Trump 'very disappointed' with General Motors after plant closures

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The absolute worst car I have ever owned was a Pontiac Firebird, I believe those were made by GM. It was literally unfit for the road, and no longer running at 50,000. I pretty much swore off GM at that time. A while later I had a Ford Merkur, which was fast as hell, but handled terribly. It was declared a death trap by Consumers. I drove a Saab for years, Toyota SUV for a bit, then an Infiniti, a Subaru and then settled in Germany.
I haven't driven a GM car in quite some time, but have a family member who is an avid read of Car and Driver, and have not heard any good news from that quarter, nor has he ever mentioned the slightest interest in owning one. I have a good friend who drives a Suburban, and would never give it up...for whatever reason. I've been in it and it feels like riding in a truck, and it ain't even pretty.

To each his own. Hope GM finds a way to save the jobs.

So you had a 1982 (maybe?) Firebird and a German Ford, (Merkur was never made in the USA and has no US components) and you've ridden in a GM truck, and that comprises the sum total of your experience with GM vehicles, and you know a guy who reads some magazines.
I'd say that your assessment of GM is entirely fair, given that you have had almost zero exposure to GM cars in the last 35 years.
And you're right, the 1982 Firebirds were crap.
Early GM Suburbans ARE TRUCKS, only they replaced the pickup bed with a passenger compartment. They were basically very short school busses.

But...this is 2018, 37 years later.
Just a thought...

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Example 1, I was recently looking at both the Prius and Volt, Volt is over priced and the Prius was just not what we wanted to pay. For 16k I got a Crossover SUV with 30-35mpg vs paying 24k+ for a Hybrid or a pure lectrical

So you got a used car, fair enough.

 

[Hari Seldon]

There are several kinds of "sedan style cars" that Americans have been buying in the last decade or so.

1. The hatch, also sometimes known as a "hot hatch" because it might have some jazzy performance.
2. The highly bespoke luxo-sport sedan.
3. Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Honda Accord.

Although American carmakers, particularly GM, have indeed made cars similar to the Camry, Altima and Accord with what could be argued EQUAL and sometimes better quality in the last decade or so, the fact is, Camry, Altima and Accord owners WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER switch.
And, the Camry, Altima and Accord were STILL just a teensy weensy bit better anyway.

The US manufacturers lost that market segment for the most during the 80's when they started making absolute crap and they never were able to win back that market to the point where it was super profitable again, despite making a decent product once again. And an entire generation grew up SINCE then, conditioned to accept that when one looks for a sedan, one looks to Toyota, Nissan or Honda.

The only way GM, Ford or even Chrysler were ever going to find enough profitability in that market was going to be if they stomped Toyota, Nissan and Honda into the ground and claimed the Numero Uno spot.
They should be happy that they got #2 or #3, and I guarantee you a lot of people are impressed, but it wasn't enough given the overhead here in the U.S.

The US has never made a decent hot hatch except for the Ford Focus, and most of the market for those is EU anyway.
And the luxo-sport sedan market belongs to Mercedes, and BMW, and always has.

Nowadays it could be argued that we make a very GOOD luxo-sport sedan, like the Chrysler 300, but it's not THE BEST.
And again, with our overhead being what it is, if we aren't going to be #1 by a wide margin (stomping a mudhole in MBZ-BMW) we cannot make enough profit to be sustainable.

Ford finally figured it out a while back. Ford will continue to offer Lincolns, and the Mustang.
That's IT for Ford in the car market, PERIOD.
GM is now finally admitting the same. They realize that they can probably offer ONE Buick model, maybe TWO Caddy models, and the Camaro and Corvette and that's all she wrote.
And FCA (formerly Chrysler) might just kill the series that replaces the 300 pretty soon, I would wager twenty bucks on it.

The fact is, if Americans buy American vehicles, they mostly buy crossovers, minivans, small SUV's, large SUV's and pickup trucks.

And as far as killing the Volt, they are killing the Volt because it is ALSO a SEDAN, despite the fact that it has a hatchback.
It is STILL a four door sedan and Americans do not buy very many American four door sedans.
Voltec hybrid technology is probably going to live on, at least for the next five or even ten years, just not in a four door sedan.

