Trump suggests France would have been defeated without US

[TU Curmudgeon]

The U.S. didn't win World War I, but it damn sure prevented the allies from losing.

Change that to "insured that the allies wouldn't lose" and I don't have any qualms about it.

The importance of Belleau Wood was so recognized that the French gave Belleau Wood the nickname "Bois de la Brigade de Marine" ("Wood of the Marine Brigade"). The tenacity and fighting spirit of the Marines was so recognized that even the Germans gave the Marines a nickname. It's understood by historians that this was probably "hellhound," but the legend turned it into "Teufelshunde" ("Devil Dogs").

Actually story behind the nickname is slightly more convlouted:

The LaCrosse Tribune ran a story about the nickname on April 27, 1918,[3] and other newspapers used the story as early as April 14, 1918.[4] The Battle of Belleau Wood began on June 1, 1918.

The April 27th article from the LaCrosse Tribune was probably referring to the action on April 20, 1918, the first action between the Marines and the Germans. The Germans made several attacks against the Marines on that date and were unable to dislodge them. The article states that it was the first scrap between the Marines and the Germans, showing that it was prior to the major fighting in June. However, there are no sources to date of a German soldier referring to Americans as devil dogs.
[LINK]
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Regardless, the nickname is sound - even if it WAS invented by the MSM.

PS - No German would possibly confuse "Teufelhunden" with "Teufelshund"

 

[MSgt]

Also after the French and Serbian troops offensive breakthrough in Balkans resulted in the capitulation of Bulgaria and the collapse of the Macedonian front. Leaving Vienna and Budapest wide open to the allied offensive. Ludendorff concluded that the strategic and operational position of Germany and Central Powers had now become decidedly untenable and it was then that he asked for an immediate peace settlement

...To which led to the Versailles Treaty, which created the infamous (and very false) second myth, which was that the "politicians stabbed the military in the back." German conservatives rallied behind this myth and a first myth as they grew increasingly anti-democratic, anti-globalists, and autocratic.

One might ponder on how different the twentieth-century might have been had the AEF not shown up at the last second to keep Germany out of Paris.

- Germany could not continue the war anymore than the rest in Europe could. Germans were starving, rioting, and threatening civil war.

- But capturing Paris would have eased the tensions in Germany.

- German Generals would have led the armistice from a better position, rather than relegate it to the politicians as they did.

We certainly would not have seen the later "Austrian Private" as Hindenburg called him.

 

[MSgt]

Change that to "insured that the allies wouldn't lose" and I don't have any qualms about it.



Actually story behind the nickname is slightly more convlouted:

The LaCrosse Tribune ran a story about the nickname on April 27, 1918,[3] and other newspapers used the story as early as April 14, 1918.[4] The Battle of Belleau Wood began on June 1, 1918.

The April 27th article from the LaCrosse Tribune was probably referring to the action on April 20, 1918, the first action between the Marines and the Germans. The Germans made several attacks against the Marines on that date and were unable to dislodge them. The article states that it was the first scrap between the Marines and the Germans, showing that it was prior to the major fighting in June. However, there are no sources to date of a German soldier referring to Americans as devil dogs.
[LINK]
​

Regardless, the nickname is sound - even if it WAS invented by the MSM.

PS - No German would possibly confuse "Teufelhunden" with "Teufelshund"

Yeah, it's certainly convoluted. Whatever the Germans were calling the Marines went through a translation, which coincided with the creation of the legend. Once the newspapers began printing "Devil Dog," that was what stuck.

 

[Oborosen]

From Associated Press

Trump suggests France would have been defeated without US
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WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump escalated his verbal assaults against France on Tuesday, suggesting that America’s stalwart European ally would have been vanquished in both world wars if not for the military firepower provided by the United States.

Trump tweeted about a suggestion by French President Emmanuel Macron that Europe build up its militaries because the continent can no longer depend on the U.S. for defense. Macron had also said Europe needs to protect itself against cyberthreats from China, Russia and the U.S.

