Turkey condemns house panel endorsement of Armenian 'genocide' resolution

[Ikari]

Read the thread before you respond.

I did. That's not a reason for why it's still relevant. Japan has it's own nation. What we did to Americans of Japanese decent in this country was horrible and one of the worst acts against our people we've ever committed. As it relates to this, all we're doing is saying that something in the past was genocide even though no one in the present had anything to do with it; and in fact it was a completely different government all together at the time. So it's pointless. How much other stuff has not been apologized for? The Crusades and Inquisitions? The British Empire? Americas actions? Has the fire bombing of Tokyo ever been apologized for? What about Dresden? Y'all want to sit here and nit pick on this one thing, claim it's still somehow relevant when there is no indication of modern Turkey looking to interfere militarily again (well for modern Turkey, it would be for the first time since the incident took place under the Ottoman Empire).

And if you want people treated like second class...look no further than Africa. There are tons of oppressed people there who have suffered under many peoples, including Europe. And what about India? They have a very alive caste system where there is the rich and then the very very poor, who are also treated second class. Do we get an apology from them or condemn that action?

 

[Khayembii Communique]

My posts are responding to your question of why it is still relevant today, and have nothing to do with whatever congress is doing. I thought that was obvious.

 

[kaya'08]

My posts are responding to your question of why it is still relevant today, and have nothing to do with whatever congress is doing. I thought that was obvious.

What isn't relevant to this entire situation are the politicians, who to be frank with you, should have nothing to do with dictating the past on there own terms.
Ironic that we allow politicians to decide what happened in the past rather than scholars who can base past events on factual sources rather than "what best suits the current foreign policy climate or our interests".

I think its wrong the existance of the Armenian genocide has been denied, and therefore history denied to us, because it suited the past administrations.

I think its wrong the Armenian genocide and therefore a piece of history has been made "actual" because the current administration didn't press hard enough.

I think its worse that both sides dispute what happened and that the actualizing of "the genocide" has not been brought about through proper debate by informed minds of all spectrum's. Politicians have no right to dictate what happened on the bases of what suits them.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Armenian Americans make up I believe the second most powerfull ethnic lobby group in the US ( after the Jewish lobby group)


They have been lobbying for this for years in congress and it has I believe generally blocked or countered by presidential opposition. As Obama I believe was supportive of calling for this resolution before becoming president, he did not mount the usual opposition to the resolution that typically was done by the presidents in the past.


A suprise overall, in that a president put a promise before pragmatism.


This in my opinion has nothing to do with Turkey wanting to join the EU, as the US in the past has been pushing for Turkey to be able to join the EU, with Germany and France being the most vocal in opposition, (not just for religous/racial issue). Economics has a great deal to do with it as well. To bring in Turkey or the Ukraine would cause the EU to provide subsidies to the large agricultural rural populations of both countries. Not to say racial and religous bigotry are not strong reason for the opposition

 

[kaya'08]

Armenian Americans make up I believe the second most powerfull ethnic lobby group in the US ( after the Jewish lobby group)


They have been lobbying for this for years in congress and it has I believe generally blocked or countered by presidential opposition. As Obama I believe was supportive of calling for this resolution before becoming president, he did not mount the usual opposition to the resolution that typically was done by the presidents in the past.


A suprise overall, in that a president put a promise before pragmatism.


This in my opinion has nothing to do with Turkey wanting to join the EU, as the US in the past has been pushing for Turkey to be able to join the EU, with Germany and France being the most vocal in opposition, (not just for religous/racial issue). Economics has a great deal to do with it as well. To bring in Turkey or the Ukraine would cause the EU to provide subsidies to the large agricultural rural populations of both countries. Not to say racial and religous bigotry are not strong reason for the opposition

If they accepted Greece, they can certainly not look twice at Turkey's own economic structure, which remained relatively unharmed during the economic downturn. Its called fiscal responsibility and debt accountability and Turkey has continued on a path of growth and profit even at the height of the downturn. Its going to need investments at first, but its geopolitical position and its strong military muscle is invaluable to European security and energy needs.
Also, racism isn't really a problem, as we already know Turks are not one colour and the ethnic term for Turk is basically non-existent. Im white, for starters, so was Ataturk.

Its RELIGIOUS discrimination which the EU is covering up under mere "economic/fiscal" concerns. Yeah right.

 

[earthworm]

Who cares what the U.S. thinks. I'd rather hear it from the UN under an international consensus.

Total agreement...
These atrocities are in the past, as is our slavery, and England's crimes..
No one is free from these, no-one.
Maybe the Eskimos.
Jesus says it best with "let him, who is free from sin, cast the first stone".

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

If they accepted Greece, they can certainly not look twice at Turkey's own economic structure, which remained relatively unharmed during the economic downturn. Its called fiscal responsibility and debt accountability and Turkey has continued on a path of growth and profit even at the height of the downturn. Its going to need investments at first, but its geopolitical position and its strong military muscle is invaluable to European security and energy needs.
Also, racism isn't really a problem, as we already know Turks are not one colour and the ethnic term for Turk is basically non-existent. Im white, for starters, so was Ataturk.

