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Trump's Border Issue from a Christian's Standpoint

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tosca1

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So many non-believers had thrown the teachings of Christ towards those Christians who support Donald Trump, particularly on the issue regarding the borders between Mexico and the USA. Unfortunately, some brothers and sisters in Christ, had joined that choir.

I can only speak for myself. let me start with this:



1 Corinthians 14:

33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints,



Immigration laws are established for a reason. What country does not have its own laws regarding foreigners to its land?


Can you imagine how it'll be like if a country's laws are not respected at all, especially by foreigners?

Do you envision what could happen?



Surely you understand why a nation has its immigration laws. LAWS. We are talking about laws!


As Aristotle himself had said: The law is reason, free from passion.



What happens if instead of using reason, the laws are based on passion?

If you scrap the laws altogether, do you imagine there will be equality at all among the treatment of foreigners if we react with
our passion instead of reason?

Do you think just because one foreigner is a woman, or a child.....that she therefore should be given the preferential treatment - over others -to be allowed in?




The emperor's duty is to his nation. He has to judge with fairness (according to God).


Without immigration laws to be followed, there wouldn't be any fairness.

Decisions can be made at whim, after all....without laws, what required rules are there to be followed?


You end up with confusions! You think there'll be peace?





So....we've come full circle here:


For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
 
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"What happens if instead of using reason, the laws are based on passion?"

Passion is emotion which has an affect on most decisions humans make, though including "reason". So, "what happens" is what we have now. We already make law based on emotion. You get what you've got.

"Do you think just because one foreigner is a woman, or a child.....that she therefore should be given the preferential treatment - over others -to be allowed in?"

Yes, depending on what is the "preferential" treatment. You're not saying just exactly what treatment to which you object.

"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

Regardless of what you say is so, we're not. In Christian religious terms, we are confused and at war as long as we are in the crucible of flesh.
 

You're referring to the kind of trial we now see on media! Some people are now pre-judged as guilty without the presumption of innocence -
merely by accusations!

Some loose their jobs....and even when vindicated (like, proven innocent) - the damage to their reputation/livelihood has already been done!
Thus there is a commandment against slander!
That's the kind of climate we now see - thanks to our emotions.





To be able to jump the line! To not have to go through the normal process!




"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

Regardless of what you say is so, we're not.
Click to expand...

No. we're not God. We need God.





In Christian religious terms, we are confused and at war as long as we are in the crucible of flesh.
Click to expand...

That's only because a nation had separated itself from God.

It's not that we are confused. We are weak, and prone to sin.
 
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“You're referring to the kind of trial we now see on media! Some people are now pre-judged as guilty without the presumption of innocence -
merely by accusations!”

I’m referring to everything, not just, but certainly including, what you say.

“Some loose their jobs....and even when vindicated (like, proven innocent) - the damage to their reputation/livelihood has already been done!
Thus there is a commandment against slander!"

"That's the kind of climate we now see - thanks to our emotions.”

Thanks to “our emotions”, we have concocted religious commandments that include reasoning.

“To be able to jump the line! To not have to go through the normal process!”

You’re not answering my question. What preferential treatment are women and/or children getting that you believe they should not get? Please be specific. You’ve not even provided evidence that they are getting any definitional treatment of preference.

“No. we're not God. We need God.”

Not exactly what I meant and should have been worded better. But clarified by my sentence that followed, as you quoted “In Christian religious terms, we are confused and at war as long as we are in the crucible of flesh.” to give your reply:

“That's only because a nation had separated itself from God.”

As a secular nation, we are by decree of our constitution separate from God/religion. Do you think the Constitution should be changed to reflect we are a nation ruled by religion and not a secular govt? Or what?

“It's not that we are confused. We are weak, and prone to sin.”

Right. We’re confused because we’re weak. Whatever. We’ve been in some form of armed conflict in every year of our existence except for 11 yrs., so we are prone to war, not peace.
We’re weak (confused, etc.) and prone to sin (war, etc.) because, in terms of the Christian religion, we are in the crucible of flesh. Or do you disagree and why?
 
Bearing false witness is an express sin; it must be worse from an public office.

There is no express social Power over the whole and entire concept of Immigration in our federal Constitution.

if only,

there were Good Christians to be found in modern times.
 
There is no religious dogmatic excuse for ripping children from parents, sticking them in cages, denying them basic necessities and losing them by the thousands in a system ill prepared to execute a disgusting policy from an unthinking, unfeeling, white nationalist administration.

