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Trump' s character will be his downfall

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What you're really saying here is that if I don't agree with your opinion that all criticism stems from hatred of the man, I am a useful idiot for "them." But Truth doesn't have a "side."


I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this "character" nonsense is a strawman erected by Trump haters. I'm saying that you, by focusing on this strawman, are playing into the Trump hater's agenda.

I'm saying I am looking beyond the strawman. I'm looking at WHY the Trump haters hate Trump.
 
Have you consumed any mainstream media lately? There's your Trump hatred.

Almost every article or story on Trump that I read is merely reporting what is happening in the Trump Administration. The things he says and does. I have yet to hear or read any reputable reporter saying they hate Donald Trump. They don't even say he is stupid. They report the things that he says and does and the things that people around him are saying and doing. Reporting on the newsworthy things that are happening while ignoring the things he's doing right is not hatred. That's how the news works. Good news is back page news. Bad news is headline news.

No president deserves headline news stories about the things he does that he's supposed to be doing as president. Every president gets headline news about the mistakes that he makes. If Trump wants better news coverage, he ought to stop saying and doing newsworthy things.
 
Nancy Pelosi explained it best when she said she didn't even know what was really coming out of the white house for this shutdown. One minute Trump says one thing and then boom, less than a couple of hours he changes his mind. There is no professionalism, courtesy, or stability coming from the White House Administration. This all stems from Trump's lack of good character. He truly is incompetent. Not because of what he says but because he refuses to even listen to those who know better and would rather surround himself with those that are even less competent than him.

Aw you forget! He is a stable genius and knows more about technology, wars, our generals etc. Ha!
 
So says Jonah Goldberg, who writes:

Nearly all of the controversies that have bedeviled Trump’s administration are the direct result of his character, not his ideology. To be sure, ideology plays a role, amplifying both the intensity of anger from his left-wing critics and the intensity of his transactional defenders. Many of the liberal critics shrieking about the betrayal of the Kurds implicit in Trump’s decision to withdraw from Syria would be applauding if a President Clinton had made the same decision. And many of the conservatives celebrating the move would be condemning it.

But Trump’s refusal to listen to advisers, his inability to bite his tongue, his demonization and belittling of senators who vote for his agenda but refuse to keep quiet when he does or says things they disagree with, his rants against the First Amendment, his praise for dictators and insults for allies, his need to create new controversies to eclipse old ones, and his inexhaustible capacity to lie and fabricate history: All of this springs from his character. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/12/trump-character-will-be-his-downfall/

Most of these points are fair, but, it wasn't like we haven't been saying this since 2015.
 
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this "character" nonsense is a strawman erected by Trump haters. I'm saying that you, by focusing on this strawman, are playing into the Trump hater's agenda.

I'm saying I am looking beyond the strawman. I'm looking at WHY the Trump haters hate Trump.

And I've already told you that I DON'T hate Trump.

No, the character issues aren't just nonsense. Trump is his own worst enemy, and he does have character issues. Your pretending that he doesn't is unreasonable. Maybe not as insanely unreasonable as the vicious attacks since the moment he was elected. The fact is that so many--including most of the MSM--were so unhappy with the election result that they never gave Trump a chance. That too is a fact. You need look no further for evidence of this fact than the "daily two-minute hate" threads, some of them ridiculously petty.

But you seem to be the flip side of the same coin. If you deny that Trump doesn't have issues, you're no better than those who have been foaming at the mouth since November 9, 2016 and claiming that he can do no right.
 
And I've already told you that I DON'T hate Trump.

No, the character issues aren't just nonsense. Trump is his own worst enemy, and he does have character issues. Your pretending that he doesn't is unreasonable. Maybe not as insanely unreasonable as the vicious attacks since the moment he was elected. The fact is that so many--including most of the MSM--were so unhappy with the election result that they never gave Trump a chance. That too is a fact. You need look no further for evidence of this fact than the "daily two-minute hate" threads, some of them ridiculously petty.