Its RELIGIOUS discrimination which the EU is covering up under mere "economic/fiscal" concerns. Yeah right.

Turkey's population is multiples that of Greece and i believe would be the second largest in the EU

Greece's GDP per capita is I believe multiples that of Turkey (meaning Turkey is far poorer a nation then Greece)

The EU under the Common Agricultural Policy would be required to provided a large amount of financial aid to Turkey's farmers.

Has Turkey made a lot of progress over the last 10 year economically, most definately. Has Turkey under the AKP made human rights advancements, been generally been far kinder to ethnic minorities (the Kurds as a people have faired far better, the PKK not so much).

So overall the concern about letting in another 70 million people into the EU who overall would be the among the poorest (economically) in the EU is a legit concern.

Lastly there is racism in the EU

As you know there are millions of Turks (Turkish nationals) who have been in Germany for decades and have had childern born in Germany who are not citizens (even their childern) and have little prospects of becoming citizens, all because they are generally Turkish, if they were Swedish the path for citizenship would have been far easier I believe.

Overall if Turkey just included the area around Istanbul and not Anatolia becoming part of the EU would be far more certain

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

and addition to why this may have passed this time



'Jewish lobby behind U.S. Armenia genocide vote' - Haaretz - Israel News

Jewish lobbyists contrived a U.S. congressional vote that labeled the World War One-era massacre of Armenians by Turkish forces as genocide, a London-based Arabic-language newspaper claimed on Saturday.

Pro-Israel lobbyists had previously backed Turkey on the issue ? but changed tack in retaliation for Turkish condemnation of Israel's policies in the Gaza Strip, the Al-Quds Al-Arabi daily said in an editorial, according to Israel Radio reports.

Israel and Turkey are traditional allies but ties took a downturn in 2009 when Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan condemned Israel's offensive in Gaza, in which some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed.

snip

The vote calls on President Barack Obama to ensure U.S. policy formally refers to the massacre as genocide, putting him in a tight spot.

In a telephone call with Turkish President Abdullah Gul on Wednesday, Obama emphasized his administration had urged lawmakers to consider the potential damage to efforts to normalize Armenian-Turkish ties, a senior administration official said.

At a news conference in Costa Rica on Thursday, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she and Obama, who both supported proposed Armenia genocide resolutions as presidential candidates, had changed their minds because they believed the drive to normalize relations between Turkey and Armenia was bearing fruit.

Turkey, a Muslim secular democracy that plays a vital role for U.S. interests from Iraq to Iran and in Afghanistan and the Middle East, accepts that many Armenians were killed by Ottoman forces but denies that up to 1.5 million died and that it amounted to genocide - a term employed by many Western historians and some foreign parliaments.

 

[ludahai]

Is it? Are we condemning Germany, Italy, or Japan for anything? Or is it just Turkey for some reason? Cause something that happened nearly 100 years ago and hasn't been repeated doesn't sound like something that is still relevant.

Other than the fact that Germany, Italy, and Japan have all acknowledged their WWII wrongdoings while Turkey still denies the existance of the attempted genocide?

 

[ludahai]

Should we condemn the Catholic Church for the Crusades?

The Catholic Church should be condemned for a counter-attack against centuries of Muslim aggression?

 

[ludahai]

I agree that this has something to do with Turkey joining the EU. The timing is just odd, even given the historical debate on it.

The people of modern Turkey should not have to suffer condemnation for what was done 100 years ago, no more than modern Germans should have to suffer for what happened in WW2. Can we please just move on? Everyone has screwed everyone else at some point and unless it happened in recent history (i.e. the past two generations) I don't think it's worth it.

Difference is: Germany has acknowledged the crimes of the past and the people know about it and, for the most part, disassociate themselves from it. This is NOT true of Turkey. Ankara consistently denies it ever happened.

 

[kaya'08]

Other than the fact that Germany, Italy, and Japan have all acknowledged their WWII wrongdoings while Turkey still denies the existance of the attempted genocide?

Scholars established this fact with hard evidence and debate and with very little dispute. The Armenian genocide hasn't received this attention yet from historians. Rather than dedicating resources to allow Scholars to debate and compare evidence, with in depth historical analysis, politicians in America think it OK to "vote" on history.
The Turkey-Armenian "restoration of diplomacy" accords would have set up an institution and open the archives of both nations to allow room for debate and a political consensus based on the evidence achieved by these scholars. The irresponsible ruling has piratically destroyed any chance of Turkey-Armenian diplomacy.

 

[kaya'08]

Turkey's population is multiples that of Greece and i believe would be the second largest in the EU

Greece's GDP per capita is I believe multiples that of Turkey (meaning Turkey is far poorer a nation then Greece)

The EU under the Common Agricultural Policy would be required to provided a large amount of financial aid to Turkey's farmers.

