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Trump The Magnificent

JackA

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I'm sick to death of Trump but I give him credit for this. As a fraud he's magnificent. I can't think of anyone in my lifetime to match him. What political candidate has ever had a spiel that when he's in office "you're going to be so happy!"? Then everyone cheers for the happiness that's coming.

He uttered as clear a fraud line as there can be in his "acceptance" speech the other night when he bemoaned the sad state of the U.S. military by pointing out that the navy has fewer ships today than it had in WWI. These were chosen words, in a written text. They were true, I suppose. Other true words he could have said are that not a single military person thinks this comparison means what Trump suggests it means, not even taking into account the number of navy ships in WWI that were sail boats. Other true words he could have said but didn't are that the U.S. navy is far and away the strongest navy in the world, that its number of aircraft carriers at eleven is first and the countries in second have one. But I think the most telling true words he could have said and didn't, words right beneath the surface, are that his knowing fraudulent comparison isn't intended to deceive, whether it does or not; rather it's part of the spiel, part of the act Tump puts for an audience that agrees to be gullible because they don't really care that he is leading them down the garden path. They want to go, whatever it turns out to be they are going to, as long as it is Trump the Magnificent leading the way.
 

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Whatever his secret to success...he has succeeded way past what I thought the American Republican voters would allow.


Either I have under-estimated his skill as a motivator...

...or I have VASTLY over-estimated the intelligence of the Republican voters.

Jury is still out on that.

November should help me decide.

If he, and the under-card, lose in a landslide like I think they will...the latter is where I went wrong...not the former.
 

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He is definitely great at what he does.
 

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Whatever his secret to success...he has succeeded way past what I thought the American Republican voters would allow.


Either I have under-estimated his skill as a motivator...

...or I have VASTLY over-estimated the intelligence of the Republican voters.

Jury is still out on that.

November should help me decide.

If he, and the under-card, lose in a landslide like I think they will...the latter is where I went wrong...not the former.

Far more the latter than the former, methinks. Had you told me in 1980 that the Tea Party would hijack the GOP and then that 'movement' would would beget a juvenile, braggadocios bully like Trump, I would never have believed you.

I had thought Conservatives were smarter than that.
 

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I can't take credit for the comparison, but someone today compared Trump to Thornton Melon (Rodney Dangerfield) from BACK TO SCHOOL. It's just true enough to be hilarious.
 

Frank Apisa

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I can't take credit for the comparison, but someone today compared Trump to Thornton Melon (Rodney Dangerfield) from BACK TO SCHOOL. It's just true enough to be hilarious.

I've always thought:

Irwin-Corey-july-29-birthday.jpg
 

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I'm sick to death of Trump but I give him credit for this. As a fraud he's magnificent. I can't think of anyone in my lifetime to match him. What political candidate has ever had a spiel that when he's in office "you're going to be so happy!"? Then everyone cheers for the happiness that's coming.

Trump's great insight is that half the country has a below-average IQ, and has been raised to be entertained by television. And he is indeed brilliant at it.
 

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Trump's great insight is that half the country has a below-average IQ, and has been raised to be entertained by television. And he is indeed brilliant at it.

Well that's a no duh! We are a large and diverse enough population to be a representation of the whole species population, so of course almost half would be below average - almost half is above average. The republican party has that mix just as the democrats do. And Trump took the above average members as well. Not to mention, the democrat members were also raised on the same entertainment. Has access and uses the same television and internet.

Trump's "great insight" has been known since the day we founded this nation and before. Eventually any peoples will get to the point where they are so tired of being told by their government, their so-called representatives what they want - and go for what they really want, even if it involves defying their own party/government.

The party, the government is supposed to be our servant, to express our will. That hasn't been the case for a long time now. We're past the point of straws breaking the camel's back. The party and the government will change.
 
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cpwill

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Well that's a no duh! We are a large and diverse enough population to be a representation of the whole species population, so of course almost half would be below average - almost half is above average. The republican party has that mix just as the democrats do. And Trump took the above average members as well. Not to mention, the democrat members were also raised on the same entertainment. Has access and uses the same television and internet.

Trump's "great insight" has been known since the day we founded this nation and before. Eventually any peoples will get to the point where they are so tired of being told by their government, their so-called representatives what they want - and go for what they really want, even if it involves defying their own party/government.

The party, the government is supposed to be our servant, to express our will. That hasn't been the case for a long time now. We're past the point of straws breaking the camel's back. The party and the government will change.

Good luck with your Hope and Change. I'm sure it will work out as well as it did last time.
 

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Trump's great insight is that half the country has a below-average IQ, and has been raised to be entertained by television. And he is indeed brilliant at it.
I'm not sure that the average Trump voter is an idiot. I think they're paying more attention to his attitude than to his policies.

That shouldn't be too surprising. Lots of people are disengaged from politics, and the nitty-gritty of government policies is complex and often counter-intuitive.