But you seem to be the flip side of the same coin. If you deny that Trump doesn't have issues, you're no better than those who have been foaming at the mouth since November 9, 2016 and claiming that he can do no right.

His character is an issue only because the Trump haters have made it an issue.

As I pointed out, other Presidents had MUCH greater problems with their character...that was ignored, excused or minimized because the hate wasn't there. Hell, Clinton...the guy who had sex in the Oval Office...was excused by EVERYONE because "a blow job isn't really sex". Obama, the guy who outright lied to the American people about their doctor and their insurance policies, was explained away as "he didn't really mean what he said". And when Obama AND his people outright lied to the American people about Benghazi, the media didn't care.

But hey...let Trump get rid of someone in his Cabinet and he is stupidly bringing about the end of the world as we know it.

So yeah...this character thing is just the tool the Trump haters are using. The real issue is...why do they hate him so much?
 
I don't disagree with that. I also don't deny that there is such a malady as "Trump Derangement Syndrome." "_____ Derangement Syndrome" began with Bush 43, and the Obama version was horrible and stupid and this Trump version just frothing-at-the-mouth insane.

But what you aren't talking about are the regular folks like you and me who also have opinions and reasons for them that have nothing at all to do with power or clout. Trying to stifle or deny that there are valid criticisms to be made of Trump and insisting on a knee-jerk defense is just as irrational as those whose hatred of Trump is unreasoning and pathological. As Goldberg says in his article:

Weirdly, it’s gotten to the point that when I say President Trump is not a man of good character, I feel like I should preface it with a trigger warning for many of my fellow conservatives.

Most of the angry responses are clearly rooted in the fact that they do not wish to be reminded of this obvious truth. But others seem to have convinced themselves that Trump is a man of good character, and they take personal offense at the insult, even though I usually offer it as little more than an observation. They rush to rebut the claim, citing banal or debatable propositions: He loves his children! He’s loyal to a fault! He’s authentic! Never mind that many bad men love their children, that loyalty to people or causes unworthy of loyalty is not admirable, and that authentic caddishness is not admirable. Moreover, he is not remotely loyal to his wives or the people who work for him.

What’s most worrisome is that these defenders are redefining good character in Trump’s image, and they end up modeling it.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/12/trump-character-will-be-his-downfall/

Thank you for sharing this article. I think William Buckley is applauding. Maybe when these very valid observations are made by those who have a vested interest in conservatism some of the intended audience will take a moment and listen.

Though the comment section was quite telling, and as Goldberg states, sadly many people HAVE convinced themselves that Trump is a man of good character when he so obviously demonstrates that he is not.
 
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No. I've already put those comments in their proper place with my first post in this thread.
So why does his lying and spreading false information not bother you?
 
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this "character" nonsense is a strawman erected by Trump haters. I'm saying that you, by focusing on this strawman, are playing into the Trump hater's agenda.

I'm saying I am looking beyond the strawman. I'm looking at WHY the Trump haters hate Trump.

You've spent pages trying to stoke tribalism. Stop sucking up to someone in the hope that maybe they'll change their mind if they know they have an ally.





PS: Trump is a vile pigdog. You hate that I said that, so you will accuse me of "hating" Trump despite the fact that you could easily be accused of "hating" liberals and everything right wing media tells you liberals stand for.
 
Most of these points are fair, but, it wasn't like we haven't been saying this since 2015.

They haven't been listening since somewhere in the early '00s....
 
You are being influenced by the attackers. You are doing your part in the strategy of the people who are threatened by Trump.

They call you their useful idiots.

Nota bene is nobody's "useful idiot". I'm offended that you have the gall to even say such a thing to her. How dare you be so insulting and crass to someone who has never been anything but honest and civil with, well, just about everyone on the forum?

Shame on you.
 
His character is an issue only because the Trump haters have made it an issue.

As I pointed out, other Presidents had MUCH greater problems with their character...that was ignored, excused or minimized because the hate wasn't there. Hell, Clinton...the guy who had sex in the Oval Office...was excused by EVERYONE because "a blow job isn't really sex". Obama, the guy who outright lied to the American people about their doctor and their insurance policies, was explained away as "he didn't really mean what he said". And when Obama AND his people outright lied to the American people about Benghazi, the media didn't care.

