Trump's Trade War

[Luckyone]

Fundamental flaw is you assigning blame for a trade war on trump. He didnt start it. He is fighting against it.

We as a nation are not obligated to fold our hand just to satisfy dome imaginary moral standard set by whomever. We have a right to expect and demand reciproted value in our exchanges.

Anyone on the left please explain to me what's wrong with that concept or his execution of it because for the life of me I'm not understanding what the complaint is.

What is the lurking fear your trying to dissuade our nation from experiencing?

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Like everything is life there is what is right and there is what will work. Trump is fighting the right and wrong of what China has been doing for decades but in the process he is destroying what has been working for our farmers and our American Public for many years. This is a problem that has existed for many Presidents and it has not been able to be solved.

The basic problem that Trump is facing is that he is fighting China with the factors he knows have worked for him in the past but he does not understand that China is fighting this war on a completely different level, meaning that Trump's tactics are not likely to end up being successful.

Trump believes that money is God and that it is the basis for all decisions but in China, money is secondary. For them it is all about face, it is about making a statement about their dominance in the world, and fighting them with weapons that they do not respect all that much is not likely to be successful.

Perhaps you will understand the following analogy. It is like rational people trying to convince Trump supporters that Trump is bad news. They just don't see it and will not respond to facts and figures. The same is happening with China. China will not respond positively to a money fight.

I do not know what the answer is and certainly none of the past Presidents did either but I do believe that what Trump is trying to do is even worse, given that he may be awakening a giant that is more likely to react negatively than positively and since money is important to us, they have a way to hurt us more than we have a way to hurt them.

 

[Helix]

but Hillary's emails, and Obama something.

 

[Greenbeard]

Trade wars are good, and easy to win!

 

[Geoist]

He's just using a term the useful idiots can understand.

Hey, don't insult the Trumpbase like that...

 

[Geoist]

I've seen you make this stupid argument at least twice now, and you have probably committed this vapidity even more if I have run across that many times myself.

Do you know, have any idea, what an American conservative is? One who harkens back to our founding values, our precious heritage and, probably most importantly, our Original Constitution.

Have ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER what the 5th Amendment states very clearly? Eminent domain, bro.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

That is the very definition of the concept.

Chaw on that a while.

I know what the Constitution says. I have read it a thousand times. Despite what the Constitution says, conservatives, for years, have rightfully attacked the abuse of eminent domain, whether it be abused for government use or private use. They support it for something that is a complete waste of time, labor, resources, and taxpayer dollars. They support a monument to Trump the Narcissist. Even if you believe the stupid wall was worth potentially kicking thousands of people off their land, you support a president who has been very vocal about using it for the benefit of private business. It is hypocrisy to the highest degree.

 

[trouble13]

I've been pretty clear I think the horse is out of the barn, regarding the global economy


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So the left is allowed to change their position because of different circumstances but the right is not?

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[trouble13]

Like everything is life there is what is right and there is what will work. Trump is fighting the right and wrong of what China has been doing for decades but in the process he is destroying what has been working for our farmers and our American Public for many years. This is a problem that has existed for many Presidents and it has not been able to be solved.

The basic problem that Trump is facing is that he is fighting China with the factors he knows have worked for him in the past but he does not understand that China is fighting this war on a completely different level, meaning that Trump's tactics are not likely to end up being successful.

Trump believes that money is God and that it is the basis for all decisions but in China, money is secondary. For them it is all about face, it is about making a statement about their dominance in the world, and fighting them with weapons that they do not respect all that much is not likely to be successful.

Perhaps you will understand the following analogy. It is like rational people trying to convince Trump supporters that Trump is bad news. They just don't see it and will not respond to facts and figures. The same is happening with China. China will not respond positively to a money fight.

I do not know what the answer is and certainly none of the past Presidents did either but I do believe that what Trump is trying to do is even worse, given that he may be awakening a giant that is more likely to react negatively than positively and since money is important to us, they have a way to hurt us more than we have a way to hurt them.

If you dont think China values money you are kidding yourself.

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[Mycroft]

Your example is only one example and does not explain the multitude of tariffs he kept wanting to apply to Chinese imports. He kept threatening them (and initiated billions of dollars worth already) because China hit back against his tariffs with tariffs of their own. AKA, a trade war.

