Trump's Attitude Toward Members of the Armed Forces

[LetsGoBrandon]

President Trump didn't really have anything to do with the Mission Act though. It passed both the House and the Senate with an overwhelming supermajority, so the President couldn't have stopped it even if he wanted to. Signing the bill was an expedient formality that benefitted him politically. He had no hand in writing it. He took no action to fight on behalf of veterans. All he did with regard to the Mission Act was to sign a bill that was already going to become law no matter what he did. How does that tell you anything about his character?

An action that does tell you something about his character is that he told the American people that Mexico would pay for the wall but then stole 3.6 Billion dollars from the military to pay for it instead.

Another indication of his character with regard to the military is the scores of Retired military leaders that renounced him.

Using your logic, Obama had little or nothing to do with getting your party's beloved Obamacare passed.....after all, it passed congress and he merely signed it into law, huh? Your problem is that you are attempting spin despite your ignorance of Trump's part in getting the Mission Act passed. While many including members of congress and President Trump deserve credit for getting the Mission Act across the finish line. he campaigned hard for meaningful reform of the VA including the Mission Act . And once again, Trump never claimed that Mexico was simply going to write a check for the cost of the Border Wall. They are in fact paying for it. And the funds that you bleat that he stole from the military were more then replaced with additional funding for the military. Your real objection to the wall is that you favor mass illegal immigration for the sake of your party ultimately using it to change the voting demographics in their favor.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Using your logic, Obama had little or nothing to do with getting your party's beloved Obamacare passed.....after all, it passed Congress and he merely signed it into law, huh? Your problem is that you are attempting spin despite your ignorance of Trump's part in getting the Mission Act passed. While many including members of Congress and President Trump deserve credit for getting the Mission Act across the finish line. he campaigned hard for meaningful reform of the VA including the Mission Act . And once again, Trump never claimed that Mexico was simply going to write a check for the cost of the Border Wall. They are in fact paying for it. And the funds that you bleat that he stole from the military were more then replaced with additional funding for the military. Your real objection to the wall is that you favor mass illegal immigration for the sake of your party ultimately using it to change the voting demographics in their favor.

Your assumption that I am part of the Democratic party is incorrect.

ACA is a good example to highlight the differences I am talking about though. Obamacare was based on a proposal that Obama submitted to Congress on Feb 24, 2009.

The Mission Act, by contrast, was not initially proposed by President Trump. It was proposed by John McCain. The very same John McCain that Trump called a "loser". The very same John McCain of whom Trump said "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero 'cause he was captured. I like people who weren't captured ok?" The very same John McCain who you now seem happy to throw under the bus.

Furthermore, Obama could have stopped ACA. It passed the House by a narrow 220–215 vote, and it passed the Senate by a 60-39 vote, still well shy of a supermajority. So if Obama didn't like the bill, it was in within his power to veto it. So signing it into law, in that case, was meaningful participation in its creation.

The Mission Act, by contrast, passed in the House with an overwhelming, bipartisan 347 - 70 vote, and then passed the Senate with an overwhelming, bipartisan 92 - 5 vote. So if Trump didn't like the bill, there wasn't anything he could do about it, because a supermajority in both houses would override a Presidential veto anyway. So signing it didn't have any meaningful effect on it passing.


Do you find it ironic that the bill you gave as an example of President Trump's regard for the military was originally conceived by a veteran who he literally called a "loser" and "not a hero"?

 

[Casca XV]

There has been much debate around whether President Trump called Marines buried in Aisne-Marne American Cemetery "losers and suckers." The crux of this issue for most people seems to center around the reliability of anonymous sources, whether Fox news confirmed key aspects of the story, how many firsthand accounts there are of people hearing the President NOT say those things, etc.

None of that is what this post is about. I'm not terribly interested in whether or not President Trump said those particular things on that particular occasion. If it is a lie, it is a believable one because of the kernal of truth behind it.