But hey...let Trump get rid of someone in his Cabinet and he is stupidly bringing about the end of the world as we know it.

So yeah...this character thing is just the tool the Trump haters are using. The real issue is...why do they hate him so much?

No, Mycroft, not "EVERYONE" excused Clinton's behavior or Obama's. This claim is patently and unfairly not true. The thing is that you want to dismiss any criticism of Trump just as unthinking admirers of Clinton and Obama did. Whether it's knee-jerk criticism or support, it's really unreasonable.

Don't bring the media into this. The MSM slavishly supported Obama and have been just as insensibly against Trump since the election (well, also before it). My point here is that whether you support or refuse to support either one of them, it's unreasonable to dismiss valid criticism. You are just as guilty here as those you condemn.
 
They haven't been listening since somewhere in the early '00s....

Ah, "they" and "we." Your lack of an "us" is every bit as telling as Mycroft's.
 
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this "character" nonsense is a strawman erected by Trump haters. I'm saying that you, by focusing on this strawman, are playing into the Trump hater's agenda.

I'm saying I am looking beyond the strawman. I'm looking at WHY the Trump haters hate Trump.

Because he is a corrupt lying mysogongist narcissist, incapable of entertaining a thought or opinion that is not his own, and imagines he is the most intelligent competent and admirable human to ever breathe air. Oh, yeah, also he is orange. :lol:
 
Most of these points are fair, but, it wasn't like we haven't been saying this since 2015.

They haven't been listening since somewhere in the early '00s....

Ah, "they" and "we." Your lack of an "us" is every bit as telling as Mycroft's.

:lol:




Says the person who is always either defending something from the right or attacking something on the left, but who runs around with an "Independent" lean.

Says the person who puts on a big show of being righteously offended when I name Trump a "vile swine", then takes her ball and goes home after I present a long many-pointed list of things that indicate he is that swine. (And now posts this - "oh wait, actually, he has a bad character!")

Says the person who makes a show of decorum while saying quite demeaning things to those who disagree.





At any rate, it's a very strange subject to use to pretend to be morally superior via an attack on another person. "They", meaning National Review and the people who read it, in fact have not been listening to all the warnings about Trump. They ardently supported him, defended him, and if they couldn't bring themselves to do that they ran into every thread to stink up the air by attacking anyone who criticized Trump. That is an identifiable "they". Am I not allowed to sort people on an issue by what they've said? That puts me below you?

It really is precious that they're now suddenly saying that maybe he is a bad guy. They should be apologizing to all those "leftists" they spend their time attacking. They should be saying "you know what? You were right and I was wrong."

I'm supposed to put people who constantly launch stupid and dishonest attacks on me into an "us"? I'm the same as Mycroft? Did you even think that through? "They" are necessarily the people who didn't listen to what "we", defined by those warning about who Trump is. Why would I call those people "us"?

(And, this includes plenty of people around the middle and some on the right, even here at DP, who strongly opposed and have opposed Trump. "They" didn't listen to those people either).







Good job on leaving the attack to a "wink wink nudge nudge know what I mean?"

Bad job on making it a dishonest attack.
 
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shrug...

Whatever floats your boat.

As I said, the "character" thing stems from hatred. My question is, why the hatred.