That's part of the "And on it goes."

For years Trump has talked about trade deficits. That has been what his goal has been all along, to reduce trade deficits. What causes trade deficits? When one country exports less than it imports. We have a trade deficit with China because we import much more from them than they import from us. Thus, the 2nd component of the given definition "this type of conflict usually arises because the nations involved are trying to improve imports or exports for its own country".

Trump is using other tactics, as well. Increasing manufacturing in the US is one. That will result in less buying from other countries, including China. Negotiating increased purchases by China of US goods. That reduces trade deficits with China. Making trade deals with other countries that compete with China.

He isn't using the tariffs to reduce deficits. He's using them to motivate China to make trade deals and change their behavior.

I realize you're still going to pretend that you're right, but you're just not.

I don't have to "pretend" I'm right. I make my contentions...you attempt to dispute them. Now, it seems when you fail to dispute them you trot out this "pretend" nonsense.

Moving on...

 

[Bullseye]

Anybody mention China has recently eased tariff on 700 more products? This is the third time this year that China has done so. And, yes, these reductions are labeled as "temporary". But that's how "wars" go. You don't declare war one day and sign a ceasefire the next.

 

[Luckyone]

If you dont think China values money you are kidding yourself.

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I did not say they don't value money, I said it is not their first concern. I say this from the experience of a good friend of mine that has been living in China for the past 20 years.

Just think of the fact that people in the orient are willing to perform Harakiri on themselves for lack of face. Can you see Trump doing that? In fact, can you see Trump even accepting responsability for anything?

The Chinese are willing to starve themselves to save face. Trump has no understanding of that and is the reason his tactics will fail on them.

 

[Winston]

So the left is allowed to change their position because of different circumstances but the right is not?

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It's not so simple. The right says they care about free trade and markets but supporting tariffs makes that seem odd.

As for the left, I don't think Democrats have supported protectionism in a long time. NAFTA was signed by Bill Clinton.

However, the actual left, I think they do support tariffs. But, probably not the way Trump has applied them.


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[trouble13]

I did not say they don't value money, I said it is not their first concern. I say this from the experience of a good friend of mine that has been living in China for the past 20 years.

Just think of the fact that people in the orient are willing to perform Harakiri on themselves for lack of face. Can you see Trump doing that? In fact, can you see Trump even accepting responsability for anything?

The Chinese are willing to starve themselves to save face. Trump has no understanding of that and is the reason his tactics will fail on them.

Maybe your right, time will tell. What I dont understand is advocating for more of the same old failed policy.

I also do not see how negotiating for a balance of value received and given between our two nations is viewed as losing face.

While we are te topic of how China views its honor and losing face. How honorable is it to steal other nations intellectual property? Seems to me they are already putting money ahead of honor.

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[trouble13]

It's not so simple. The right says they care about free trade and markets but supporting tariffs makes that seem odd.

As for the left, I don't think Democrats have supported protectionism in a long time. NAFTA was signed by Bill Clinton.

However, the actual left, I think they do support tariffs. But, probably not the way Trump has applied them.


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Free trade works when all things are equal. Things are not equal between us and other nations. We treat our workers much better than they do theirs and our companies are more regulated than theirs. Tariffs provide a counterbalance to those inequities.

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[Grand Mal]

The Democratic Party might be right and all intellectual property rights needs to be erased and all American manufacturing should be eliminated because child slave labor produces lower cost products - which Americans can buy with their government welfare checks with an endless supply of debt-money loaned by China that the USA pays interest on by borrowing that too from China.

In this way, no American has to work any dangerous manufacturing job again. Foreign slave will do that for us - but since it is in another country it isn't like the technically are our slaves. The Democratic Party is always very clever in endless ways to make other people their slaves - but with technical legal deniability.

Needs a lot of work still. Polish up the grammar and broaden the scope. You've become hung up on the 'slave' thing- it's leading you even further from believability. You might want to keep working the illegal immigration angle too, it's trending.
Bring it back when you've shined it up and we can discuss where else you should post it.

 

[Airyaman]

Free trade works when all things are equal. Things are not equal between us and other nations. We treat our workers much better than they do theirs and our companies are more regulated than theirs. Tariffs provide a counterbalance to those inequities.

