Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

[Renae]

So, Turkey is big bad evil, but when Saddam's use of WMD was shown... we were told not to care? Odd.

And why is this in Der Speigel and not elsewhere. PS When did this occur, the article caused my old ass PC to crash.

 

[DiAnna]

Several European newspapers have picked up this story, which was reported by UPI (one of the big three global media sources) and Reuters (hardly a fan of Israel). The story emanated in Germany, and even if it's been basically ignored in the USA, it would have significant consequences in Europe should it be found to be true.

I honestly can't see how this could be turned into an Israeli thread. The mind boggles...

 

[PeteEU]

First of all it could be that the JP is merely biased, so there is no logic behind the automatic claim for "being a mouthpiece for the government".

JP is biased and more than not it does the bidding of the Israeli government. It always has, and always will.

As to the article at hand, here is the original article from the Der Spiegel:
Shocking Images of Dead Kurdish Fighters: Turkey Accused of Using Chemical Weapons against PKK - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Not the original article. The original article is below.

Kämpfe in Ostanatolien: Türkei soll Kurden mit Chemiewaffen getötet haben - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

And there is a mark difference. The whole first paragraph in the English version is different than the German on many levels and sets the tone of the whole article. And there is a mark difference in tone. For one the English version starts off with:

German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons

This sets a tone of, "experts" have confirmed that Turkey uses chemical weapons.

Now the original paragraph in German mentions nothing about German experts what so ever. Basically the whole first paragraph in English is totally different than the German version. The rest of the article is pretty much correctly translated but the tone is already set. Why Der Spiegel changed the wording I have no idea, just as I have no idea why JP used the translated English version and not the original version in their attack on Turkey.

The original article first paragraph sounds like this.

Human rights activists accuse Turkey of using chemical weapons against Kurdish revolutionaries. Experts confirms accusation. German politicians demand international investigation.

Now that is quite the difference to the English version.

Plus JP omits stuff from the English version.. like Turkey denying even having chemical weapons.

As you can see the original article is much more strongly worded and is actually confident in its stance that Turkey has indeed used Chemical weapons, so this kinda makes your accusation towards the Israeli report on that article to be pretty bizarre and irrational.

As I said, your link is not the original article.

I myself think that the OP should have been the article from the Der Spiegel instead of a report on that article from any other source, but I don't see how the difference is working against the Turks here.

Yes he should, the link I provided.

But it does not matter, because like it or not it is an accusation that so far has not been backed up what so ever, and accusations coming from a Kurdish "human rights" group. Turkey has denied even having chemical weapons. Turkey has denied everything in matter of fact.

This whole thread belongs in conspiracy theories more than in breaking news.

 

[PeteEU]

Several European newspapers have picked up this story, which was reported by UPI (one of the big three global media sources) and Reuters (hardly a fan of Israel). The story emanated in Germany, and even if it's been basically ignored in the USA, it would have significant consequences in Europe should it be found to be true.

Have not seen it anywhere and yes I do read quite a few newspapers. But saying that, these accusations have been around for decades and have only been that.. accusations.

I honestly can't see how this could be turned into an Israeli thread. The mind boggles...

It started off as a part Israeli thread.. the OP posted an article from an Israeli newspaper that was conveniently changed from the original version to create a more negative view of Turkey. That sets off a lot of alarms considering the present Turkish vs Israeli relations.

 

[Laila]

So, Turkey is big bad evil, but when Saddam's use of WMD was shown... we were told not to care? Odd.

My reaction exactly.

Is anyone else seeing the double standard?
Either way, Turkey is in NATO. If the West turns it back on genocides, we will not care about the Kurds

 

[theunbubba]

True. But all that has to happen is this:

The government that used the weapons must be voted from power and possibly punished. The people shouldn't be.

Since it's a parliamentary form there, it should be no problem. I'm quite sure there is a Turkish edition of Der Spiegel. Considering the rise of Turkey as a business power in the region, there must be quite a lot of trade between Germany and Turkey.

