independence.[3] CPU members had been unnerved by the news of former party leader Vladimir Ivashko's arrest in Moscow, the re-subordination of the Soviet Army under the leaders of the Russian SFSR and the sealing of the Communist Party Central Committee's premises.[4]

You don't seem to be intellectually honest anymore.

Ok I accept your concession. If insult is all you have you have conceded


Ukraine is a legitimate independent country and the whole world knows it.....even Russia

 

[XDU]

Ukraine is (was) a sovereign nation, if they want to be communist, that's an internal matter. From a practical perspective, they will probably crash and burn but its up to them and they certainly shouldn't be invaded for it.

Eh... that's really not valid. Not only is communism a totalitarian ideology, but again, Ukraine decommunized immediately after the declaration, and communism is what oppressed Ukraine from Holodomor.

This is why I referred to the Trotskyite article before. The point was to distinguish Stalin's policy from Trotsky's alternative and how Trotskyism coincides with the New York Intellectuals who facilitate neoconservative foreign policy.

There is legitimacy at stake, but it's tricky to establish. We must not oversimplify this because if we do, it can have serious repercussions on how international law works.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I'm not disagreeing there, but that spectrum is an evaluation of natural phenomena.

The independence of manmade states by definition is not natural phenomena.

Literally nobody in this thread claimed it is. Obviously it's a subjective man made concept. The thing is, Ukraine meets every single broadly applied subjective standard of sovereignty humanity has ever devised. This isn't Taiwan, which I strongly also believe is a valid sovereign nation but at least there you could waffle up some kind of argument.

Find even one academic definition of a sovereign nation that Ukraine fails to meet. Please.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Eh... that's really not valid. Not only is communism is totalitarian ideology, but again, Ukraine decommunized immediately after the declaration, and communism is what oppressed Ukraine from Holodomor.

This is why I referred to the Trotskyite article before. The point was to distinguish Stalin's policy from Trotsky's alternative and how Trotskyism coincides with the New York Intellectuals who facilitate neoconservative foreign policy.

There is legitimacy at stake, but it's tricky to establish. We must not oversimplify this because if we do, it can serious repercussions on how international law works.

Its the only thing thats valid in this discussion. Whether they want to be communist or not is not a determinant on whether they should be invaded.

Communism has been tried and if its not balanced by a market system, it crashes and burns or turns into a dictatorship. The situation will resolve itself without intervention.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

There is legitimacy at stake, but it's tricky to establish. We must not oversimplify this because if we do, it can have serious repercussions on how international law works.

What possible repercussions? What is being simplified? Who besides you is claiming that Ukraine isn't a valid state? You are literally just saying things at this point.

 

[XDU]

Its the only thing thats valid in this discussion. Whether they want to be communist or not is not a determinant on whether they should be invaded.

Communism has been tried and if its not balanced by a market system, it crashes and burns or turns into a dictatorship. The situation will resolve itself without intervention.

How is it the only thing that's valid? Why do the other two points deserve to be dismissed?

Furthermore, communism is a valid reason to be invaded. It violates international human rights from its intrinsically intimidating structure which chills people from speaking up for themselves out of self-respect and self-defense.

 

[XDU]

What possible repercussions? What is being simplified? Who besides you is claiming that Ukraine isn't a valid state? You are literally just saying things at this point.

The model of recognizing Ukraine as intrinsically valid simply for existing and getting recognized for a certain period of time suggests international law is grounded in arbitrary favoritism.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Furthermore, communism is a valid reason to be invaded.

I think you might be the one that needs a better definition of sovereignty. No political scientist would agree with you.

 

[Slartibartfast]

How is it the only thing that's valid? Why do the other two points deserve to be dismissed?

Furthermore, communism is a valid reason to be invaded. It violates international human rights from its intrinsically intimidating structure which chills people from speaking up for themselves out of self-respect and self-defense.

Because in international law, national sovereignty is respected and its already been shown that Russia engages in international law (by being part of the UN and having embassies).

Communism is not a valid reason to be invaded. Communism is a valid reason to be sanctioned.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The model of recognizing Ukraine as intrinsically valid simply for existing and getting recognized for a certain period of time suggests international law is grounded in arbitrary favoritism.

Nobody is saying that's what makes them a sovereign nation except for you arguing against yourself. Find me an academically recognized definition of national sovereignty and argue why Ukraine fails to meet that definition or accept that you have no argument and go take an online poly sci course or something.

 

[XDU]

I think you might be the one that needs a better definition of sovereignty. No political scientist would agree with you.

Sovereignty is premised on a legitimate monopoly on violence. How does communism uphold legitimacy when it's explicitly against any semblance of idealism, properness, or abstract exchange value and only judges right and wrong on a relative basis of what's useful?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Sovereignty is premised on a legitimate monopoly on violence. How does communism uphold legitimacy when it's explicitly against any semblance of idealism, properness, or abstract exchange value and only judges right and wrong on a relative basis of what's useful?

I don't like communism and don't think its a legitimate form of government either, but to think there is a universal way of measuring this sort of thing is just silly.

 

[XDU]

Because in international law, national sovereignty is respected and its already been shown that Russia engages in international law (by being part of the UN and having embassies).

Communism is not a valid reason to be invaded. Communism is a valid reason to be sanctioned.

Russia inherited the Soviet Union's institutions. The maintenance of that participation isn't proof of respect. It could have just as well been licking its wounds while in a position of intimidation from the international community making an appeal to absurdity; "Do you really want to exclude yourself from the worldwide community this way?"

Had Russia gone after Ukraine immediately after the inheritance was complete, there would have been good reason to see intervention on Ukraine's behalf since the world was convinced that Russia lost from the Cold War ending. Instead, Russia has been waiting for resistance within Ukraine to show itself. That resistance has shown, so now, it has good reason to invade.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Russia inherited the Soviet Union's institutions. The maintenance of that participation isn't proof of respect. It could have just as well been licking its wounds while in a position of intimidation from the international community making an appeal to absurdity; "Do you really want to exclude yourself from the worldwide community this way?"

Had Russia gone after Ukraine immediately after the inheritance was complete, there would have been good reason to see intervention on Ukraine's behalf since the world was convinced that Russia lost from the Cold War ending. Instead, Russia has been waiting for resistance within Ukraine to show itself. That resistance has shown, so now, it has good reason to invade.

You fell for Putin's gaslighting if you think this is true.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Sovereignty is premised on a legitimate monopoly on violence.

No, it isn't. You are talking about what a legitimate state is domestically. That has nothing to do with what a country is.

There is no universally recognized definition of sovereignty. However, here are the two most commonly used ones.

The treaty defined a State using four criteria--a permanent population, a defined territory, a government, and a capacity to enter into relations with other States.

The convention also declared that a State did not have to be recognized by other States, meaning a country could exist even if other countries did not recognize it.

Conversely, the constitutive theory of statehood said that a country existed if it was recognized as sovereign by other countries. Therefore, if other countries recognized a country as independent, it was, even if the country did not have control of its territory or a permanent population.

State, Country, and Nation

The criteria that define a country, an independent State, and a nation

www.infoplease.com

How does communism uphold legitimacy when it's explicitly against any semblance of idealism, properness, or abstract exchange value and only judges right and wrong on a relative basis of what's useful?

Completely irrelevant. Nazi Germany was technically a legitimate state. The degree of despotism of a country has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is a sovereign nation or not and the fact that you would even go down that line of argument is incredibly revealing of your knowledge on this subject.