Trump 'very disappointed' with General Motors after plant closures

[Chomsky]

The reality is that U.S. consumers are moving away from sedans to SUVs and what are called crossovers. Please remember that Ford announced the same type of move a while ago. This had to do with GM catching up with buyers preferences,so tariffs don't apply in any true sense.

This I do not deny. My point was that a tax on raw materials is not helping the situation.

 

[Chomsky]

I think it's fair to point out how unfair life an be, but it unfairly absolves Numnuts from yet another of his broken promises. Haven't you seen all the footage of him at his rallies shouting over and over about all the jobs he's bringing back to middle America?

I heard on the news that GM warned him beforehand that his tariffs would result in this. In the end tariffs makes everyone pay more, but Trumpettes hear the word 'tariff' and they get all a'twitter. Results are nice, but for Numnuts, it's a secondary concern. His goal is to keep them revved up and their minds off all his broken promises and he's very good at it. They don't even notice.

Those heavy industry jobs Numnuts promised will arrive about the same time Mexico pays for his wall, he repeals Obamacare and keeps Muslims from entering the America. Yet many Trumpettes say they only put up with a scumbag like him because he's doing so much...

GM is not unique in this tariff problem. Ford predicted this exactly, including the time frame for the lay-offs:

(Fortune) Ford Prepares for Mass Layoffs After Losing $1 Billion to Trump's Trade Tariffs, Report Says

Playing around with flippant & unnecessary taxes like this, may come-back to burn Trump in those Upper Midwest states he critically needs in 2020.

 

[washunut]

This I do not deny. My point was that a tax on raw materials is not helping the situation.

I am not in favor of the steel tariffs,they surely do not help the auto industry. That being said they were just not successful in most of the sedan market.

 

[Irwin Corey]

What did he expect, he jacks up the price of steel with tariffs and gives business a 50% discount on taxes for overseas production (ref NPR 27NOV18).

Voodoo economics 2.0 The rich WILL get richer and the rest of the country will suffer.

 

[phattonez]

Because the concern is pure political demagoguery. GM's actions totally disprove Republican ideology.

Trump and Republicans told us that if we cut corporate taxes and regulations that more jobs would be created.

But here we see that *gasp* companies create jobs based on demand not the size of their tax breaks.

Supply-side economics has long been disproven. Here we see a concrete example. It doesn't matter how many tax breaks you give GM, they won't create more jobs if there is no greater demand for their cars.

Do you agree?

This is an outsourcing issue, not a tax issue. GM is simply going where labor is cheaper and they're better able to exploit workers. The real question is what are we going to do about it?

 

[phattonez]

Apply whatever circular logic you want, but the simple fact is when you tax products Americans use in manufacturing, you raise the cost of the end-product and decrease it's competitiveness in the market place.

So we should move all of our production to China because it's so much cheaper there. What's the problem?

 

[Chomsky]

What did he expect, he jacks up the price of steel with tariffs and gives business a 50% discount on taxes for overseas production (ref NPR 27NOV18).

Voodoo economics 2.0 The rich WILL get richer and the rest of the country will suffer.

That's the part that blows me away --> the incentive for keeping American corps' production overseas. What the hell is that all about?

 

[Chomsky]

So we should move all of our production to China because it's so much cheaper there. What's the problem?

Keep applying unnecessary taxes in America, and you may get your wish. If manufacturers are forced by government-controls to choose a market, they'll go for the bigger one every time.

 

[Irwin Corey]

That's the part that blows me away --> the incentive for keeping American corps' production overseas. What the hell is that all about?

For AmeriCANs it makes no sense. For multi-nationals … they pay LESS taxes to GAIN cheap labor. Over time it pays for the new plant, short term higher profits bigger executive bonus's.

Thank you pResident t, you've **** ed America and AmeriCANs, but the 1% wins again! Which is all Mitch, Ryan and all the rest of the sell out GOP needed to please their Oligarch masters.

 

[phattonez]

Keep applying unnecessary taxes in America, and you may get your wish. If manufacturers are forced by government-controls to choose a market, they'll go for the bigger one every time.

Do you think that companies move production to China and Mexico because taxes are low or because labor is cheap?