 

[theunbubba]

First off the Israeli newspaper is highly biased and always has been. It is basically the mouth piece of the Israeli government. It has taken a German article that did not even make the front page, and twisted the words to make the accusation sound much more substantive than they are. There is a stark difference in tone and information between the original article and the one "transcribed" in the Israeli newspaper. Wonder why the key differences...

For one, why does the Israeli article not mention that in the original article stated that Turkey have stated they have no chemical or bio weapons? Or that it was Turkish-Kurdish "human rights" groups that gave the information and pictures to German human rights groups, and selective politicians and journalists? Low standing politicians for the most part on the far left?

Or why did the Israeli article not question the whole thing about a German forensic report.... the German forensic team have had no access to the bodies. The German article mentions that there is supposed a real autopsy report.

Basically, it is another shot over the bow by the Israeli propaganda machine to discredit Turkey in their own going pissing contest over the flotilla raid.

This is interesting. I hadn't had tme to take a peek at this. Sounds like you're on to something here.

 

[Apocalypse]

JP is biased and more than not it does the bidding of the Israeli government. It always has, and always will.

According to you, I have zero reasons to take your position and believe your claims hold any truth to them at all.
The JP is an independent newspaper and always was, you may claim it is biased but it is not controlled by the government.

Not the original article. The original article is below.

Kämpfe in Ostanatolien: Türkei soll Kurden mit Chemiewaffen getötet haben - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

And there is a mark difference. The whole first paragraph in the English version is different than the German on many levels and sets the tone of the whole article. And there is a mark difference in tone. For one the English version starts off with:

This sets a tone of, "experts" have confirmed that Turkey uses chemical weapons.

Now the original paragraph in German mentions nothing about German experts what so ever. Basically the whole first paragraph in English is totally different than the German version. The rest of the article is pretty much correctly translated but the tone is already set. Why Der Spiegel changed the wording I have no idea, just as I have no idea why JP used the translated English version and not the original version in their attack on Turkey.

The original article first paragraph sounds like this.

Now that is quite the difference to the English version.

That's ridiculous Pete, the English version is translated by the Der Spiegel themselves, your claim here that the English version is biased against Turkey while the original version is not is absolutely bizarre.

Plus JP omits stuff from the English version.. like Turkey denying even having chemical weapons.

I don't think that's such a relevant information, it is well known that Turkey has never declared its Chemical weapons arsenal, that's what makes the use of such weapons even more wrong.

As I said, your link is not the original article.

Yes it is, it is the English version of the original article translated by the Der Spiegel.

Yes he should, the link I provided.

No, that's against forum's rules, articles are to be written in English, not in French, German, Italian, etc.

But it does not matter, because like it or not it is an accusation that so far has not been backed up what so ever, and accusations coming from a Kurdish "human rights" group. Turkey has denied even having chemical weapons. Turkey has denied everything in matter of fact.

The reason for this you can find in my earlier posts in this thread.
I don't see the international community taking interest in opposing Turkey over anything, it's not like the majority of the world admits to the Armenian genocide, after all.

This whole thread belongs in conspiracy theories more than in breaking news.

If only due to your posts in it.

 

[PeteEU]

That's ridiculous Pete, the English version is translated by the Der Spiegel themselves, your claim here that the English version is biased against Turkey while the original version is not is absolutely bizarre.

The English version is translated by Der Spiegel and it is word for word, EXCEPT the opening paragraph. Why is that? And you know as well as I do, that a tone of an article is set in the first paragraph.

I don't think that's such a relevant information, it is well known that Turkey has never declared its Chemical weapons arsenal, that's what makes the use of such weapons even more wrong.

It is a key piece of information that makes the JP piece biased. As for Turkey not declaring its chemical weapon arsenal.. yea because they dont have one. Not everyone keeps secret stashes of WMD you know..

Yes it is, it is the English version of the original article translated by the Der Spiegel.

I have pointed out the flaw, but you keep ignoring it.