And GM is stating that it really intends to transition, as soon as possible, to FULL Battery Electric Vehicles anyway, so Voltec technology style powertrains may eventually give way to full EV powertrains anyway.

I expect we will see Volt powered crossovers and small SUV's for a few years more, but only for as long as it takes for the electric charging infrastructure to become accepted as ubiquitous and thoroughly commonplace throughout the entire country.=, and for the battery technology to transition to the point where ten or fifteen minutes is more than adequate for sufficient charge time to keep a vehicle topped up enough to travel within humanly feasible range for a full day's driving...….

Bought a new 2013 Altima which was my second. The 1st one lasted 8 years and 180,000 miles. Commuting beat the hell out of it. This new one needed a new transmission at 75k. No help from Nissan. Won't be buying another Nissan. Went with a Subaru Legacy. Wife is very happy with it. Also bought a certified used 2010 Malibu for my son. What a piece of garbage. Won't be buying a GM anytime soon.

I was reading one of the Cadillac sedans they are discontinuing has actually increased in sales from prior years. Interesting.

 

[JMR]

So you had a 1982 (maybe?) Firebird and a German Ford, (Merkur was never made in the USA and has no US components) and you've ridden in a GM truck, and that comprises the sum total of your experience with GM vehicles, and you know a guy who reads some magazines.
I'd say that your assessment of GM is entirely fair, given that you have had almost zero exposure to GM cars in the last 35 years.
And you're right, the 1982 Firebirds were crap.
Early GM Suburbans ARE TRUCKS, only they replaced the pickup bed with a passenger compartment. They were basically very short school busses.

But...this is 2018, 37 years later.
Just a thought...

That hardly comprises all of my time in GM cars...we had a pickup at one time, (early 80's) which I did not care for. The "guy" who reads the magazines avidly does so to keep abreast of developments, and family members appreciate his thoughts. The friend has driven a Suburban for at least the last 20 years, and never more than 3 years before the new one, so I don't know how that figures for you.
I was only trying to indicate the variety of cars I've been in, and having driven them happily I see little reason to get off the path I've been and suddenly embrace a GM car. I'm happy for GM that they have such a satisfied customer as you perhaps that will help them in the long run. I don't see precisely where you have contradicted my original thought....what's wrong with sedans? The Japanese and Europeans make sedans that are fun and snazzy (for those of us who care) and are doing just fine. GM does not play well in that market, and doesn't seem interested in doing so.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Bought a new 2013 Altima which was my second. The 1st one lasted 8 years and 180,000 miles. Commuting beat the hell out of it. This new one needed a new transmission at 75k. No help from Nissan. Won't be buying another Nissan. Went with a Subaru Legacy. Wife is very happy with it. Also bought a certified used 2010 Malibu for my son. What a piece of garbage. Won't be buying a GM anytime soon.

I was reading one of the Cadillac sedans they are discontinuing has actually increased in sales from prior years. Interesting.

Subies are FLAT OUT INCREDIBLE.
I think it takes a nuclear bomb to actually kill a Subaru.
I can't prove it but I have it on good authority.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Subies are FLAT OUT INCREDIBLE.
I think it takes a nuclear bomb to actually kill a Subaru.
I can't prove it but I have it on good authority.

I hope so. They did up the warranty on the transmission to 100k. Might be an issue with the CVT but at least they are covering it. So far so good but only 10k. The lane keeping function takes some getting used to, you end up fighting the car at times.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

On the other hand, when I was a freelance news videographer in the 80's, I put well over 350 thousand miles on my 1974 Dodge Tradesman 300 work van, a white model with no windows past the front compartment and a steel cage in back of the front seats...basically the equivalent of a telephone company van, except since it was white, it was considered a "molester van"....(LOL) It already had well over a hundred thousand on it when I bought it, and it behaved as it was factory fresh, except for the crappy electronic ignition, which I replaced with an aftermarket MSD unit right away.