The character thing doesn't necessarily stem from hatred. It is an objective observation. While one should give him credit for his achievements, one shouldn't look past the fact that he makes some strange and often vulgar comments. I, for one, am a bit puzzled by his preference in foreign women, and I am not a fan of divorce, although, looking about, being married or not, being divorced or not, being in a hetero/homosexual relationship seems to be no big deal. So are sexual escapades.
Of course we should expect better from the leader of the free world, but herein lies the hypocrisy. We as people want to do what we want whenever we want, and no one better criticize us for it, or else we call the some sort of phobe. What's more, we are quick to judge those who aren't as well spoken, although I suspect millions of us fall into that category, if we speak the same language at all. We are compassionate after all. We also like to criticize crude and foul language, but are so very generous with vulgarity of our own.
So, all in all, criticizing Trump for his character is necessary, esp if it is constructive criticism. How can he improve if one is afraid to speak the truth? As for the rest, I call it shock and awe. (please forgive my choice of words). It almost seems that many are still in shock, in disbelieve, that Trump won the presidency over what one assumed would be a landslide victory. Will we ever be in awe? History will be the judge of that.
So now one is left with 2 choices. Foaming at the mouth as so many did during Obama's presidency...and yes, if it looked foolish to you then, one might want to reflect on that...or just observe the facts, calmly, knowing another election is coming up. I, for one, won't forget the manners my folks taught me. That is something everyone has to decide for him/herself.

"If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you" Friedrich Nietzsche
 
So says Jonah Goldberg, who writes:

Nearly all of the controversies that have bedeviled Trump’s administration are the direct result of his character, not his ideology. To be sure, ideology plays a role, amplifying both the intensity of anger from his left-wing critics and the intensity of his transactional defenders. Many of the liberal critics shrieking about the betrayal of the Kurds implicit in Trump’s decision to withdraw from Syria would be applauding if a President Clinton had made the same decision. And many of the conservatives celebrating the move would be condemning it.

But Trump’s refusal to listen to advisers, his inability to bite his tongue, his demonization and belittling of senators who vote for his agenda but refuse to keep quiet when he does or says things they disagree with, his rants against the First Amendment, his praise for dictators and insults for allies, his need to create new controversies to eclipse old ones, and his inexhaustible capacity to lie and fabricate history: All of this springs from his character. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/12/trump-character-will-be-his-downfall/

All sinners, including Trump and Goldberg, will go down in the coming judgment if they die still unforgiven of their sins.
 
So why does his lying and spreading false information not bother you?

The lying and spreading of false information...not to mention the disgusting characterizations...come solely from the Trump haters. And yes...that bothers me enormously, as it should bother everyone.
 
You've spent pages trying to stoke tribalism. Stop sucking up to someone in the hope that maybe they'll change their mind if they know they have an ally.





PS: Trump is a vile pigdog. You hate that I said that, so you will accuse me of "hating" Trump despite the fact that you could easily be accused of "hating" liberals and everything right wing media tells you liberals stand for.

I've only been presenting facts.
 
Nota bene is nobody's "useful idiot". I'm offended that you have the gall to even say such a thing to her. How dare you be so insulting and crass to someone who has never been anything but honest and civil with, well, just about everyone on the forum?

Shame on you.

So...truth triggers you.

Okay.
 
No, Mycroft, not "EVERYONE" excused Clinton's behavior or Obama's. This claim is patently and unfairly not true. The thing is that you want to dismiss any criticism of Trump just as unthinking admirers of Clinton and Obama did. Whether it's knee-jerk criticism or support, it's really unreasonable.

Don't bring the media into this. The MSM slavishly supported Obama and have been just as insensibly against Trump since the election (well, also before it). My point here is that whether you support or refuse to support either one of them, it's unreasonable to dismiss valid criticism. You are just as guilty here as those you condemn.

The mainstream media and their echo chamber excused Clinton and Obama. That's a fact.

I don't support ANY of the mainstream media.
 
I've only been presenting facts.

Oh, don't worry. Nota bene has cleared things up. We're apparently an "us", and it is partisan to say that any one of us may have been defending Trump and any one of us may have been telling the other one that they were wrong to, in the past.

:roll:

But do keep attacking every single person who is not ardently defending Trump in light of this article, including myself who thinks Trump is a vile swine, thereby proving that it is wrong for me to call you "they"....or something.
 
There are reasons why over 150 high ranking people have left his administration in less than two years.

...By my reckoning, there's really just one: nobody of notably honorable ambition and accomplishment wants to sully themselves and their careers with the stench of him.

Contrast that with this: 300,000 Apply for 3,300 Obama Jobs
 
:lol:
Says the person who is always either defending something from the right or attacking something on the left, but who runs around with an "Independent" lean.