“Macron suggests building its own army to protect Europe against the U.S., China and Russia,” Trump tweeted. “But it was Germany in World Wars One & Two - How did that work out for France? They were starting to learn German in Paris before the U.S. came along. Pay for NATO or not!”

The president has long complained that NATO countries don’t pay their fair share of the defense alliance’s expenses, leaving the U.S. to carry much of the burden. He has criticized Macron before and after attending a weekend ceremony in Paris to commemorate 100 years since the end of World War I.

COMMENT:-

Mr. Trump doesn't appear to realize that, in WWI, the US didn't arrive on the scene until BOTH sides were on the verge of collapse (with the Germans being closer to the edge of than the Allies were).

Mr. Trump also doesn't appear to realize that, in WWII, France WAS defeated and that if the US hadn't joined in two years after the war started, the most probable outcome would have been that the Red Army would have held the victory parade in Paris.

Actually I'm rather surprised that Mr. Trump isn't supporting the idea of the Europeans forming a "Continental Army" and thus relieving the US of the horrendous cost of defending Europe. Mind you, if the Europeans decide that they can do very nicely without the US military, how will Mr. Trump be able to complain that they "aren't paying their own share"?

When people call Mr. Trump "bone spurs" I sometimes think that they are approaching matters from the wrong end.
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I'm going to go ahead and point out that there is a reason why a largely used stereotype of the French, is either of being drunk, fleeing from a fight, or both.

Trump has a right to his opinion, though I do think that Twitter helps to make the punch hit a tiny bit, harder.

 

[MTAtech]

Yes, Trump is a madman but let's not get trapped by another distraction. There are serious issues facing the U.S. Following the latest shiny object plays right into his hand.

 

[Hawkeye10]

From Associated Press

Trump suggests France would have been defeated without US
​

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump escalated his verbal assaults against France on Tuesday, suggesting that America’s stalwart European ally would have been vanquished in both world wars if not for the military firepower provided by the United States.

Trump tweeted about a suggestion by French President Emmanuel Macron that Europe build up its militaries because the continent can no longer depend on the U.S. for defense. Macron had also said Europe needs to protect itself against cyberthreats from China, Russia and the U.S.

“Macron suggests building its own army to protect Europe against the U.S., China and Russia,” Trump tweeted. “But it was Germany in World Wars One & Two - How did that work out for France? They were starting to learn German in Paris before the U.S. came along. Pay for NATO or not!”

The president has long complained that NATO countries don’t pay their fair share of the defense alliance’s expenses, leaving the U.S. to carry much of the burden. He has criticized Macron before and after attending a weekend ceremony in Paris to commemorate 100 years since the end of World War I.

COMMENT:-

Mr. Trump doesn't appear to realize that, in WWI, the US didn't arrive on the scene until BOTH sides were on the verge of collapse (with the Germans being closer to the edge of than the Allies were).

Mr. Trump also doesn't appear to realize that, in WWII, France WAS defeated and that if the US hadn't joined in two years after the war started, the most probable outcome would have been that the Red Army would have held the victory parade in Paris.

Actually I'm rather surprised that Mr. Trump isn't supporting the idea of the Europeans forming a "Continental Army" and thus relieving the US of the horrendous cost of defending Europe. Mind you, if the Europeans decide that they can do very nicely without the US military, how will Mr. Trump be able to complain that they "aren't paying their own share"?

When people call Mr. Trump "bone spurs" I sometimes think that they are approaching matters from the wrong end.
​

Trump is not saying anything that I have not been hearing from others my whole life.

 

[MSgt]

He is correct.

You have it quite backwards. The Allies were closer to defeat in WWI than the Germans. We saved France and ultimately England

It would not have worked out that way. Once the Spring Offensive reached Paris, Germany would have sought an armistice on their terms. All of Europe was finished and this is why Ludendorff pushed for his last ditch effort to win. England would have been fine. Germany would have needed to be able to get past the established naval blockade. Besides this, we know that over two decades later, Germany still hadn't the capacity to cross the English Channel during World War II. This is why all of the governments of continental Europe based in England.