360 4-barrel, 727 TorqueFlite automatic, 3:73 rear diff.
Unkillable, even doing 350 miles a day.
The original owner had installed an extra trans cooler, a 300 amp alternator and a supersized three core radiator with extra electric fans in the front.
It had been owned by radio jock "Humble Harv" from 93 KHJ.

No charge for the tuck and roll upholstery!

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I hope so. They did up the warranty on the transmission to 100k. Might be an issue with the CVT but at least they are covering it. So far so good but only 10k. The lane keeping function takes some getting used to, you end up fighting the car at times.

I'm ambivalent on CVT's but that's because I am so old that I expect to hear and feel gear changes, and because to my old brain, the term "continuously variable transmission" makes me think of a friction clutch on a Briggs and Stratton minibike. (LOL)

My instincts keep screaming at me that my car is really an overgrown minibike with a friction clutch.
My Prius has one, and it is unnerving.
The other large vehicles that have them are L.A. city busses...but at least theirs finally "lock up" when you hit 35 mph.
You can tell because if you're standing when it clicks in, it tries to throw you to the floor.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I'm ambivalent on CVT's but that's because I am so old that I expect to hear and feel gear changes, and because to my old brain, the term "continuously variable transmission" makes me think of a friction clutch on a Briggs and Stratton minibike. (LOL)

My instincts keep screaming at me that my car is really an overgrown minibike with a friction clutch.
My Prius has one, and it is unnerving.
The other large vehicles that have them are L.A. city busses...but at least theirs finally "lock up" when you hit 35 mph.
You can tell because if you're standing when it clicks in, it tries to throw you to the floor.

Our Altima has a CVT (now my daughters) and it drove fine. Except of course when we had to replace it. Still pisses me off.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

That hardly comprises all of my time in GM cars...we had a pickup at one time, (early 80's) which I did not care for. The "guy" who reads the magazines avidly does so to keep abreast of developments, and family members appreciate his thoughts. The friend has driven a Suburban for at least the last 20 years, and never more than 3 years before the new one, so I don't know how that figures for you.
I was only trying to indicate the variety of cars I've been in, and having driven them happily I see little reason to get off the path I've been and suddenly embrace a GM car. I'm happy for GM that they have such a satisfied customer as you perhaps that will help them in the long run. I don't see precisely where you have contradicted my original thought....what's wrong with sedans? The Japanese and Europeans make sedans that are fun and snazzy (for those of us who care) and are doing just fine. GM does not play well in that market, and doesn't seem interested in doing so.

I see no reason to try to convert you either, but you have relatively little or no experience with American cars in the last 35 years, sorry but that's just a fact.

By the way, maybe I forgot to mention that I am a MoPar guy (Chrysler) ...did I forget to mention that earlier?
So if I WAS going to try to impress you with an American car, it would most likely be a Chrysler product.
At age seventeen or so, I owned a 1972 Chevy Nova, and in my twenties I had a 1967 Chevy pickup.
I beat the Nova mercilessly and sold it still running with 125 thousand miles on it.
I beat the crap out of the pickup by subjecting it to Minnesota winters, but having originally been a New Hampshire truck it wasn't that much of a shock, but it held up. That is the extent of my GM ownership however I drove GM Astro vans and various Chevy company cars for many years when I worked in IT installation jobs. No worries.

My only point was that GM has been making some pretty good sedans in the last decade or so.
The only problem is, when they destroyed their own captive market in the 1980's (your Firebird era?) they never got it back sufficiently to hit #1 status again, and with their overhead that was the only way that it was going to remain sustainable in the long term. (see earlier post)

Last but not least, reading magazines doesn't equal driving experience with a car, no matter how many you read or how avidly you read them. Sorry, that's just a fact.

It all boils down to you believing that owning one Firebird 35 years ago and having a family member who reads magazines equals a wealth of experience with American cars, and me disagreeing with that assessment, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm okay with that if you are.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Our Altima has a CVT (now my daughters) and it drove fine. Except of course when we had to replace it. Still pisses me off.