The reason for this you can find in my earlier posts in this thread.
I don't see the international community taking interest in opposing Turkey over anything, it's not like the majority of the world admits to the Armenian genocide, after all.

LOL talk about conspiracy theory. The rest of the world could give a damn about Turkey in general, so a genocide that happened almost 100 years ago will not register much interest. But thanks for proving my point about this being part of the continuing propaganda fight between Israel and Turkey..

If only due to your posts in it.

No because of the OP. This is no different than if someone took an article from an English version of say a Colombian news source, claiming that Arabic human rights sources have provided evidence of Israel using WMD against Palestinians. Would you believe them? I would not.

 

[PeteEU]

Oh and speaking of board rules... title of thread does not match the article linked title.

 

[Apocalypse]

The English version is translated by Der Spiegel and it is word for word, EXCEPT the opening paragraph. Why is that? And you know as well as I do, that a tone of an article is set in the first paragraph.

I still find it extremely absurd that you actually believe that a Der Spiegel article that is translated into English by Der Spiegel is biased while the same article in German is not.
So do you believe that Der Spiegel are only biased when they translate their own articles?

It is a key piece of information that makes the JP piece biased. As for Turkey not declaring its chemical weapon arsenal.. yea because they dont have one. Not everyone keeps secret stashes of WMD you know..

You seem to have already decided that they don't have any arsenal.
There's no reason to rule that out considering the Der Spiegel article and its presented evidence.

I have pointed out the flaw, but you keep ignoring it.

This flaw is only a flaw by absurd terms and standards, the Der Spiegel article is not biased at all, not in English and not in German.

LOL talk about conspiracy theory. The rest of the world could give a damn about Turkey in general, so a genocide that happened almost 100 years ago will not register much interest. But thanks for proving my point about this being part of the continuing propaganda fight between Israel and Turkey..

Only pointing out the international community's handling of the Turkish issues.

No because of the OP. This is no different than if someone took an article from an English version of say a Colombian news source, claiming that Arabic human rights sources have provided evidence of Israel using WMD against Palestinians. Would you believe them? I would not.

The Der Spiegel states quite clearly that:

"German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation."

That's a lot more than merely a Kurdish human rights group taking a jab at Turkey.
But then again, you see only what you want to see.

 

[Ben K.]

So, Turkey is big bad evil, but when Saddam's use of WMD was shown... we were told not to care? Odd.

We were told by who not to care? Der Spiegel? The JP? Governments? I remember Iraq being ostracised from the international community throughout the 90s and early 00s. Don't see any indication Turkey will receive that treatment...

 

[Ben K.]

The English version is translated by Der Spiegel and it is word for word, EXCEPT the opening paragraph. Why is that? And you know as well as I do, that a tone of an article is set in the first paragraph.

That's irrelevant. Der Spiegel isn't generally viewed as a government mouthpiece for anyone and their article was written by them. That an English language newspaper should use the English version of another newspaper as a source is unsurprising. They left out the the governments denial, and that's poor reporting in any context, but most rational people don't get persuaded by government denials these days so I'm n not seeing that having much of an effect on readers.

It is a key piece of information that makes the JP piece biased. As for Turkey not declaring its chemical weapon arsenal.. yea because they dont have one. Not everyone keeps secret stashes of WMD you know..

I'm not sure why you would take it on faith that Turkey doesn't have chemical weapons because their government says they don't. That's incredibly naieve.


The only thing I can agree on is that the timing is suspect and that this may be part of the ME propaganda war. Thing is, opposing interests to Turkey may have blocked stories like while they were cosy with Turkey and are now allowing it into the open. Propaganda does not only involve creating news but also controlling it. In any case investigation is warranted.

 

[PeteEU]

I still find it extremely absurd that you actually believe that a Der Spiegel article that is translated into English by Der Spiegel is biased while the same article in German is not.
So do you believe that Der Spiegel are only biased when they translate their own articles?

Then you explain why there is such a mark difference.... no wait you dont deal in facts. And I dont claim that the Der Spiegel article in English is biased, but that it is not the same. But then again the OP linked article is not the same as the English translation either.