Has Turkey made a lot of progress over the last 10 year economically, most definately. Has Turkey under the AKP made human rights advancements, been generally been far kinder to ethnic minorities (the Kurds as a people have faired far better, the PKK not so much).

So overall the concern about letting in another 70 million people into the EU who overall would be the among the poorest (economically) in the EU is a legit concern.

Turkey will outstrip Greece in the next decade.
One must weigh other factors too. The Turkish economy has a huge potential which is now being used not to mention vast resources and access to massive energy reserves because of its geopolitical position. The EU will not secure its future if it intends to rely on Russia as an energy gateway, and will have no influence in regions of the world where potential threats are spawning constantly.

Lastly there is racism in the EU

As you know there are millions of Turks (Turkish nationals) who have been in Germany for decades and have had childern born in Germany who are not citizens (even their childern) and have little prospects of becoming citizens, all because they are generally Turkish, if they were Swedish the path for citizenship would have been far easier I believe.

Thats because of German immigration laws and the failure of the EU to assimilate. Thats multi-cultural experiments for you, i guess. Inter-EU members do have an easier path of citizenship.

 

[ludahai]

Scholars established this fact with hard evidence and debate and with very little dispute. The Armenian genocide hasn't received this attention yet from historians. Rather than dedicating resources to allow Scholars to debate and compare evidence, with in depth historical analysis, politicians in America think it OK to "vote" on history.
The Turkey-Armenian "restoration of diplomacy" accords would have set up an institution and open the archives of both nations to allow room for debate and a political consensus based on the evidence achieved by these scholars. The irresponsible ruling has piratically destroyed any chance of Turkey-Armenian diplomacy.

What "ruling" are you talking about? This was a vote by a committee in the U.S. Congress. This is something, by the way, that Candidate Obama promised to recognize as president and has now backtracked on.

Also, why does Congress have to "allow Scholars to debate and compare evidence?" Scholars can, and have, already done this -- though not with the detail and attention that occurred with World War II, this is definately true.

However, don't you think the repeated viceral reaction Turkey has to this every time it is brought up tends to point out that there IS guilt and they want to try to cloud this and hide behind it with rhetoric? Turkey's repeated reactions is akin to those who are guilty of past crimes yet repeatedly deny, deny, deny. Turkey has as much to do with the constant suspicions as anyone else. Furthermore, most people outside the Islamic world realize that something untoward went on in the dying days of the Ottoman state.

 

[Andalublue]

What the hell do you mean "not until now"? It's been an issue since it happened. And I already explained why it is still a relevant issue today, which you never responded to.

Many ethnic minority groups in almost every country in the World are subjected to discriminatory action by the state or by elements of the wider society. I have a couple of good Armenian friends living in Istanbul. Talking to them about this issue is difficult because on the one hand they want the Turkish state to recognise the magnitude of what took place, which it seems it can't do. On the other hand they don't wish resurrect inter-communal sectarianism which is largely a thing of the past.

The semantics of the use of the word 'genocide' detracts from the task of building a democratic and pluralistic Turkey and Armenia. Playing a 100 year old blame game does not help Turkish democracy or Armenian national development - something desperately needed.

 

[kaya'08]

What "ruling" are you talking about? This was a vote by a committee in the U.S. Congress. This is something, by the way, that Candidate Obama promised to recognize as president and has now backtracked on.

Ruling, vote, whatever. Its politicians choosing history, either way. Obama should have promised to support the Armenian-Turkish protocols which would have created an institution with access to archives in Turkey and Armenia, something Obama does not have, to create a certain study on the accounts and events of 1915.

Also, why does Congress have to "allow Scholars to debate and compare evidence?" Scholars can, and have, already done this -- though not with the detail and attention that occurred with World War II, this is definately true.

No they haven't. Armenian archives remain closed from the public and it is only very recently Turkey opened there's. A dedicated study containing members of both countries need to take place to accurately pin point EXACTLY what happened.
I think it did happen, yes. 1.5 million people dont just go 'missing'. But i also think its not as black and white as the world lets on.

However, don't you think the repeated viceral reaction Turkey has to this every time it is brought up tends to point out that there IS guilt and they want to try to cloud this and hide behind it with rhetoric? Turkey's repeated reactions is akin to those who are guilty of past crimes yet repeatedly deny, deny, deny.

I see what your saying but that's not really the case.
There is in atmosphere in Turkey which genuinely believes the account didn't take place.
When a vote is happening in a foreign country to determine an event they do not believe should be subject to political vote, an event they believe didnt take place exactly how it is said to have taken place, it certainly arouses some anger. Not denial from "guilt".
They believe those numbers of Armenian's went missing, yes, but not through the actions of soldiers, but through the harsh conditions of the Caucasus when they where extradited and through conflict with soldiers in which an equal amount of Ottoman soldiers where also killed (and yes, there are A LOT of missing soldiers unaccounted for).
They believe it was part of a conflict, not the deliberate termination of millions of helpless Armenian folk.