My gut tells me that a continuously variable trans probably wants to be driven a certain way, and my guess is that it probably boils down to something along the lines of putting your foot into the accelerator and holding it at a certain spot no matter what for a long time.

Of course, for people who have owned regular cars with standard GEARED automatics, that is not how one drives them, as you well know. So my guess is, if you own a car with a CVT and you're constantly modulating the gas pedal to try to GET that gear shift feeling, it's probably the very thing the CVT doesn't WANT.

That's just my guess but I came to that thinking by watching metro bus drivers driving their machines, and that is how they do it. They press the pedal and just KEEP it in ONE spot the whole time and let the CVT do the accelerating, not the gas pedal.

That said, Chrysler automatics also like to be driven a certain way, the OPPOSITE of how a GM automatic likes to be driven.
Even the newer Chrysler automatics, with the NINE SPEEDS, still want to be treated a certain way.
It's very different from other automatics.

For one thing, with the ancient TorqueFlite automatic slushboxes, people complain that they shift hard, or "abruptly".
Truth is, if a TorqueFlite is "banging" into second and third, that means it is happy. You WANT a Chrysler TorqueFlite to make a THUMP when it shifts.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gm-chevy-volt-climate-obama-trump_us_5bfd7977e4b0eb6d93146bee

 

[jnug]

My gut tells me that a continuously variable trans probably wants to be driven a certain way, and my guess is that it probably boils down to something along the lines of putting your foot into the accelerator and holding it at a certain spot no matter what for a long time.

Of course, for people who have owned regular cars with standard GEARED automatics, that is not how one drives them, as you well know. So my guess is, if you own a car with a CVT and you're constantly modulating the gas pedal to try to GET that gear shift feeling, it's probably the very thing the CVT doesn't WANT.

That's just my guess but I came to that thinking by watching metro bus drivers driving their machines, and that is how they do it. They press the pedal and just KEEP it in ONE spot the whole time and let the CVT do the accelerating, not the gas pedal.

That said, Chrysler automatics also like to be driven a certain way, the OPPOSITE of how a GM automatic likes to be driven.
Even the newer Chrysler automatics, with the NINE SPEEDS, still want to be treated a certain way.
It's very different from other automatics.

For one thing, with the ancient TorqueFlite automatic slushboxes, people complain that they shift hard, or "abruptly".
Truth is, if a TorqueFlite is "banging" into second and third, that means it is happy. You WANT a Chrysler TorqueFlite to make a THUMP when it shifts.

That is so true and you have got me laughing my butt off now.

 

[JoanDavis]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politic...nted-with-general-motors-after-plant-closures

Trump, shut the **** up. It's a business decision to get out of unprofitable products, and move to get ahead of the market trends. There are times you really are an asshat.

trump wants GM to go bankrupt. Just like all his businesses did.

 

[JoanDavis]

Oh, the products are profitable...in China.

A lot of GM cars are being built in China. And there will be more American companies moving operations to cheaper Asian and South American countries. trump and his daughter also have sweatshops in Vietnam, Bangladesh, China and Mexico.

So much for bringing American jobs back to America.

 

[jnug]

A lot of GM cars are being built in China. And there will be more American companies moving operations to cheaper Asian and South American countries. trump and his daughter also have sweatshops in Vietnam, Bangladesh, China and Mexico.

So much for bringing American jobs back to America.

I think I hear the sound of that other shoe dropping on Donald Duck. In fact he needs three feet for the shoes that are dropping. He has Mueller closing in. He has the House flipping and will have a microscope stuck up his emoluments rear end. He has the general level of corruption in his cabinet that will get a thorough going over and will dovetail nicely with House emoluments probes into Trump himself and he is about to get caught with his fat white pot-marked butt end caught out in the breeze with Blue Collar Bob.

 

[Fearandloathing]

A lot of GM cars are being built in China. And there will be more American companies moving operations to cheaper Asian and South American countries. trump and his daughter also have sweatshops in Vietnam, Bangladesh, China and Mexico.

