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Trump Creates The Opportunity and Revitalization Council

JasperL

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It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to convince anyone to put (move?) a private business into an area without the expectation that the business would return a profit. My only objection to such plans is the use of selective federal tax breaks to artificially make that more likely. Crony capitalism is no better simply because of the zip codes involved.

I agree with all that. We'll see how it works out but the fear/risk is developers will build in up and coming neighborhoods, the kind that are regularly "gentrified" now and that didn't need just massive tax breaks to encourage profit-seeking developers to enter into and start buying up and developing property.

When this passed I thought of our own downtown. It's booming now after decades of being a place where you really didn't want to be in after dark. But now that the core downtown is built up, developers are expanding outward to currently pretty depressed areas. That's great and all, but they don't need huge tax breaks to do it. In my own area, the tax breaks might accelerate the process a bit, but doubtful they'll alter the course much.

The hope is developers will go into depressed areas and build affordable housing or put in new business or industry, but if you've got $10 or $100 million, would you risk it in an actually RISKY area, or try like heck to find places you already can predictably make money and just get a big, huge, fat tax break for doing it? The latter of course, and there are no limits and no requirements about where to invest, no allocation process like with some affordable housing programs. Theoretically, everyone could go to NYC in areas there designated for the breaks and every dollar nationwide goes into those little areas, or in similar locations in other big, urban areas that are already designated as hot money locations.
 

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You simply cannot accept a good move when you see one...can you.

It's not that, we just don't trust tax breaks for developers to be written to actually help the poor, rather than developers who spent $millions lobbying for tax breaks....

If you're not skeptical, you've not been paying attention to how government works for the past, oh, say, 200 years or so.
 

ttwtt78640

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I agree with all that. We'll see how it works out but the fear/risk is developers will build in up and coming neighborhoods, the kind that are regularly "gentrified" now and that didn't need just massive tax breaks to encourage profit-seeking developers to enter into and start buying up and developing property.

When this passed I thought of our own downtown. It's booming now after decades of being a place where you really didn't want to be in after dark. But now that the core downtown is built up, developers are expanding outward to currently pretty depressed areas. That's great and all, but they don't need huge tax breaks to do it. In my own area, the tax breaks might accelerate the process a bit, but doubtful they'll alter the course much.

The hope is developers will go into depressed areas and build affordable housing or put in new business or industry, but if you've got $10 or $100 million, would you risk it in an actually RISKY area, or try like heck to find places you already can predictably make money and just get a big, huge, fat tax break for doing it? The latter of course, and there are no limits and no requirements about where to invest, no allocation process like with some affordable housing programs. Theoretically, everyone could go to NYC in areas there designated for the breaks and every dollar nationwide goes into those little areas, or in similar locations in other big, urban areas that are already designated as hot money locations.

The poor are that way because they they lack the skills/education not to be poor - not because of where they currently live. Neither moving the poor out nor moving the rich in is a solution - unless, of course, you simply want to fund more local income redistribution programs.
 

JasperL

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And yet according to all sources, this is designed to revitalize poorer communities.
Nice try but this is a GOOD thing.
I know it bugs you that Trump is doing something GOOD...but don't worry...you'll get over it.

That's not really true - it's designed to give tax breaks to developers. We HOPE it will revitalize poorer communities, and here is the key - THAT WOULD NOT OTHERWISE HAVE BEEN 'REVITALIZED.'

The risk is it rewards with massive tax breaks investments that would have occurred with or without the incentives.