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How so? You do realize that the tariffs are paid by the American companies purchasing the goods or services, right?

 

[Luckyone]

Maybe your right, time will tell. What I dont understand is advocating for more of the same old failed policy.

I also do not see how negotiating for a balance of value received and given between our two nations is viewed as losing face.

While we are te topic of how China views its honor and losing face. How honorable is it to steal other nations intellectual property? Seems to me they are already putting money ahead of honor.

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I agree with you that China is not doing the right thing, but then neither is Putin, Kim Jong-un, Erdegan, Dutarte doing the right thing either and I don't see Trump doing anything to them. I also agree that something needs to be done. By the same token, discussing this problem with knowledgeable people to come up with possible solutions is the best way, even though up to now no solutions have yet been found. Sometimes nothing can be done. After all, we have to adapt to what Putin, Kim Jong-un, etc are doing and "live with it".

Nonetheless, trying all options is not a solution either since some of those options make things worse and no one wants things to get worse.

 

[Luckyone]

Maybe your right, time will tell. What I dont understand is advocating for more of the same old failed policy.

I also do not see how negotiating for a balance of value received and given between our two nations is viewed as losing face.

While we are te topic of how China views its honor and losing face. How honorable is it to steal other nations intellectual property? Seems to me they are already putting money ahead of honor.

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Your own answer shows the problem in clear view. You are applying your own values to China's thinking. China is more interested in showing they are the #1 nation in the world and can do what they want than anything that has to do with money. Perfect example is Hitler. He believed the Jews were lesser people and they had to be killed. Do you think that sanctions of money on them would have made any difference to their thinking?

Ultimately, we may have to face China an an enemy and fight them but Tariffs are not going to work. They will hurt us more because money is our primary concern but that is not the case with China. This is why we need someone in the White House with a brain. Trump does not have the tools to fight a smart fight. He is a bully and bullying the Chinese is the worst option. It is like fighting Hitler by saying he is failing human rights. He would just laugh you out of the room.

 

[Bullseye]

Your own answer shows the problem in clear view. You are applying your own values to China's thinking. China is more interested in showing they are the #1 nation in the world and can do what they want than anything that has to do with money. Perfect example is Hitler. He believed the Jews were lesser people and they had to be killed. Do you think that sanctions of money on them would have made any difference?

Ultimately, we may have to face China an an enemy and fight them but Tariffs are not going to work. They will hurt us more because money is our primary concern but that is not the case with China. This is why we need someone in the White House with a brain. Trump does not have the tools to fight a smart fight. He is a bully and bullying the Chinese is the worst option. It is like fighting Hitler by saying he is failing human rights. He would just laugh you out of the room.

Except China lifted tariffs on some 700 items just the other day, the third time this year they've done so. So that kinda shoots down your "tariffs are not going to work" thesis. The fact they're doing that shows they're being effective. Yeah, there's still a long way to go but they are responding.

I'm not sure what you propose in dealing with China beyond trade. You bluster a lot about what won't work, so what specifically do you think WOULD? Note the word "specific".


Your problem is no matter what action Trump takes you're spring-loaded to just to the opposite side, no ifs, ands, or buts. You seem to be reasonably intelligent except when it comes to Trump, then all bets are off.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

I know what the Constitution says. I have read it a thousand times. Despite what the Constitution says, conservatives, for years, have rightfully attacked the abuse of eminent domain, whether it be abused for government use or private use. They support it for something that is a complete waste of time, labor, resources, and taxpayer dollars. They support a monument to Trump the Narcissist. Even if you believe the stupid wall was worth potentially kicking thousands of people off their land, you support a president who has been very vocal about using it for the benefit of private business. It is hypocrisy to the highest degree.

Yeah yeah yeah, busted, caught with your pants down, we both know it.

This is no abuse, this is how the concept was intended. Nothing intended for later private business use but intended for the protection of ALL the citizens of the USA.

You hate Trump, that is all that filters through this incoherent liberal melange of garbage you spew here on the topic. There is no potential kicking out of thousands off their lands, while the border walls are potentially very tall they are usually not exceedingly wide. If your property were that thin to begin with, well you didn't have much to save and you will be compensated properly, as per the 5th, then can purchase elsewhere.