Any apologetics supposed "christians" want to offer is just weasely justifications for their own paranoia and bigotry.
 
Genesis 12:1 – The call of Abram: “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.”

Genesis 12:10 – “Now there was a famine in the land. So Abram went down to Egypt to reside there as an alien, for the famine was severe in the land.”

Genesis 19 – Lot takes his family and flees Sodom.

Genesis 23 – Abraham is a stranger and an alien in the land of Canaan.

Genesis 46:1-7 – Jacob moves his family to Egypt to escape the famine and reunite with Joseph.

Exodus 12:49 and Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”

Exodus 22:21 – Moses gives God’s law: “You shall not wrong or oppress an alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.”

Leviticus 19:9-10 and 23:22 – Moses gives God’s law: “You shall not strip your vineyards bare…leave them for the poor and the alien.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Deuteronomy 1:16 – “Give the members of your community a fair hearing, and judge rightly between one person and another, whether citizen or resident alien.

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”
Deuteronomy 24:17-18 – “You shall not deprive a resident alien...of justice.”

Deuteronomy 27:19 – “Cursed be anyone who deprives the alien…of justice.”

Jeremiah 7:5-7 – “If you do not oppress the alien…then I will dwell with you in this place…”

Ezekiel 47:21-22 – The aliens shall be to you as citizens, and shall also be allotted an inheritance.

Zechariah 7:8-10 – Do no oppress the alien.

James 2:14-17 – “What good is it…if you say you have faith but do not have works?”

Seems God was quite the immigrants right's activist....so, you are wrong and so is Trump
 

They show women and children on tv! Like as if it's all about genders and ages.
They're being used for politicking! Thus, they should be allowed in because of gender and age!






How is it a secular nation when you've got "In God We Trust," as your motto?


There is a reason why religion isn't prominent in the Constitution - but I don't think that means the nation is not meant
to be religious.


Constitutional Topic: The Constitution and Religion - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net






I posted after that. I agreed with you that we are confused.
 
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:roll:


God refers to

foreigners living among you!

That's the context about aliens and foreigners!




Foreigners living with you now, are not oppressed! They have basically the same rights that you do.


What does the Bible say about illegal immigration? | GotQuestions.org
 
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living among you doesn't refer to legal status....it refers to anyone born in another land than you...including illegal immigrants....so it says exactly what I quoted and even what I didn't quote about love thy neighbor as thyself.
 

Is the right wing merely, morally challenged?
 

I would agree it is a bit dubious for "non-believers" to weaponize the teachings of the Bible in a political debate over Immigration, however it is response to the dubious nature of believers deciding which Christian principles apply to a given political debate and when they can be discarded.

The real reason these debates end up off the rails so often is we as humans come up with other constructs that having nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus or teachings of Christianity from the Bible from Old Testament to New.

The best example that we can come up with is "God and Country," that ideology has loosely inferred references from Biblical text but no where in those teachings are the establishment of national boundaries as a reason to discard Christian principles of peace, love, acceptance, helping the poor, accepting of others, etc. We have too many Biblical references that have more direct lessons in the acceptance of foreigners, immigrants, and refugees. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalm, Ecclesiastes, Jeremiah, Matthew, Luke, Romans, Corinthians, Hebrews, James, and all have dozens of references to an ideology that nothing but acceptance and hospitality.

The nature of the argument from "non-believers" is all of this text that is followed only when convenient to do so where at no time did Jesus mention such qualifiers of convenience as acceptance to heaven.

It is also easy to argue with plenty of text that Jesus was all about crossing social circles locally up to national boundaries since at the time the whole area was under Roman rule. Speaking and teaching to a tax collector, or the adulterer, or a prostitute because he did not believe in different standards for those he spoke to. He kept speaking of generosity, forgiveness, love, tolerance, and humanity. At no time did Jesus say "help and love those that should be helped and loved... so long as they show a passport and not jump a fence." It is also all to easy to offer that Jesus intentionally crossed ethnic *and* religious barriers suggesting looking outward in total opposite to western Nationalism themes.

So when we get Michele Bachmann saying "He is highly biblical, and I would say to your listeners, we will in all likelihood never see a more godly, biblical president again in our lifetime" when talking about Trump we have every reason to explore that it is really believers weaponizing the teachings of Jesus and the Bible in a way that supports their political ideological narrative. Including how that ideology tends to look at Immigration. Then you get Rick Perry doubling down on the whole thing saying Trump was chosen by God to be President it drives the point home on who is really weaponizing belief as a whole.