 

[jnug]

So we should move all of our production to China because it's so much cheaper there. What's the problem?

It pains me to point out that the argument that GM can't make autos competitively for the US market while BMW and Mercedes and and a whole host of other non-US based manufactures can is just plain illogical.

If US Auto Makers do not adapt their value proposition, value being the market position US Auto Makers have always occupied, I really don't care where they make the darned things, they will fail IMO. To see their link to the US market now down to a slim straw to Trucks and SUVs is appalling but predictable based on how often they have been late and sloppy in adapting to American's changing perceptions of what actually represents value. This Value market was once all theirs....every tom dick and larry piece of it.

Why do folks think we have felt compelled to bail them out time and time again? We have because they learn NOTHING. They are mired in the 1970's at the top seemingly no matter who they put there!

 

[Chomsky]

For AmeriCANs it makes no sense. For multi-nationals … they pay LESS taxes to GAIN cheap labor. Over time it pays for the new plant, short term higher profits bigger executive bonus's.

Thank you pResident t, you've **** ed America and AmeriCANs, but the 1% wins again! Which is all Mitch, Ryan and all the rest of the sell out GOP needed to please their Oligarch masters.

The bolded seems to be the only constant across administrations & Presidents.

 

[Renae]

Why do you think it's a good thing to show no concern at all?

Business make changes, sometimes that affects workers. Life isn't fair, deal with it.

 

[Irwin Corey]

The bolded seems to be the only constant across administrations & Presidents.

BUT! What is the justification? It can only be explained by the saying: "In the long run we're all dead".

Because what is happening, what has happened since Regan is suicide capitalism. No doubt the Wealthy have become FABULOUSLY wealthy … BUT … at the expense of EVERYONE the Nation itself, but mostly the middle class. The middle class IS the goose that lays, well laid, the golden egg. When you kill the middle class, as voodoo economics has, you kill the economy from which you derive profits. So we have suicide/vulture capitalism; GET YOURS WHILE THE GETTING IS GOOD.

The 1%, and those that sell out to them (trump mcconell ryan … gop in general) are the REAL enemy of the people and our great Nation.

 

[Chomsky]

Do you think that companies move production to China and Mexico because taxes are low or because labor is cheap?

Both. Plus in China they can be closer to the most consumers.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

That is so true and you have got me laughing my butt off now.

My friends could never figure out how I could break the wheels lose in a Dodge van with an automatic at 45 mph going into second gear. Simple, I'd wind it out in "Low" (1st gear) and then, just AS it was getting ready to bang itself into Second, I'd blip the throttle, which of course multiplied the torque just as it was hitting Second.
It wouldn't just "chirp", it would leave a distinct "signature" on the asphalt, and not maybe a second and a half later, that behemoth would be at 60 mph.
Man oh man, that W-2 360 was a wonderful engine, but that 727 TorqueFlite slushbox was bulletproof.
I can't say that the van was "FAST" because it really WAS a big old heavy work van and it was weighed down with a lot of
built-in audio-video crap, plus I always had lights, extra batteries etc in the rear.

But it definitely could "get the groceries". I'll just say that it was "surprisingly spirited".

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Both. Plus in China they can be closer to the most consumers.

ALL companies have to be ready to serve the Chinese market, but there is also a significant amount of uncertainty in the air because China could, at a moment's notice, decide to ramp up the hostilities in our current trade war in ways that could inflict vast amounts of damage to the US economy.
And they could do it JUST AS some large US companies, like GM, are just on the eve of making significant Chinese investments, and then the Chinese could also turn around and decide to "confiscate" those investments in a manner in keeping with Chinese law, which is a large grey area to most Americans.

In fact, it's probably something of a grey area to industrial investors, because Chinese law doesn't get created the way American or even Western law gets created.
Chinese law is sometimes created by internal edicts which are announced and PASSED as law the day of the announcement.
There is no conflict between the offices of President Xi and the Chinese legislature like there is in a Western country.

The Chinese can vaporize large Western investments in the blink of an eye if they choose to.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

No
It was a dealer demo with under 5k. Why pay for the depreciation driving it off the lot?