So much for bringing American jobs back to America.

so let's see in the campaign promise department; Obamacare still there, North Korea has stepped up its nuclear program, the US is at war with Canada, Mexico, China and The EU and jobs are leaving the country.

How was it he was making 'Murica great again?

BTW, those four words the moron uttered about Korea will go down in history: "we fell in love......."

You know things got really questionable under Bush II but America has never looked this stupid....

 

[Renae]

So you got a used car, fair enough.

No
It was a dealer demo with under 5k. Why pay for the depreciation driving it off the lot?

 

[Renae]

I see no reason to try to convert you either, but you have relatively little or no experience with American cars in the last 35 years, sorry but that's just a fact.

By the way, maybe I forgot to mention that I am a MoPar guy (Chrysler) ...did I forget to mention that earlier?
So if I WAS going to try to impress you with an American car, it would most likely be a Chrysler product.
At age seventeen or so, I owned a 1972 Chevy Nova, and in my twenties I had a 1967 Chevy pickup.
I beat the Nova mercilessly and sold it still running with 125 thousand miles on it.
I beat the crap out of the pickup by subjecting it to Minnesota winters, but having originally been a New Hampshire truck it wasn't that much of a shock, but it held up. That is the extent of my GM ownership however I drove GM Astro vans and various Chevy company cars for many years when I worked in IT installation jobs. No worries.

My only point was that GM has been making some pretty good sedans in the last decade or so.
The only problem is, when they destroyed their own captive market in the 1980's (your Firebird era?) they never got it back sufficiently to hit #1 status again, and with their overhead that was the only way that it was going to remain sustainable in the long term. (see earlier post)

Last but not least, reading magazines doesn't equal driving experience with a car, no matter how many you read or how avidly you read them. Sorry, that's just a fact.

It all boils down to you believing that owning one Firebird 35 years ago and having a family member who reads magazines equals a wealth of experience with American cars, and me disagreeing with that assessment, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm okay with that if you are.

First car was a '77 El Camino Classic. It was badly maintained by it's previous owner. I learned a lot about working on cars from that thing.

 

[SDET]

Not ideal, but 95% of this is GM moving their focus away from unprofitable vehicles.

Then they should start building Toyotas. Well functioning vehicles are generally more profitable than poorly functioning ones unless you're selling it as a yard ornament.

 

[phattonez]

Oh, I'm sorry, do I need to have a big cry fest because some people lost their jobs? that will make a big difference in their lives! Why it will really mattter too!

Why do you think it's a good thing to show no concern at all?

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Simple fix. Subsidize the production and purchase of GM electric vehicles in coal powered towns. When coal miners plug all those discount GM electric vehicles into the grid, they'll create demand for their jobs.

lol. Let's also force China to buy the cars that even American consumers don't want to buy.

Trump economics in a nutshell.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Why do you think it's a good thing to show no concern at all?

Because the concern is pure political demagoguery. GM's actions totally disprove Republican ideology.

Trump and Republicans told us that if we cut corporate taxes and regulations that more jobs would be created.

But here we see that *gasp* companies create jobs based on demand not the size of their tax breaks.

Supply-side economics has long been disproven. Here we see a concrete example. It doesn't matter how many tax breaks you give GM, they won't create more jobs if there is no greater demand for their cars.

Do you agree?

 

[Chomsky]

And not applying tariffs on foreign automobiles when manufacturers are using dirt cheap foreign labor is in effect picking winners and losers. Those who win are those who abuse local populations and pay them dirt while the losers are American workers who used to have good paying jobs. Yes, a lack of tariffs is a subsidy for the rich because those who pay for that are workers who no longer have their good paying jobs.

Apply whatever circular logic you want, but the simple fact is when you tax products Americans use in manufacturing, you raise the cost of the end-product and decrease it's competitiveness in the market place.

 

[Chomsky]

Same can be said for gas taxes hikes, unions, and minimum wage laws. It all effects the profitability of GM and their ability to get a stable footing in the market place. But I see only justifications for those, while dismissing any justification for tariffs.

Exactly. And piling on here with more government tariff taxes is not helping. That was my point.