• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump team seeks to control, block Mueller’s Russia investigation

Moot

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,459
Reaction score
15,371
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
They are probing living, breathing people. Not documents.

They were probing a private email server and a thumb drive containing emails...aka...documents.
 

Surrealistik

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
8,873
Reaction score
4,408
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Oh boy, someone who thinks Bernie Sanders could have beaten Trump. Based on what? His amazing performance of not really caring what the rest of the party thought because 22 year olds were going topless at his events? Letting BLM folk shout him down at his own event? His fairytales of government funded university degrees for "free"?

Where on the Bernie train do you think the independent voter who wanted Trump to destroy Obamacare sits?

Based on all the statistics/polling at the time; statistics that showed independents and the general electorate both broadly supported Bernie's ideas and liked him far more than either Trump or Hillary by large margins.

And many of those who wanted a repeal/reform of Obamacare were probably on the side of Bernie in balance. Some didn't like Obamacare because it went too far; others disliked it because it didn't go far enough. Further, Sanders obviously didn't appeal to all independents, but he did appeal to most, and far more than either Trump or Hillary evidently.

Bernie might have won - who knows. But I do not think it's legitimate to point to his favorability and say, "see, people loved him!" etc. He was never a factor, not really, and so Hillary didn't have an incentive to attack him and neither did Trump. So he never faced any of the real scrutiny that comes with running for POTUS, and because he wasn't ever put through the POTUS race ringer like Clinton and Trump, with $hundreds of millions in attack ads against both, we just cannot look at his poll numbers and legitimately compare them to Clinton's, at least IMO.

I voted for him in the primary and would have liked to have seen this question answered in real life, but he lost and so we just don't know and never will.

We've been over this, and yes, as stated, when you have incredible margins over Trump like Bernie did that were consistent and unanimously reported in virtually all poll takers, with not many viable lines of attack, pointing to his favourability and the popularity of his ideas is perfectly legitimate as a basis of argument that he was a better candidate and more likely to win than Clinton, particularly in light of some of the states she lost that were taken in by Trump's populist rhetoric (Blue Wall/rust belt). Again, I don't pretend that a Bernie victory would have been by any means guaranteed, but I am confident in asserting that he was a better choice than one of the worst nominees the Dem party has ever forwarded in its entire history against one of the very worst nominees the Republicans have ever fielded, and the numbers suggest this is so.

You want to get an idea of the sort resistance Bernie might have encountered? Try reading about Upton Sinclair's gubernatorial run as a democrat in 1934.

He has much more in common with FDR (who was also despised by vested interests at the time and promised popular sweeping reforms, ultimately becoming one of the greatest if not the greatest president of all time) than with an actual hard socialist and oddball (the guy was legitimately into things like telepathy and the occult) like Upton Sinclair.
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,738
Reaction score
6,290
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Based on all the statistics/polling at the time; statistics that showed independents and the general electorate both broadly supported Bernie's ideas and liked him far more than either Trump or Hillary by large margins.

And many of those who wanted a repeal/reform of Obamacare were probably on the side of Bernie in balance. Some didn't like Obamacare because it went too far; others disliked it because it didn't go far enough. Further, Sanders obviously didn't appeal to all independents, but he did appeal to most, and far more than either Trump or Hillary evidently.



We've been over this, and yes, as stated, when you have incredible margins over Trump like Bernie did that were consistent and unanimously reported in virtually all poll takers, with not many viable lines of attack, pointing to his favourability and the popularity of his ideas is perfectly legitimate as a basis of argument that he was a better candidate and more likely to win than Clinton, particularly in light of some of the states she lost that were taken in by Trump's populist rhetoric (Blue Wall/rust belt). Again, I don't pretend that a Bernie victory would have been by any means guaranteed, but I am confident in asserting that he was a better choice than one of the worst nominees the Dem party has ever forwarded in its entire history against one of the very worst nominees the Republicans have ever fielded, and the numbers suggest this is so.



He has much more in common with FDR (who was also despised by vested interests at the time and promised popular sweeping reforms, ultimately becoming one of the greatest if not the greatest president of all time) than with an actual hard socialist and oddball (the guy was legitimately into things like telepathy and the occult) like Upton Sinclair.

I am talking about the smear campaign directed at Upton Sinclair during the 1934 election.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Based on all the statistics/polling at the time; statistics that showed independents and the general electorate both broadly supported Bernie's ideas and liked him far more than either Trump or Hillary by large margins.

Okay, so you're going to double down on this nonsense that if Bernie had beaten Hillary, he'd have gotten the vote of people who largely voted for all of these things:

- Mexico to a build a wall
- Repeal NAFTA
- Repeal ObamaCare
- Lock Hillary up
- ***** grabbing is just locker talk
- Lower taxes for the wealthy

The delusion of the Bernistas never gets old. On what planet do you think these things are plausible? One where we don't have to prove anything and hypothesis based on elections happening on the same day as some arbitrarily picked poll from January to July replace what actually ended up happening?