But Trump is not correct about France in World War II. It was long defeated. Aside from the German invasion, France's elite and a large portion of the population held sympathies and even envy for Hitler's National Socialism. This is why Vichy was more than prepared to step up and celebrate Germany's defeat of democracy and racial hierarchy. In fact, France began loading trains with Jews and shipping them to the East before Hitler even asked for them.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I'm going to go ahead and point out that there is a reason why a largely used stereotype of the French, is either of being drunk, fleeing from a fight, or both.

Indeed there is a reason, in fact there are several reasons. Some of those reasons are:

1. ignorance;
2. bigotry;
3. ignorance;
4. prejudice;
5. ignorance;
6. crappy education;
7. self-serving myths;
8. xenophobia;
9. mindless acceptance of what some talking head says;
10. stupidity; and, of course
11. ignorance.

Trump has a right to his opinion, though I do think that Twitter helps to make the punch hit a tiny bit, harder.

I agree that Mr. Trump has a right to his opinion, I just don't confuse the opinion of a person of demonstrated lack of knowledge with a fact (unless, of course, there is reputable, verifiable, third-party, evidence to support that opinion) - and, even then I'm not "confusing" it with a fact.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Trump is not saying anything that I have not been hearing from others my whole life.

I don't doubt it.

Sad.

 

[Lovebug]

Trump this, Trump that. He seems to be a master of keeping the gossips busy.

 

[humbolt]

Trump this, Trump that. He seems to be a master of keeping the gossips busy.

Do you know what Trump said just this morning? I don't, but I can tell you that it was just awful, whatever it was.

 

[Lovebug]

Do you know what Trump said just this morning? I don't, but I can tell you that it was just awful, whatever it was.

and more so than yesterday for sure.

 

[humbolt]

and more so than yesterday for sure.

It'll be the outrage that tops all outrages...until tomorrow.

 

[Amelia]

What is the point?

Whether France would have been sunk without us or not, that was then. Now the U.S. is being a very bad ally.

Because 100 years ago the U.S. was a good friend, Europe is not supposed to be realistic now that the U.S. is becoming a flaky friend at best, and at times appearing much worse?

 

[Tigerace117]

Please do not raise reality in an Internet "discussion".

Of course, Germany never could have gotten as powerful as they did without Stalin actively aiding and abetting Hitler.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I don't doubt it.

Sad.

Ragging on the French is a standard American pastime.

Do you remember Freedom Frys?

 

[Northern Light]

There's no point in digging up such a painful piece of our collective history unless it were to incite malice between allies.

Coming from a man who didn't serve a day in his life in the military and actually dodged service 4 times for being in college and "sore feet", he should really STFU.

 

[SCrider]

Ragging on the French is a standard American pastime.

Do you remember Freedom Frys?

Yes, And that proved to be embarrassing in hind site.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Yes, And that proved to be embarrassing in hind site.

Besides the point.

 

[Objective Voice]

Hey, Remember when France helped us become a country??? And then they gave us the Statute of Liberty?

That's that part of world/U.S. history most people forget. The French scratched our backs more than once and we've in turn scratched theirs. At this point, our President is pissing off America's longest running ally just to score points on his ego meter.

Ben Franklin went to France first seeking their help against Great Britian in the run up to the Revolutionary War. So, when you think about it if wasn't for France secretly providing us much needed supplies throughout the war effort, there wouldn't be a United States of America.

How quickly we forget history for our own sake.

 

[Fledermaus]

Only if you don't know that neither England nor France was in any more danger of falling than Germany was after 1915.



IOW, if it wasn't for the US then the borders of Europe after WWI would have been the same as they were before WWI - which is what would have happened as the result of a negotiated peace between France, the UK, and Germany.