What I do know is that he said this: "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero 'cause he was captured. I like people who weren't captured ok?"

Many would like to pretend that this is an insult specifically and exclusively to John McCain, but it is not. It is an insult to every US POW that the Commander in Chief only likes the people who weren't captured.

It is not hard to understand his reasoning here. As he says elsewhere on this same occasion, "I don't like losers." This is telling of his winners/losers worldview, and consistent with what he has said and done long before becoming president, and continuing through his presidency.

He likes the soldiers that go to the place, kill the bad guys, and then come home safe and sound. That's how you win at Call of Duty. You complete all the mission objectives and survive all the levels in order to win, and that makes you a 'winner.' You don't win if you get captured halfway through the level. You lose. That makes you a 'loser.'

So what if you get killed halfway through the level? What does that make you according to this winners/losers worldview lens?

Regardless of whether he actually said it or not in regards to the Marines buried in Aisne-Marne American Cemetery, it does not stretch the imagination at all to imagine Trump saying "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero 'cause he got himself killed. I like people who weren't killed ok?"

There is no kernel of truth. The author of that article even basically admits it's not true. Trumps feud with McCain originated over McCain leading a committee that was mistreating veterans.

 

[Tahuyaman]

There has been much debate around whether President Trump called Marines buried in Aisne-Marne American Cemetery "losers and suckers."....

Seeing that nearly everyone who was there say that this never happened, I believe it was a made up story.

 

[Tahuyaman]

It's never a soldier's personal failures that he is captured, injured or killed....

As a retired US Army infantryman, I am safe in saying that you are wrong. One’s failure to perform effectively or in accordance with his training can lead to one bring killed, wounded or captured.

I had a 1SG who served several yours of duty in Vietnam. He was proud that he was never awarded a Purple Heart. He views it as a sign of his competence as a soldier.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

There is no kernel of truth. The author of that article even basically admits it's not true. Trumps feud with McCain originated over McCain leading a committee that was mistreating veterans.

Trump said that POWs are not heroes. He doesn't like them. He likes "the people that weren't captured." That is the kernel of truth I am talking about. I know that he said that because I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. And you can too.

Whatever Trump's feud with McCain, saying that he likes "the people that weren't captured" is an insult to all POWs, not just McCain.

 

[Tahuyaman]

Being a POW doesn’t automatically give someone hero status.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Seeing that nearly everyone who was there say that this never happened, I believe it was a made up story.

As I mentioned in the OP, I don't care whether it happened or not. If it is a lie, it is an easy lie to believe, because it is consistent with the President's character.

 

[Casca XV]

Trump said that POWs are not heroes. He doesn't like them. He likes "the people that weren't captured." That is the kernel of truth I am talking about. I know that he said that because I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. And you can too.

Whatever Trump's feud with McCain, saying that he likes "the people that weren't captured" is an insult to all POWs, not just McCain.

No President in 50 years has been better for Vets than Trump. Im in a position to know personally.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

As a retired US Army infantryman, I am safe in saying that you are wrong. One’s failure to perform effectively or in accordance with his training can lead to one bring killed, wounded or captured.

I had a 1SG who served several yours of duty in Vietnam. He was proud that he was never awarded a Purple Heart. He views it as a sign of his competence as a soldier.

Thank you for your service.

If your position is that soldiers who are killed, wounded, or captured are "losers and suckers," and that only the soldiers who come home alive are "winners," that is fine. It is a sentiment that the Commander in Chief shares. We can agree to disagree on that point.

For myself, I don't believe that competence is necessary for heroism. If someone chooses to risk their own life and their own freedom to protect what they love, I think that is heroic, regardless of whether that person is killed, wounded or captured through their own lack of competence or not.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No President in 50 years has been better for Vets than Trump. Im in a position to know personally.

Aside from having his foundation shut down and being forced to pay $2 million in damages for breaching his fiduciary duty to a Veteran's fundraiser, can you give me some other examples of things that President Trump has done for Vets?