Please. Please comprehend that what Independents ended up voting for was exactly the opposite of everything Bernie stood for. Either they're morons who voted for Trump out of spite and now will get ****ed anyways, or they were never going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The most likely possibility is that these independents are like the majority of the prominent ones we see on this forum. Just socially conservative people too embarrassed to say they vote Republican.
 
Last edited:

Surrealistik

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
8,873
Reaction score
4,408
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I am talking about the smear campaign directed at Upton Sinclair during the 1934 election.

Again, I'm not sure what kind of smear effective against Bernie you would think would be so effective to decisively efface the popularity margins against Trump he was enjoying. Do you honestly believe neo-McCarthyism would have sunk the guy?

Okay, so you're going to double down on this nonsense that if Bernie had beaten Hillary, he'd have gotten the vote of people who largely voted for all of these things:

- Mexico to a build a wall
- Repeal NAFTA
- Repeal ObamaCare
- Lock Hillary up
- ***** grabbing is just locker talk
- Lower taxes for the wealthy

The delusion of the Bernistas never gets old. On what planet do you think these things are plausible? One where we don't have to prove anything and hypothesis based on elections happening on the same day as some arbitrarily picked poll from January to July replace what actually ended up happening?

Please. Please comprehend that what Independents ended up voting for was exactly the opposite of everything Bernie stood for. Either they're morons who voted for Trump out of spite and now will get ****ed anyways, or they were never going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The most likely possibility is that these independents are like the majority of the prominent ones we see on this forum. Just socially conservative people too embarrassed to say they vote Republican.

Please argue with the stats and polling. Again, what you are describing is a decisive minority of independents for whom one or several of these issues you mention were so overwhelmingly important that all else didn't matter.

If you look at the voting participation rate, it was pretty awful for good reason. Meanwhile, Trump won with the assent of 46.1% of 59.7% of the population or 27.52%. While he did command roughly 48% of independents that voted vs Clinton's 42%, that hardly tells us that independents as a majority were committed to any one or several of those motives (noting also that independents only made up 31% of voters in 2016 despite comprising roughly half the country). Trump's platform spanned beyond well beyond those ugly aspects, including many elements of economic populism (whether or not he planned to follow through with them), or did you think say the Blue Wall fell for any other reason?
 
Last edited:

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Again, I'm not sure what kind of smear effective against Bernie you would think would be so effective to decisively efface the popularity margins against Trump he was enjoying. Do you honestly believe neo-McCarthyism would have sunk the guy?

You really don't understand that people like Kal'Stang who call themselves independents would never have voted in a guy like Bernie over Trump?

Oh jeez.
 

Surrealistik

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
8,873
Reaction score
4,408
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You really don't understand that people like Kal'Stang who call themselves independents would never have voted in a guy like Bernie over Trump?

Oh jeez.

You seem to be missing or evading the point which is that a majority of independents do in fact like Bernie.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You seem to be missing or evading the point which is that a majority of independents do in fact like Bernie.

And yet the majority voted for the exact opposite; Trump.

Reality is not your friend right now.
 

Surrealistik

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
8,873
Reaction score
4,408
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
And yet the majority voted for the exact opposite; Trump.

Reality is not your friend right now.

#1: Trump commanded only a 6% lead of independents over Clinton; small but enough to win.

#2: Turn out was a miserable 59.7%. Turn out among independents was disproportionately low.

#3: Trump's messages of economic populism and anti-corruption (though yes, he followed through on none of it thus far save the abolition of the TPP) and his 'outsider' status/divide from the status quo clearly resonated with people and was the driving force behind most of his independent support, not his misogyny or xenophobia; he had solid, clear, relatable messages and calls to action on these points unlike Clinton. Again, there is a reason why he flipped the 'blue wall'. Bernie eats his lunch on these things, beyond being genuine about them.
 

Winston

Dead Voter
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Messages
18,277
Reaction score
13,309
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Bernie crushed with independents and had the power to increase voter turnout among millenials.
 

American

Trump Grump Whisperer
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
94,470
Reaction score
32,300
Location
SE Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Doesn't that qualify as Nunya??

People who hide their vote or their lean don't want to be known for a certain politics. It's easy to take jabs at others politics when they don't know yours. That's why they do it.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Because Bernie was not running

You are projecting, Hatuey.

Lmao - they voted for the exact opposite of their interests because the guy they wanted wasn't running?

Sounds legit. Who are you kidding?


This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 
Last edited:

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed

Here - explain to me why people who voted for Trump would have voted for Bernie given that they stand on opposite ends on the overwhelming majority of their politics?