I'm not poo-pooing your buying choice, I am simply identifying you as someone who was probably never going to buy a new Volt in the first place even if you liked the car overall.
I can't buy a new Volt either, far from it.
My daughter didn't either, she bought a used one, which is what I will be doing as soon as I sell of my paid-off Prius.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

First car was a '77 El Camino Classic. It was badly maintained by it's previous owner. I learned a lot about working on cars from that thing.

My 1972 Nova had a tired 2 barrel 307 with a floor mounted three speed in it and I immediately dropped in a 396 four barrel big block and a Muncie M-22 four speed.
It was a beautiful car but it was a lot more beautiful with the extra hundred and twenty five horsepower and the extra gear.
Of course, the gas bill wasn't so beautiful but at my age, I didn't care, because it was almost all disposable income in my pocket.
I quickly learned what "wheel hop" was though...another 75 bucks for some ladder bars in the rear!

I also modified that 1967 Chevy pickup, too, got rid of the column mounted three speed in favor of a floor mounted four speed, but I left the 235 cubic inch straight six engine alone. That "three on the tree" was always getting hung up in first because of the worn out linkage, so it needed to go away no matter what.
The access hole for the floor mounted shifter was already there under the carpet, it just needed to be knocked out.
Replacing that transmission was ridiculously easy. And finding a driveshaft was a matter of ten bucks at the same junkyard I got the four speed from.

 

[Chomsky]

ALL companies have to be ready to serve the Chinese market, but there is also a significant amount of uncertainty in the air because China could, at a moment's notice, decide to ramp up the hostilities in our current trade war in ways that could inflict vast amounts of damage to the US economy.
And they could do it JUST AS some large US companies, like GM, are just on the eve of making significant Chinese investments, and then the Chinese could also turn around and decide to "confiscate" those investments in a manner in keeping with Chinese law, which is a large grey area to most Americans.

In fact, it's probably something of a grey area to industrial investors, because Chinese law doesn't get created the way American or even Western law gets created.
Chinese law is sometimes created by internal edicts which are announced and PASSED as law the day of the announcement.
There is no conflict between the offices of President Xi and the Chinese legislature like there is in a Western country.

The Chinese can vaporize large Western investments in the blink of an eye if they choose to.

While these risks are always inherent, they are heightened during trade wars, which is another reason to not get involved in trade wars: Unintended consequence.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Then they should start building Toyotas. Well functioning vehicles are generally more profitable than poorly functioning ones unless you're selling it as a yard ornament.

When is the last time you drove a Chevy Malibu, or a Cruze, or a Cobalt, or a Buick or anything relatively recent from GM?
Lemme guess:

 

[Chomsky]

My 1972 Nova had a tired 2 barrel 307 with a floor mounted three speed in it and I immediately dropped in a 396 four barrel big block and a Muncie M-22 four speed.
It was a beautiful car but it was a lot more beautiful with the extra hundred and twenty five horsepower and the extra gear.
Of course, the gas bill wasn't so beautiful but at my age, I didn't care, because it was almost all disposable income in my pocket.
I quickly learned what "wheel hop" was though...another 75 bucks for some ladder bars in the rear!

I also modified that 1967 Chevy pickup, too, got rid of the column mounted three speed in favor of a floor mounted four speed, but I left the 235 cubic inch straight six engine alone. That "three on the tree" was always getting hung up in first because of the worn out linkage, so it needed to go away no matter what.
The access hole for the floor mounted shifter was already there under the carpet, it just needed to be knocked out.
Replacing that transmission was ridiculously easy. And finding a driveshaft was a matter of ten bucks at the same junkyard I got the four speed from.

"Three on the tree"! Haven't heard that in a long time. Same with your new, "Four on the floor"! :thumbs:

Of course me & my boys back then, never said anything so proper as: "Two barrel carburetor". We either said, "Duece" or "Quad", or simply "Double-Pumper" (if it was).