Even as an agnostic who has studied the Bible at the college level (as well as the other branches of the Abrahamic Religions, and other Bronze Age systems of belief) what does not exist in Christian Scripture is ignoring the teachings of Jesus in favor of increasing restrictive National laws on handling foreigners. While you can say respect for Law did exist in some contexts what that did not do was create an out to come up with Law that was against Christian values.

That is the crux of the issue, the weaponization of both Christian values and National Law as a means to claim "God and Country." And that is happening far more often with so called Christians than it is with "non-believers." So long as that continues expect Atheists and Agnostics to call out the hypocrisy and utter disrespect for what Jesus was really trying to teach.
 
All Christians should be allowed in,
If they can produce a notarized letter from God himself.
In some situations from Jesus is OK. But not Hay-sues.
 
tosca1 said:
Can you imagine how it'll be like if a country's laws are not respected at all, especially by foreigners?

Do you envision what could happen?
Click to expand...

Yes, I can imagine it.

It has already happened.

*****

The latest excuse being used by activists: People from country X have a "moral right" to cross into the Southwest states because that land was once owned by country X.

The war over immigration is over. The United States has lost.
 
ClaraD said:
living among you doesn't refer to legal status....it refers to anyone born in another land than you...including illegal immigrants....so it says exactly what I quoted and even what I didn't quote about love thy neighbor as thyself.
Click to expand...
:roll:

You've got lots of neighbors to love, AND PROTECT!

Think of all the immigrants already living with you,who are obediently following the proper procedures to get their families to join them in the USA. They've been waiting patiently in line.
A ruler or judge, is required by God to exercise FAIRNESS!


It isn't righteous to treat those who observe immigration laws unfairly by having illegals to jump ahead of the line.
You don't repay those who respect your laws by.......... kicking them in the teeth!
What kind of love is that?

Lol. To a lot of these anti-Trumpers, these illegals are nothing but pawns in their agenda! Let's not kid ourselves here.
They'r taking the Bible out of context to boot, to try to get to the Evangelicals who support Trump!

It isn't righteous to use people - especially those who are desperate by giving them false hope, on top of
endangering them in the process!




Bottom line:

we are required by God to respect and bow down to authority - as explained.
Respect the laws of the nation(s).
 
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many can be taken as slaves.
 

I gave verses and rational articles to explain how certain verses are being taken out of context.
They're trying to appeal to........... or attempting to shame Evangelicals who support Trump.


Evangelicals who truly read and studied their Bible can see to all that. :shrug:
 

Yes, support by so-called Christians of Trump's draconian border policies has exposed the hypocrisy of Christians. Good job.

Mashmont said:
I don't need to list any such thing. There have been countless statements that God doesn't exist. Everyone has seen them Please don't cower away like that.
Click to expand...

'Impeach Trump for This': Video Shows Final Hours of Teen's Horrible Death in US Immigration Detention Center | Common Dreams News

After all, allowing a 16-year-old boy to die is exactly what we non-Christians would expect from US Christians.
 
calamity said:
Yes, support by so-called Christians of Trump's draconian border policies has exposed the hypocrisy of Christians. Good job.
Click to expand...

is the OP trying to convince us or himself that it's okay to be a Christian and support Trump?
 
CaughtInThe said:
is the OP trying to convince us or himself that it's okay to be a Christian and support Trump?
Click to expand...

Probably "B" but hiding behind "A" to avoid seeing the reflection in the mirror.
 



“They show women and children on tv! Like as if it's all about genders and ages.
They're being used for politicking! Thus, they should be allowed in because of gender and age!”

And because of what you say, are they being allowed in because of gender and age? What is your proof? Back up your word.

‘How is it a secular nation when you've got "In God We Trust," as your motto?’

Because it’s in our Constitution and we are not governed by motto.

“There is a reason why religion isn't prominent in the Constitution - but I don't think that means the nation is not meant
to be religious.”

True. The people can be, and mostly are, religious. The people, though, are not to be ruled by religion.

“I posted after that. I agreed with you that we are confused.”

My point was to do with weakness. What you said is that we are confused because we are weak. I said that we are, in turn, weak because we, being human, are of flesh and thus, being human, naturally prone to sin. Sin is of our nature as God made us. You did not agree or disagree with that. We sin because God made us of sin, according to the Christian religion.
 
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