Populism and anti-corruption messages? Good grief, you do realize that most Trump voters knew he was sleazy and just didn't care, don't you?

The liberal delusion continues. We lost because the numbers weren't there - and they have been declining for 12 years. 3 popular votes won while losing all 3 branches of government. Wake up folks, it's not the candidates, it's the geography of our votes.

Lol.



This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 
Last edited:

JamesBY

Banned
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
4,650
Reaction score
949
Location
Now in the mountains.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Lmao - they voted for the exact opposite of their interests because the guy they wanted wasn't running? Sounds legit. Who are you kidding? This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
Your post makes no sense.

The populists from the sensible right of center to the far left would have gone for Sanders before Trump, of course.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Your post makes no sense.

The populists from the sensible right of center to the far left would have gone for Sanders before Trump, of course.

Would have, could have are not substitutes for evidence or good debating strategies.

We have evidence that the independents who voted weren't left leaning. They voted for practically everything Bernie opposed. Yet here you are wanting to focus on what ifs.

Who is projecting now?


This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The Bernista mantra has become:

In an alternative reality, and if things had gone as we think they would have, Bernie would have been president.




This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 

JamesBY

Banned
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
4,650
Reaction score
949
Location
Now in the mountains.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Would have, could have are not substitutes for evidence or good debating strategies. We have evidence that the independents who voted weren't left leaning. They voted for practically everything Bernie opposed. Yet here you are wanting to focus on what ifs. Who is projecting now? This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
You have neither demonstrated good debating strategies or evidence. What you are doing is substituting your hopes and dreams in lieu of evidence. You have not demonstrated that the right of center to the left would not have could not have should not have voted for Trump. Not only the issues but the lack of Trump's moral qualification to be president would have been hammered home by the Sanders' supporters and not Sanders' supporters. They would have argued any port in a storm and that the GOP Congress would have been a break on the Bern.
 

MTAtech

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
32,691
Reaction score
28,545
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
MTAtech said:
Good advice. That's why I don't read Breitbart and White House press releases.
And that's why your a liberal .
And that's why your a liberal . :lol:
You use the word "liberal" like it was a curse word. Being called a liberal is a badge of honor. Why? Because liberals have noble history in this country. Liberals ended slavery in this nation. Liberals gave women the right to vote. Liberals gave seniors Social Security, so they could retire in dignity instead of poverty. Liberals gave us Medicare, so that seniors, who couldn't get health care, had affordable access. I could go on with civil rights; the GI Bill of rights; the ACA, etc., but I made my point.

Where were conservatives on all of those issues -- programs that made American lives better? They opposed every single one of them.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You have neither demonstrated good debating strategies or evidence. What you are doing is substituting your hopes and dreams in lieu of evidence. You have not demonstrated that the right of center to the left would not have could not have should not have voted for Trump. Not only the issues but the lack of Trump's moral qualification to be president would have been hammered home by the Sanders' supporters and not Sanders' supporters. They would have argued any port in a storm and that the GOP Congress would have been a break on the Bern.


Lmao, argue a negative.... Instead of proving a positive...which is what you've failed to do.

In short your argument relies on a fantasy that can't be argued through anything than your wishes of what would have happened. Bernie didn't beat Hillary and any claims about what would have happened if he had are bull**** because neither of us has a crystal ball.

We do know what happened:

- Hillary beat Bernie
- Trump beat Hillary
- Independents voted for Trump - whose policies were the exact opposites of what Bernie and Hillary argued for.

Conclusion:

Anything else is just you projecting on what ifs. Please learn the basics of argument construction?


This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 

Winston

Dead Voter
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Messages
18,277
Reaction score
13,309
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Lmao, argue a negative.... Instead of proving a positive...which is what you've failed to do.

In short your argument relies on a fantasy that can't be argued through anything than your wishes of what would have happened. Bernie didn't beat Hillary and any claims about what would have happened if he had are bull**** because neither of us has a crystal ball.

We do know what happened:

- Hillary beat Bernie
- Trump beat Hillary
- Independents voted for Trump - whose policies were the exact opposites of what Bernie and Hillary argued for.

Conclusion:

Anything else is just you projecting on what ifs. Please learn the basics of argument construction?


This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.

You're under the impression that the Democratic Primary was not rigged?
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You're under the impression that the Democratic Primary was not rigged?

When rigged means people spreading rumours about you and party members not supporting you, you officially enter Trump territory.

Remember when rigged meant the plurality of voters voting for one thing, and results being another?



This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 

Hatuey

Rule of Two
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
58,565
Reaction score
25,863
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Watching Bernists who thank my posts hammering Trump for undermining our elections and institutions turn around and cry that the vote was "rigged" is amazing.



This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.
 
Top Bottom