I have explained this many times, but just for you, I will again. When I joined DP I chose "Conservative" as my lean. When I became a mod, I found three GOP elephants added under my name, and because I have never been a member of the Republican Party, I changed that lean to remove the elephants. I am (mainly) a conservative, and this is no secret.

Says the person who puts on a big show of being righteously offended when I name Trump a "vile swine", then takes her ball and goes home after I present a long many-pointed list of things that indicate he is that swine. (And now posts this - "oh wait, actually, he has a bad character!")

It's not a show. I'd say the same thing if you called another President a "vile swine." The problem here is your insult rather than my reaction to it. Maybe you should try dialing down your rhetoric if you hope to persuade others to your point of view.

Says the person who makes a show of decorum while saying quite demeaning things to those who disagree.

:lamo :doh

At any rate, it's a very strange subject to use to pretend to be morally superior via an attack on another person. "They", meaning National Review and the people who read it, in fact have not been listening to all the warnings about Trump. They ardently supported him, defended him, and if they couldn't bring themselves to do that they ran into every thread to stink up the air by attacking anyone who criticized Trump. That is an identifiable "they". Am I not allowed to sort people on an issue by what they've said? That puts me below you?

It really is precious that they're now suddenly saying that maybe he is a bad guy. They should be apologizing to all those "leftists" they spend their time attacking. They should be saying "you know what? You were right and I was wrong."

I'm supposed to put people who constantly launch stupid and dishonest attacks on me into an "us"? I'm the same as Mycroft? Did you even think that through? "They" are necessarily the people who didn't listen to what "we", defined by those warning about who Trump is. Why would I call those people "us"?

(And, this includes plenty of people around the middle and some on the right, even here at DP, who strongly opposed and have opposed Trump. "They" didn't listen to those people either).

Good job on leaving the attack to a "wink wink nudge nudge know what I mean?"

Bad job on making it a dishonest attack.

I'm bored now with you. You obviously don't read NRO; if you did, you would be aware that two of their premier columnists are anti-Trumpers. And you obviously have no genuine interest with discourse with me; if you did, you wouldn't have made a point of being insulting.
 
The character thing doesn't necessarily stem from hatred. It is an objective observation. While one should give him credit for his achievements, one shouldn't look past the fact that he makes some strange and often vulgar comments. I, for one, am a bit puzzled by his preference in foreign women, and I am not a fan of divorce, although, looking about, being married or not, being divorced or not, being in a hetero/homosexual relationship seems to be no big deal. So are sexual escapades.
Of course we should expect better from the leader of the free world, but herein lies the hypocrisy. We as people want to do what we want whenever we want, and no one better criticize us for it, or else we call the some sort of phobe. What's more, we are quick to judge those who aren't as well spoken, although I suspect millions of us fall into that category, if we speak the same language at all. We are compassionate after all. We also like to criticize crude and foul language, but are so very generous with vulgarity of our own.
So, all in all, criticizing Trump for his character is necessary, esp if it is constructive criticism. How can he improve if one is afraid to speak the truth? As for the rest, I call it shock and awe. (please forgive my choice of words). It almost seems that many are still in shock, in disbelieve, that Trump won the presidency over what one assumed would be a landslide victory. Will we ever be in awe? History will be the judge of that.
So now one is left with 2 choices. Foaming at the mouth as so many did during Obama's presidency...and yes, if it looked foolish to you then, one might want to reflect on that...or just observe the facts, calmly, knowing another election is coming up. I, for one, won't forget the manners my folks taught me. That is something everyone has to decide for him/herself.

"If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you" Friedrich Nietzsche

What's wrong with foreign women?

Tell me...are you bothered that one of my brothers married a Japanese woman? Or that one of my sons is in a relationship with a woman from Liberia? Or that my other son was in a relationship with a Hispanic-Filipino woman?

But hey...I'm sure it's okay with you that my gay brother is married to an American, right?

Could there be some underlying racism in YOUR character? Or, is it just "Trump"?
 
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