 

[Casca XV]

Aside from having his foundation shut down and being forced to pay $2 million in damages for breaching his fiduciary duty to a Veteran's fundraiser, can you give me some other examples of things that President Trump has done for Vets?

He had an event that raised money for Vets, and they got 100% of it. The $2 million was a campaign finance fine because Leftist SDNY Judge said his 2016 campaign got a publicity benefit from the event.

Increased VA budget increase that far out paced the rest of the Federal Govt budget increases. Giving Vets the option to go to private doctors which ended them dying on waiting lists.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

He had an event that raised money for Vets, and they got 100% of it. The $2 million was a campaign finance fine because Leftist SDNY Judge said his 2016 campaign got a publicity benefit from the event.

Increased VA budget increase that far out paced the rest of the Federal Govt budget increases. Giving Vets the option to go to private doctors which ended them dying on waiting lists.

The option to go to private doctors was provided by the Veteran's Choice Act, which was created by Senators John McCain and Bernie Sanders, and signed into law by President Barack Obama in 2014.

Unlike the MISSION Act of 2018 (which was also originally conceived by Senator John McCain), the Veteran's Choice Act did not pass with a supermajority in the House, so President Obama had the power to veto it if he chose. Accordingly, Obama signing the Veteran's Choice Act was more than just a meaningless gesture and had an actual impact on the bill becoming law.

By contrast, the MISSION Act of 2018, which expanded on the Veteran's Choice Act, passed with an overwhelming supermajority in both the House and the Senate, so President Trump couldn't have stopped it even if he tried. Accordingly, Trump signing the MISSION Act was a meaningless gesture and had no actual impact on the bill becoming law.

More to the point, President Trump called John McCain, the originator of both bills, a "loser."

 

[Tahuyaman]

Thank you for your service.

If your position is that soldiers who are killed, wounded, or captured are "losers and suckers," and that only the soldiers who come home alive are "winners," that is fine. It is a sentiment that the Commander in Chief shares. We can agree to disagree on that point.

For myself, I don't believe that competence is necessary for heroism. If someone chooses to risk their own life and their own freedom to protect what they love, I think that is heroic, regardless of whether that person is killed, wounded or captured through their own lack of competence or not.

Did I ever say soldiers who were killed, wounded or captured were losers or suckers? If you think I did, show me where.

The fact is, just as in every other profession people possess varying degrees of competence. That is often a factor in surviving or not surviving.

 

[Tangmo]

As a retired US Army infantryman, I am safe in saying that you are wrong. One’s failure to perform effectively or in accordance with his training can lead to one bring killed, wounded or captured.

I had a 1SG who served several yours of duty in Vietnam. He was proud that he was never awarded a Purple Heart. He views it as a sign of his competence as a soldier.

He never knew your name.

I'd bet on it.

 

[Tahuyaman]

He never knew your name.

I'd bet on it.

What?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Did I ever say soldiers who were killed, wounded or captured were losers or suckers? If you think I did, show me where.

The fact is, just as in every other profession people possess varying degrees of competence. That is often a factor in surviving or not surviving.

Well, the context of the discussion was that President Trump doesn't like the soldiers that get captured. He likes the one's that don't get captured. Other remarks of his have illuminated that this is because the 'winners' rise to the top, while the 'losers' get stuck in POW camps and French graveyards.

ecofarm presented his perspective that President Trump is not using a very good metric to evaluate which soldiers to like and dislike. My impression was that your response to ecofarm's comment was defending President Trump's method of determining which soldiers are 'winners' and which are 'losers.'

If you agree with ecofarm's assesment that President Trump is not using a very good metric to determine which soldiers to like and dislike, then I stand corrected.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Your assumption that I am part of the Democratic party is incorrect.

ACA is a good example to highlight the differences I am talking about though. Obamacare was based on a proposal that Obama submitted to Congress on Feb 24, 2009.