 

[SDET]

When is the last time you drove a Chevy Malibu, or a Cruze, or a Cobalt, or a Buick or anything relatively recent from GM?
Lemme guess:

That's actually not a bad Elky. It looks pretty complete, not horrifically rusted and straight body panels. Mine was 20 years older than that one, built while Eisenhower was in the White House.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

"Three on the tree"! Haven't heard that in a long time. Same with your new, "Four on the floor"! :thumbs:

Of course me & my boys back then, never said anything so proper as: "Two barrel carburetor". We either said, "Duece" or "Quad", or simply "Double-Pumper" (if it was).

Seeing as how I don't know the level of familiarity everyone else has with the lingo, I chose to use neutral terminology.
As a kid, my first car accident was self-inflicted.
I refused to SIT DOWN in the back of our 1957 Olds Dynamic 88. I was six years old. I had to kneel on the back seat and peer over it to see what was going on.

My uncle picked it out special for my mom, it was a dealer ordered option package with some stuff that would make you drool:

I believe that the correct lingo back then was "three deuces", which later on in the MoPar 1960's became the "Six-Pak".

Of course, despite the torquey (315 hp at 4,600 RPM, and 415-lbs.ft. at 3,000 RPM) engine and the very hefty Hydra-Matic slushbox, safety wasn't a big concern. The seat backs did not lock, there were no seat belts and the dash was a vast expanse of pure metal, and when Dad suddenly had to jack the brakes due to a kid who ducked in front of him and slammed HIS brakes, yours truly went up and over the seat back and nose first into the dashboard.
Dislocated upper jaw, nose fracture and hairline cheekbone fractures which have affected me for the rest of my life ever since.

But as the blood poured from my face, with my head cradled in Dad's lap as he took off for Long Island Jewish Hospital five miles away, I will never forget watching the speedo go instantly from zero to 90 as he left a long trail of rubber in his wake, and the dramatic G-forces of all that acceleration.
Because for sure, once those old bias ply's finally hooked up, it was still climbing back up to 45, 50, 60, 70 as he laid on the horn and dashed in and out of traffic. And the sound, my God, the sound was a wail of solid lifters, massive air intake and Hell fire out the back as every single cubic inch of displacement got filled with the Sunoco 240 gasoline in the tank.

Despite my pain and the terror of realizing I'd just smashed face first into a metal object, I was experiencing a ride that was better than anything on Coney Island where we'd been just a week before.
Dad was unleashing his inner Andy Granatelli, a real marvel considering his German-Jewish heritage, and we got to the hospital in the twinkling of an eye.

I'll spare you the rest but let's just say that it was the first time I ever realized what that old white car with the funny looking tail lights could do. I was hooked on fast cars from that moment on.

I also stayed seated from that point on, too!

 

[Renae]

My 1972 Nova had a tired 2 barrel 307 with a floor mounted three speed in it and I immediately dropped in a 396 four barrel big block and a Muncie M-22 four speed.
It was a beautiful car but it was a lot more beautiful with the extra hundred and twenty five horsepower and the extra gear.
Of course, the gas bill wasn't so beautiful but at my age, I didn't care, because it was almost all disposable income in my pocket.
I quickly learned what "wheel hop" was though...another 75 bucks for some ladder bars in the rear!

I also modified that 1967 Chevy pickup, too, got rid of the column mounted three speed in favor of a floor mounted four speed, but I left the 235 cubic inch straight six engine alone. That "three on the tree" was always getting hung up in first because of the worn out linkage, so it needed to go away no matter what.
The access hole for the floor mounted shifter was already there under the carpet, it just needed to be knocked out.
Replacing that transmission was ridiculously easy. And finding a driveshaft was a matter of ten bucks at the same junkyard I got the four speed from.

We took the engine out and did the "disassemble on the sheet" routine. My Uncle and Cousin were doing super Sport drag racign and were sponsored by Budweiser at the time so we had a full garage of tools. Things I learned:
Tying your seatbelt on isn't too bright
Holes in the floor board lets dust in
It's cool to have your bench seat rock backwards because the front posts are rotted away
Who needs working A/C? Roll down the window
Driving with a broken steering column is a challenge
8 Track was awesome! (The most functional part of the car)
When missing parts for the exhaust system, 2 and 1/2" steel pipe works in a pinch
Always check the rear tires when buying from druggies... they might have maybe taken the brakes apart and sold the parts for money...