Trump voters are also (similar to many other groups) very tribal in their thinking. His nativist statements in particular trigger this off. At this point, Trump could say he wants to murder puppies, and most of his followers would wave it off. That's not necessarily an indicator of intelligence either, as highly intelligent people can also be very tribal.

That being said, I think he's going to have a very hard time walking back any of his promises. In particular, he can't back down on building a wall to Mexico, or agreeing with any free trade agreements, without pissing off his supporters -- who are apparently already pretty pissy in the first place.
 

cpwill

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I'm not sure that the average Trump voter is an idiot. I think they're paying more attention to his attitude than to his policies.

Aristotle said that we are what we repeatedly do.

Which is my way of saying that I think your second statement contradicts your first.

That shouldn't be too surprising. Lots of people are disengaged from politics, and the nitty-gritty of government policies is complex and often counter-intuitive.

Trump voters are also (similar to many other groups) very tribal in their thinking. His nativist statements in particular trigger this off. At this point, Trump could say he wants to murder puppies, and most of his followers would wave it off. That's not necessarily an indicator of intelligence either, as highly intelligent people can also be very tribal.

That being said, I think he's going to have a very hard time walking back any of his promises. In particular, he can't back down on building a wall to Mexico, or agreeing with any free trade agreements, without pissing off his supporters -- who are apparently already pretty pissy in the first place.

I think these two pieces contradict themselves as well. I agree wholeheartedly that tribalism is more at the center of Trumpism than ideology - but if that is true, then ideological promises are less important. So long as he doesn't betray the tribe, his policy particulars are whatever they are, or will be, or might change to.
 

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There was another thread that asked which historical figure Trump reminds you of.
Though not necessarily historical leaders, there are suddenly two that come to mind.

W.C. Fields "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****."
P.T. Barnum "There's a sucker born every minute."
 

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Visbek

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The party, the government is supposed to be our servant, to express our will. That hasn't been the case for a long time now.
There are 318 million Americans now, and we don't agree on a lot of stuff. So whose will are the politicians supposed to mind?

What do you do if the citizens want services, but don't want to pay for them?

What do you do, when the citizens don't want to get involved in international affairs, but still want to demand that other nations do what we tell them to do, if we don't like their behavior?

What do you do, when the same people who demand high-paying jobs don't want to pay the price for the goods made by those high-paying jobs? Or when they are opposed to unions because.... they demand high pay for their workers?

What do you do, when the same people who fume about jobs going overseas don't even notice that huge swaths of jobs were eliminated not by foreign competition, but by automation?

What do you do, when 45% of the population wants one thing, 45% do not, and 10% don't care?
 

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Aristotle said that we are what we repeatedly do.
Okay, and...? That doesn't change the fact that policies are not the same thing as attitude.


I think these two pieces contradict themselves as well.
I assure you, there is no contradiction there. We're pretty much saying the same thing.

Ideology is clearly secondary here. The "Us" for Trump's followers (as best I can tell) is hard-working, white, mostly male, mostly ex-middle class, sick of (and insensitive to) the complaints of minorities and women, and with an "American" identity. The "Them" is foreigners, immigrants, minorities, and whoever they classify as "the elite" (media, bankers, politicians, etc). That can easily include conservatives, big business, and others in the traditional Republican coalition.

Sometimes, those in the tribe can be forgiven for their sins. Other times, it's a betrayal of an identity. If Trump proclaimed tomorrow that "NAFTA was a good idea" or "We should increase the number of legal immigrants to the US," I'm fairly confident he'd be blasted as a traitor. Ideology is only important to the extent that it's critical to the tribal identity.

This is one reason why he can flip-flop on all sorts of non-core policy ideas, in a matter of minutes, without his supporters giving a crap. As long as it doesn't violate the concept of the group's identity, it doesn't matter.
 

Frank Apisa

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There are 318 million Americans now, and we don't agree on a lot of stuff. So whose will are the politicians supposed to mind?

What do you do if the citizens want services, but don't want to pay for them?

What do you do, when the citizens don't want to get involved in international affairs, but still want to demand that other nations do what we tell them to do, if we don't like their behavior?

What do you do, when the same people who demand high-paying jobs don't want to pay the price for the goods made by those high-paying jobs? Or when they are opposed to unions because.... they demand high pay for their workers?

What do you do, when the same people who fume about jobs going overseas don't even notice that huge swaths of jobs were eliminated not by foreign competition, but by automation?

What do you do, when 45% of the population wants one thing, 45% do not, and 10% don't care?

So much good stuff to comment on...I will restrict myself to that last sentence.

The notion of having our elected officials "do what we want" is an impossibility. Your use of 45% works in many cases.

But even when it doesn't, a significant number of people want greater, more encompassing safety net programs...even to the point now of guaranteed income for EVERYONE...while a significant number want the government out of the "safety net program" stuff altogether.

A significant number want total single-payer medical coverage for EVERYONE...a significant number want the government out of that kind of thing entirely.

It goes like that down the list.

Government, ESPECIALLY IN SOCIAL ISSUE DIVIDED AMERICA, is not set up "to do what the people want."