The Mission Act, by contrast, was not initially proposed by President Trump. It was proposed by John McCain. The very same John McCain that Trump called a "loser". The very same John McCain of whom Trump said "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero 'cause he was captured. I like people who weren't captured ok?" The very same John McCain who you now seem happy to throw under the bus.

Furthermore, Obama could have stopped ACA. It passed the House by a narrow 220–215 vote, and it passed the Senate by a 60-39 vote, still well shy of a supermajority. So if Obama didn't like the bill, it was in within his power to veto it. So signing it into law, in that case, was meaningful participation in its creation.

The Mission Act, by contrast, passed in the House with an overwhelming, bipartisan 347 - 70 vote, and then passed the Senate with an overwhelming, bipartisan 92 - 5 vote. So if Trump didn't like the bill, there wasn't anything he could do about it, because a supermajority in both houses would override a Presidential veto anyway. So signing it didn't have any meaningful effect on it passing.


Do you find it ironic that the bill you gave as an example of President Trump's regard for the military was originally conceived by a veteran who he literally called a "loser" and "not a hero"?

Your attempted narrative that Trump had little or nothing to do with the Mission Act is ludicrous. While I am delighted that it passed through congress easily, that does not take anything from Trump's broad support of the bill and his campaigning hard to improve the VA Healthcare system. As for John McCain, my opinion of him is not much more positive then Trump's opinion of him. The only difference is that I honor McCain for his military service. And while I appreciate that he proposed the Mission Act, my overall opinion of his service in congress is not positive. As a politician, I considered him a pompous ass. I do agree that the statements Trump made towards McCain's military career were ill thought out.

 

[swing_voter]

I think Trump is real glad that his daddy got him that deferment for bone spurs.

Trump's dad was this podiatrist's landlord. For getting Trump out of Vietnam, the podiatrist never saw a rent increase for 30 years.

Like Trump says, "only fools and suckers go into the military."

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Your attempted narrative that Trump had little or nothing to do with the Mission Act is ludicrous. While I am delighted that it passed through congress easily, that does not take anything from Trump's broad support of the bill and his campaigning hard to improve the VA Healthcare system.

Ok, I'm open to learning new things. If President Trump actually did anything to participate in the actual passing of the Mission Act, that is the knowledge that I would honestly like to have. If by "broad support" and "campaigning hard" you mean that he said some nice things about VA Healthcare with his words, I will remind you that you opened this discussion on the premise that actions speak louder than words, and you care about what the President does in office, not what he says:

"As a veteran, I care about what a president does or does not do in office. That includes policies in regards to active duty military and veterans."

So if you can point me to an actual executive action that Trump performed, without which the bill would not have become law, I will retract my assertion that Trump had little to do with the passing of the MISSION Act.

As for John McCain, my opinion of him is not much more positive then Trump's opinion of him. The only difference is that I honor McCain for his military service. And while I appreciate that he proposed the Mission Act, my overall opinion of his service in congress is not positive. As a politician, I considered him a pompous ass.

To paraphrase a piece of wisdom I once heard, "I care about what a Senator does or does not do in office. That includes policies in regards to active duty military and veterans."

Pompous ass or not, John McCain undeniably fought hard for Veterans on the Senate floor. I don't mean "broad support" and "campaigning hard" in word alone, but literal legislative action, without which those bills would not exist.

If you see yourself as someone who values actions over words, and you also see the MISSION Act as Exhibit A for legislature that supports Veterans, how do you reconcile sharing the opinion that the originator of the MISSION Act is a 'loser'?

I do agree that the statements Trump made towards McCain's military career were ill thought out.

Your ability to recognize when someone on your team has made a mistake is commendable. It is more than many are capable of on either side of the aisle.

Do you think saying "I like the people who weren't captured" is just an ill-thought out statement about McCain's military career in particular? Or is it an ill-thought out statement about all American POWs? If those words had come from Obama's mouth regarding John McCain, would you feel that it was an insult to all POWs?