You seem to have already decided that they don't have any arsenal.

I have never ever seen any evidence from anyone that they do have it.

There's no reason to rule that out considering the Der Spiegel article and its presented evidence.

What evidence? The article presents no evidence but only hear say. Pictures are out of context, location and time.

This flaw is only a flaw by absurd terms and standards, the Der Spiegel article is not biased at all, not in English and not in German.

Never said it was. I have stated that there was a marked difference in the first paragraph of the two, where as the rest is pretty much word for word translated. I have said that the OP article from the JP is biased. And that it is, not to mention inaccurate. IT calls Der Spiegel a newspaper.. it aint.

Only pointing out the international community's handling of the Turkish issues.

Which is no different than the international communities handling of issues in other countries. Now if there is evidence of wrong doing then watch the attitude change. But until that, who cares.

The Der Spiegel states quite clearly that:

"German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation."

First off, in the German version of the article it is EXPERT, not EXPERTS. It is one expert, named Hans Bauman.

Secondly the second part of the above paragraph does not exist in the German version. The closest you can get to

which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels

is a comment from Gisela Penteker, a Turkish (most likely a Kurd) representative of International Physicians for the prevention of nuclear war. In the comment he floats the idea that Turkey is suspected of having chemical weapons.

That's a lot more than merely a Kurdish human rights group taking a jab at Turkey.

Not really. Everyone involved pretty much in exposing this scandal come from far left organisations and Kurdish organisations.

But then again, you see only what you want to see.

No you only want to see an evil bad Turkey using WMD.

 

[PeteEU]

That's irrelevant. Der Spiegel isn't generally viewed as a government mouthpiece for anyone and their article was written by them. That an English language newspaper should use the English version of another newspaper as a source is unsurprising. They left out the the governments denial, and that's poor reporting in any context, but most rational people don't get persuaded by government denials these days so I'm n not seeing that having much of an effect on readers.

The English version of Der Spiegel does not leave out the government denial. The only difference between the German and English version is the first paragraph for some reason.

I'm not sure why you would take it on faith that Turkey doesn't have chemical weapons because their government says they don't. That's incredibly naieve.

No I am stating a fact, a fact that should be in the JP article. Now weather I believe that fact is another matter I have not discussed. And for the record, it would not surprise me if they had chemical weapons.

The only thing I can agree on is that the timing is suspect and that this may be part of the ME propaganda war. Thing is, opposing interests to Turkey may have blocked stories like while they were cosy with Turkey and are now allowing it into the open. Propaganda does not only involve creating news but also controlling it. In any case investigation is warranted.

That may be, and yes an investigation is warranted but you know just as well as I do there wont be one. Turkey is like most other countries,... they dont open up their borders for investigations by outsiders.

 

[Apocalypse]

Then you explain why there is such a mark difference.... no wait you dont deal in facts. And I dont claim that the Der Spiegel article in English is biased, but that it is not the same. But then again the OP linked article is not the same as the English translation either.

The Der Spiegel article I've read, the one I gave a link to, is much more strong worded than the JP article made over it.
It claims the photo is authenticated and that German politicians have called for an inquiry.

I have never ever seen any evidence from anyone that they do have it.

The evidence provided by the article is enough to raise suspicion, that you simply rule it out without regarding to it as a possibility merely means that you don't operate by evidence.

What evidence? The article presents no evidence but only hear say. Pictures are out of context, location and time.

""German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation.""

-Der Spiegel

Never said it was. I have stated that there was a marked difference in the first paragraph of the two, where as the rest is pretty much word for word translated. I have said that the OP article from the JP is biased. And that it is, not to mention inaccurate. IT calls Der Spiegel a newspaper.. it aint.

The claims you've used to back those statements are absurd, like that Turkey has denied having such arsenal, that is hardly a statement that requires a repeating, it is well known that Turkey has never declared having a chemical arsenal.

Which is no different than the international communities handling of issues in other countries. Now if there is evidence of wrong doing then watch the attitude change. But until that, who cares.