We need people who will make the best decisions they can. That is the idea behind a representative republic. We elect people to discuss, compromise, and eventually decide how we will go.
 

Frank Apisa

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As for the jobs lost to technology...

...we are in a world of trouble, because our voting public seems unwilling to hear the truth about that...and the rabble-rousers will win that battle every time right now.

We have MAJOR decisions to make because of the impact of our technology on jobs...on being able to earn a living...and we are not even started in that direction.
 

jmotivator

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Well that's a no duh! We are a large and diverse enough population to be a representation of the whole species population, so of course almost half would be below average - almost half is above average. The republican party has that mix just as the democrats do. And Trump took the above average members as well. Not to mention, the democrat members were also raised on the same entertainment. Has access and uses the same television and internet.

Trump's "great insight" has been known since the day we founded this nation and before. Eventually any peoples will get to the point where they are so tired of being told by their government, their so-called representatives what they want - and go for what they really want, even if it involves defying their own party/government.

The party, the government is supposed to be our servant, to express our will. That hasn't been the case for a long time now. We're past the point of straws breaking the camel's back. The party and the government will change.

If I thought for a second that Trump would actually be an engine of the will of the people I might actually support him. But he is not now and never will be. The system runs best when the people provide for themselves through their own application of their will rather than appointing someone they hope will do it for them.
 

jmotivator

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There are 318 million Americans now, and we don't agree on a lot of stuff. So whose will are the politicians supposed to mind?

What do you do if the citizens want services, but don't want to pay for them?

What do you do, when the citizens don't want to get involved in international affairs, but still want to demand that other nations do what we tell them to do, if we don't like their behavior?

What do you do, when the same people who demand high-paying jobs don't want to pay the price for the goods made by those high-paying jobs? Or when they are opposed to unions because.... they demand high pay for their workers?

What do you do, when the same people who fume about jobs going overseas don't even notice that huge swaths of jobs were eliminated not by foreign competition, but by automation?

What do you do, when 45% of the population wants one thing, 45% do not, and 10% don't care?



You make a great argument for the Conservative way. The schizophrenic nature of the voting public is a great argument for small government. Government is best when it protects the right of people to seek what they want from life and worst when it tries to provide it for them.
 

American

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Whatever his secret to success...he has succeeded way past what I thought the American Republican voters would allow.


Either I have under-estimated his skill as a motivator...

...or I have VASTLY over-estimated the intelligence of the Republican voters.

Jury is still out on that.

November should help me decide.

If he, and the under-card, lose in a landslide like I think they will...the latter is where I went wrong...not the former.

Who are you voting for?
 

Visbek

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You make a great argument for the Conservative way. The schizophrenic nature of the voting public is a great argument for small government. Government is best when it protects the right of people to seek what they want from life and worst when it tries to provide it for them.
Just to be clear, I'm trying to make a non-partisan argument. ;)

One part is that different groups often make conflicting demands. What seems like an unresponsive government can actually be a product of a divided populace.

Another is that within a particular interest group, its desires can be contradictory. E.g. "we want cheap goods" and "we want lots of high-paying manufacturing jobs" are in direct conflict.

A third issue -- not mentioned above -- is that lots of people don't understand the limits of government. E.g. as we all should know, there are consequences to a government trying to make goods cheaper (via subsidies or price fixing). Similarly, there is almost nothing a government can do to create jobs, except directly hire people. And yet, the expectation for government to do one or both of these things is often very high, especially among people who are disengaged from the political system.

Thus, the key issue is, though: What do you do, when the demands of the public are incoherent?
 

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Trump's great insight is that half the country has a below-average IQ, and has been raised to be entertained by television. And he is indeed brilliant at it.

Half the country has a below-average IQ in an American average.. That's how it works...

Worldwide average IQ, you are wrong..
 

cpwill

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Just to be clear, I'm trying to make a non-partisan argument. ;)

One part is that different groups often make conflicting demands. What seems like an unresponsive government can actually be a product of a divided populace.

Another is that within a particular interest group, its desires can be contradictory. E.g. "we want cheap goods" and "we want lots of high-paying manufacturing jobs" are in direct conflict.

A third issue -- not mentioned above -- is that lots of people don't understand the limits of government. E.g. as we all should know, there are consequences to a government trying to make goods cheaper (via subsidies or price fixing). Similarly, there is almost nothing a government can do to create jobs, except directly hire people. And yet, the expectation for government to do one or both of these things is often very high, especially among people who are disengaged from the political system.

Thus, the key issue is, though: What do you do, when the demands of the public are incoherent?

WE DEMAND THAT YOU TAX LESS, BORROW LESS, AND SPEND MORE!!! Also, we want you to kick all the bad guy's asses, but not be the policemen of the world, and have an awesome intelligence community that knows everything, but without spying on anyone.

Oh. And if you don't do this THEN WE ARE GOING TO BE VERY ANGRY ABOUT HOW YOU REFUSE TO DO THESE EASY THINGS BECAUSE YOU'RE ALL PART OF 'THE SYSTEM'
 
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