1. Unternehmen Seelöwe was "postponed indefinately" on 17 September 1940.
2. Unternehmen Barbarossa commenced on 22 June 1941.
3. Once Unternehmen Seelöwe was "postponed indefinately" and Unternehmen Barbarossa commenced the UK was in no further danger of invasion by the Axis.
4. The US entered WWII (against Germany) on December 11, 1941.

The US entry into the European phase of WWI saved the UK - how?

You do know that October 16, 1941 was a key date in the history of WWI, don't you?

Do you know what happened on that date?

Josif Stalin decided NOT to leave Moscow, that's what happened.

Had Stalin left Moscow on that date, the odds on a complete Russian collapse would have approached a near certainty and a German victory over Russia would have been almost assured. (You might note that the US wasn't involved in WWII at that point.)

Once the Russian Bear turned to defend its ground, the eventual defeat of Germany was assured.

American trucks helped (so did American [and British] bombing that interfered with German logistics, but the key factor was the success of the Normandy landings which had the effect of ensuring that the Red Army wouldn't (eventually) roll over Germany and right up to the English Channel.

PS - Did you know that if it wasn't for French aid the "Patriots" would have lost the American Revolution?

PPS - Did you know that, if it wasn't for the French (Napoleon in specific) the Americans would have lost the War of 1812 (which the Americans started)?

Most Americans do not know the tide was turning by the time the US engaged Germany.

 

[Oborosen]

Indeed there is a reason, in fact there are several reasons. Some of those reasons are:

1. ignorance;
2. bigotry;
3. ignorance;
4. prejudice;
5. ignorance;
6. crappy education;
7. self-serving myths;
8. xenophobia;
9. mindless acceptance of what some talking head says;
10. stupidity; and, of course
11. ignorance.

I agree that Mr. Trump has a right to his opinion, I just don't confuse the opinion of a person of demonstrated lack of knowledge with a fact (unless, of course, there is reputable, verifiable, third-party, evidence to support that opinion) - and, even then I'm not "confusing" it with a fact.

I'm going to go ahead and ignore how you are trying to say that I'm blindly accepting Trump's opinion as "Truth" and just bite into the meat of the issue.

Stereotypes are at the very least, based on kernels of truth about certain individuals, or societies that those individuals reside in.
https://www.1cover.com.au/secret-traveller/national-stereotypes/

 

[Lionman]

President Trump did not have to "suggest" it.

It is a fact: The Yanks saved England and France in both wars.

If not for the doughboys during World War I, the English and French would have been forced to reach a deal that would left the Kaiser still in charge of Germany. ...

And what would had been the problem in this case? No Soviet empire? No Nazis? And instead the multi-national empire Austria-Hungaria and the Osman-empire would still exist? World War 1 ended by the way in the East of Europe not in 1918 but in 1922 after a long series of civil wars.

 

[Lionman]

That's that part of world/U.S. history most people forget. The French scratched our backs more than once and we've in turn scratched theirs. At this point, our President is pissing off America's longest running ally just to score points on his ego meter.

Ben Franklin went to France first seeking their help against Great Britian in the run up to the Revolutionary War. So, when you think about it if wasn't for France secretly providing us much needed supplies throughout the war effort, there wouldn't be a United States of America.

How quickly we forget history for our own sake.

If the French had not eliminated the rulership of the nobles then perhaps nowhere in the world would exist democracy today. France is a candidate for the [not existing] super Nobel price for pragmatic history. We never will know the alternatives - but "civilisation" without France? How? "To win" or "to lose" is not a really important thing. Much more important is to know what to fight for.

Oh by the way: What is Donald Trump fighting for? Saudi Arabia? Kim Jong-Un?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Of course, Germany never could have gotten as powerful as they did without Stalin actively aiding and abetting Hitler.

And, of course, firms like IBM, GM, Ford, IT&T, duPont, Goodyear, and a whole lot of other companies based in the same country.

But, of course, you are right. If it hadn't been for the Russians then WWII would never have happened.