I disagree, it is way different of the international community's handling of issues in specific other countries.

First off, in the German version of the article it is EXPERT, not EXPERTS. It is one expert, named Hans Bauman.

Secondly the second part of the above paragraph does not exist in the German version. The closest you can get to is a comment from Gisela Penteker, a Turkish (most likely a Kurd) representative of International Physicians for the prevention of nuclear war. In the comment he floats the idea that Turkey is suspected of having chemical weapons.

I don't know about it, I hardly read German and I can't confirm your claims.

Not really. Everyone involved pretty much in exposing this scandal come from far left organisations and Kurdish organisations.

And the photo was authenticated according to the Der Spiegel.

No you only want to see an evil bad Turkey using WMD.

I see what is there. The evidence requires an investigation, one that would not take place due to the international community's dominating agenda.

 

[PeteEU]

The Der Spiegel article I've read, the one I gave a link to, is much more strong worded than the JP article made over it.
It claims the photo is authenticated and that German politicians have called for an inquiry.

And as I stated, the first paragraph in the English version is very different than the original German version. Why do you continue to ignore this fact? The "authentication" as you call it, is just a conformation that the pictures have not been photoshopped.

And I just noticed that the title of the English version is totally different and gives a totally different meaning than the German.

The English version says "Shocking images of Dead Kurdish Fighters" followed by "Turkey accused of using Chemical weapons against the PKK"

Now the German version says "Fighting in East Antolia" and "Turkey accused of using Chemical weapons against Kurds". While the second part can be seen as acceptably close, the first part is ... so way off that it is not even funny. Some translation there.

And this brings us back to the JP article... it states "Turkey hits PKK with chemical weapons". That is in no way near any the original article nor the English translation.. that is more than an accusation.. that is trying to state a fact that there is not. Pathetic partisan journalism

The evidence provided by the article is enough to raise suspicion, that you simply rule it out without regarding to it as a possibility merely means that you don't operate by evidence.

No I dont rule anything out, but I do question the evidence and where it comes from and especially with the available evidence. You on the other hand seem to believe the evidence hands down.. why is that? Is it because it is Turkey, a now "arch" enemy of Israel because of the flotilla raid?

The claims you've used to back those statements are absurd, like that Turkey has denied having such arsenal, that is hardly a statement that requires a repeating, it is well known that Turkey has never declared having a chemical arsenal.

Well known by who? Conspiracy theorists? Do they have nukes too then? How about secret alien flying saucers?

I disagree, it is way different of the international community's handling of issues in specific other countries.

Hardly. Give us examples, and no you cant use Israel. Show us examples in say South America, or Asia!

I don't know about it, I hardly read German and I can't confirm your claims.

From the original article.

Inzwischen hat Hans Baumann, ein deutscher Bildfälschungsexperte, die Authentizität der Fotos verifiziert

It states that Hans Baumnn, a German picture falsification expert, confirms the authenticity of the pictures. Google translate if you dont believe me. And I ask you this, Hans Baumann is an expert on what.. picture falsification or confirming that they are of dead PKK fighters that died of chemical weapons?

That is one expert, not experts.

And the photo was authenticated according to the Der Spiegel.

yes for not being a false made up picture.... HUGE difference to confirming the content of the picture.. again you FAIL.

I see what is there. The evidence requires an investigation, one that would not take place due to the international community's dominating agenda.

No because no country would subject it self to outside investigation, just like Israel refuse to accommodate an international investigation into the flotilla raid.

 

[Renae]

We were told by who not to care? Der Spiegel? The JP? Governments? I remember Iraq being ostracised from the international community throughout the 90s and early 00s. Don't see any indication Turkey will receive that treatment...

Uhm.... lead up to the Iraq War, Iraq had used WMD, weren't being forth coming, imagine people willing to gas Kurds and work with terrorist...

I recall hearing/reading "That happened years ago, what does it matter?"

So again, when did these "Chem attacks" happen? This year? Last Year? 10 years ago? I seem to be missing the time frame here.