Much as when they lay down a new major road in a city, [ for example when they built the East-West Expressway in Orlando] some individual owners will no doubt be dissatisfied, but most will be pleased with the just compensation ... and protecting all the citizens is the priority.

Speaking of narcissism, this is nowhere near the **** ing with and ****ing up 17% of our entire economy simply ruining our semi-free enterprise health care system. This is chump change comparatively.


The only thing that slenderfella ever did that was halfway lasting, that may have a chance to remain as his legacy [ well, besides being the total catastrophe that ushered in a President Trump ], will be his off the cuff remark to House Republicans,

“Elections have consequences,” he told then number two Republican Rep. Eric Cantor. “And at the end of the day, I won. So I think on that one I trump you.”

Perfect symmetry with that last wrap up detail... This time we won and on this one Trump trumped you.

MAGA Amen.

 

[Airyaman]

Damn useful idiots...

World Economy Is Set to Feel the Delayed Trade War Pain in 2019

Damn, thought it was the Ds taking the House!

Financial markets have already taken a hit. Bank of America Merrill Lynch estimates that the trade war news has accounted for a net drop of 6 percent in the S&P 500 this year.

Recent data underscore concerns that trade will be a drag on American growth next year. U.S. consumers are feeling the least optimistic about the future economy in a year, while small business optimism about economic improvement fell to a two-year low and companies expect smaller profit gains in 2019.

 

[trouble13]

I agree with you that China is not doing the right thing, but then neither is Putin, Kim Jong-un, Erdegan, Dutarte doing the right thing either and I don't see Trump doing anything to them. I also agree that something needs to be done. By the same token, discussing this problem with knowledgeable people to come up with possible solutions is the best way, even though up to now no solutions have yet been found. Sometimes nothing can be done. After all, we have to adapt to what Putin, Kim Jong-un, etc are doing and "live with it".

Nonetheless, trying all options is not a solution either since some of those options make things worse and no one wants things to get worse.

I'm glad we can see common ground. I agree with you as well in your skepticism of the current administration's approach. I am by no means an expert on this topic. Maybe trumps attempts will set us back and maybe they will advance our position. I simply dont know. I do know that he has won the right to try.

I'm not a big fan wr how he is doing it by circumventing congress. I think that's wrong but I also think there is a strong argument that can be made as being necessary.

I think the only thing I have s problem with your post is you comparing our relationships with other nations as some kind of rule to judge him upon. I believe each is a custom situtation that should be looked at individually.

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[trouble13]

First off merry Christmas or happy holidays. Whichever you prefer.

2nd thanks for being more willing than most to put an honest conversation ahead of insults. I appreciate that.

Your own answer shows the problem in clear view. You are applying your own values to China's thinking.

I disagree and will cover why further down

China is more interested in showing they are the #1 nation in the world and can do what they want than anything that has to do with money.

Try achieving that goal without economic strength

Perfect example is Hitler. He believed the Jews were lesser people and they had to be killed. Do you think that sanctions of money on them would have made any difference to their thinking?

Your cart goes off the rails here. There is nazi comparison. Chinas aspirations are different.

I have to stop here tap talk glitch kicked in and I'm litterally typing on a blank screen

Ultimately, we may have to face China an an enemy and fight them but Tariffs are not going to work. They will hurt us more because money is our primary concern but that is not the case with China. This is why we need someone in the White House with a brain. Trump does not have the tools to fight a smart fight. He is a bully and bullying the Chinese is the worst option. It is like fighting Hitler by saying he is failing human rights. He would just laugh you out of the room.
[/QUOTE]



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[trouble13]

Ultimately, we may have to face China an an enemy and fight them but Tariffs are not going to work. They will hurt us more because money is our primary concern but that is not the case with China. This is why we need someone in the White House with a brain. Trump does not have the tools to fight a smart fight. He is a bully and bullying the Chinese is the worst option. It is like fighting Hitler by saying he is failing human rights. He would just laugh you out of the room.

Explain what you mean. You believe s military conflict from China is coming?


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[Airyaman]

So where is the money coming from to pay farm welfare? I suppose the government could pay for their welfare out of tariff revenues, but wouldn't that be considered redistribution of wealth?

 

[Luckyone]

Explain what you mean. You believe s military conflict from China is coming?


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No, but that may be the only solution to the trade inequalities in the long run