 

[washunut]

The only thing I can agree on is that the timing is suspect and that this may be part of the ME propaganda war. Thing is, opposing interests to Turkey may have blocked stories like while they were cosy with Turkey and are now allowing it into the open. Propaganda does not only involve creating news but also controlling it. In any case investigation is warranted.

Could not agree more that an investigation is warranted. Why the UN allows this type of event to be reported and not investigate says a lot about the institution. It is not as if Turkey has not killed many Kurds over the years.

 

[Ben K.]

Uhm.... lead up to the Iraq War, Iraq had used WMD, weren't being forth coming, imagine people willing to gas Kurds and work with terrorist...

I recall hearing/reading "That happened years ago, what does it matter?"

So again, when did these "Chem attacks" happen? This year? Last Year? 10 years ago? I seem to be missing the time frame here.

This was revealed before the first Gulf War. As I said, Iraq was ostracised by the international community. I don't think I recall anyone suggesting we treat Iraq like how we treat Turkey currently or how we're likely to treat them even after this evidence is presented. The use of chemical weapons on Kurds wasn't presented as a causus belli for the Gluf War or the Iraq War. Your point is silly, no one is saying Turkey is as evil or more evil than Iraq was.

 

[Apocalypse]

And as I stated, the first paragraph in the English version is very different than the original German version. Why do you continue to ignore this fact? The "authentication" as you call it, is just a conformation that the pictures have not been photoshopped.

The article states that the photographs that show dead PKK members who were killed by chemical weapons is authenticated.
That automatically places suspicion on Turkey and calls for an investigation, as the article also goes to state.

And I just noticed that the title of the English version is totally different and gives a totally different meaning than the German.

The English version says "Shocking images of Dead Kurdish Fighters" followed by "Turkey accused of using Chemical weapons against the PKK"

Now the German version says "Fighting in East Antolia" and "Turkey accused of using Chemical weapons against Kurds". While the second part can be seen as acceptably close, the first part is ... so way off that it is not even funny. Some translation there.

The English version seems to be more fitting, but I don't think that's translation, they've merely used different titles. In the article itself, the two titles are identical.

And this brings us back to the JP article... it states "Turkey hits PKK with chemical weapons". That is in no way near any the original article nor the English translation.. that is more than an accusation.. that is trying to state a fact that there is not. Pathetic partisan journalism

Yeah I don't like that either, they put it in apostrophes hence implying it is an accusation, the BBC does that all the time and I think it's wrong, but that implies nothing on the content of the article.

No I dont rule anything out

That's funny, a moment ago you have indeed ruled it out, saying that Turkey did not use chemical weapons.
You take your words back?

Well known by who? Conspiracy theorists? Do they have nukes too then? How about secret alien flying saucers?

Conspiracy theorists? Whatcha talking about? I'm quoting from Wikipedia here, Turkey has never declared having a chemical arsenal.

Hardly. Give us examples, and no you cant use Israel. Show us examples in say South America, or Asia!

Excuse me? Why do you say "and you can't use Israel"? Is there an explanation to this condition?

From the original article.



It states that Hans Baumnn, a German picture falsification expert, confirms the authenticity of the pictures. Google translate if you dont believe me. And I ask you this, Hans Baumann is an expert on what.. picture falsification or confirming that they are of dead PKK fighters that died of chemical weapons?

That is one expert, not experts.

First of all they do not imply in the article that he's the only guy they've asked, he's the only one whose opinion they've presented. Hence the experts.

Secondly the authentication confirms that the picture is indeed valid and that simply means that PKK members have indeed died from chemical weapons.
Der Spiegel also states that:

"German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons."

No because no country would subject it self to outside investigation, just like Israel refuse to accommodate an international investigation into the flotilla raid.

First of all I believe you were one of those calling for an international investigation on Israeli affairs.
Secondly the flotilla raid is indeed investigated in an international investigation, two of them really, and Israel is cooperating with the UN one - so there you have it, epic fail.