You can go and find out all kinds of data on the Opportunity Zones, and there are roughly 8,700 of them. The problem is illustrated by my area. Knoxville has a river running through it that forms Fort Loudon Lake. Well, the north side of the lake/river is essentially Knoxville and fully developed. The south side is more depressed, but here's the key - the lots along the lake are being built up at a furious pace with homes that start way north of $500k and run into the $millions. Went to a party at one just last month - probably a $2 million home. Here's a map - zoom in on Knoxville if you want to see.

https://www.cims.cdfifund.gov/preparation/?config=config_nmtc.xml

Well, guess what's in a brand new Opportunity Zone? That's right - prime waterfront property! Miles and miles of it in TWO OZs. Now if you're a developer are you going to risk capital in the inner city of Knoxville, or build houses for $millionaires that are in high demand, right now? If you're not stupid, you'll build houses for millionaires, and then put in some high end shops to cater to them, and likely ignore the inner city. Although there are big chunks of Knoxville already gentrifying at a furious pace (you can't see that on the map, but it's happening) that are in OZs and will again reward developers for doing....what they're already doing, with huge money coming in already.
 

JasperL

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Let this thread be a lesson to you. No positive actions by Trump will be tolerated and no good will shall be attributed to any Trump action. Trump is a criminal and the only reason he does anything is to enrich himself and spread hate about racial minorities.

If Trump declared “Free ice cream Friday” they’d find a way to make it out to be a criminal act.

I'd say the lesson is forming a "Council" is about the lamest political move there is. There's no older and more worthless political move than forming something with lofty goals to pretend to be doing something real. Wake us up when this shiny new council does something more than meet and talk.

And as to the Opportunity Zones, there are massive opportunities for fraud and self dealing and gaming the system due to where some of the OZs are located. If you want to ignore all that, fine, whatever, but don't criticize the rest of us for being skeptical that the point of a massive tax break for developers had nothing to do with the poor but giving goodies out to powerful developers, for doing what they'd do anyway.
 

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Sounds like a good idea but as with all things Trump.... check the small print.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
 

JasperL

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Forgive me if this has already been noted, but that's another great example of a biased outlet taking an unfair swipe at the first family. If you go to the article mentioned, and look to the detail, the Kushner Companies (Not Jared or Ivanka, although they are invested in the company), which has many, many properties, happens to have 13 properties that fall within the 8000 designated zones that would qualify under the program. It also points out that the two didn't have any part in selecting the zones - most of which were selected by the governors in the individual states.

So it should be kudos to Kushner Companies for starting to do some investment in these areas without the incentive, and to the couple for championing a cause they were familiar with.

I'm sorry but I don't see why kudos are in order for being the beneficiary of massive tax benefits for doing what developers were ALREADY DOING without massive crony-capitalism tax breaks.
 

What if...?

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It's not me who's twisting in the wind.
Read your posts. Trump does something to help enhance the lives of people in poor areas, and you insist he is doing this for purely selfish reasons.

Allow me to introduce you to something.
What was it that Trump ran on during his campaign? Well...it was Nationalism.
That Globalism has been harmful to the American middle class. That NATO may no longer be necessary. That border security is important enough to build a wall along the southern US border with Mexico. And that Washington has become a swamp that needs to be drained.

Now who do you suppose these ideas rocked to the core? Especially once they realized that..."wholly ****, they actually voted him into office!"
You've been had, my friend. The Washington and Wall Street elite don't give a **** about you, except that you are easily lead and make a useful 'tool' to oppose the very man who's unorthodox methods, pose a MASSIVE threat to their power base. It's actually genius in it's crooked simplicity. But try as they do...there's no "there" there.

Nationalism is a direct threat to Globalism. Trump presents a voice to the millions and millions, in the USA and throughout Europe, who watched on helplessly while their lives were being stripped from them...while their societies were being altered and their cultures being destroyed.

You been had...twist on that.

Trump SAYS he does something that helps the poor.

Signed a paper that SAYS it does.

Trump SAYS lots of things. Many of which are bull****.

Similar initiatives in the past SAID they were going to make life better in poor communities.

What they didn't say was they meant better for the developers and better for the new residents who could afford to live there after those improvements were made.

As I said. I will believe it when I see it. And give credit where credit is due.

But I am not giving credit for mere words.
 

Buzz62

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It's not that, we just don't trust tax breaks for developers to be written to actually help the poor, rather than developers who spent $millions lobbying for tax breaks....

If you're not skeptical, you've not been paying attention to how government works for the past, oh, say, 200 years or so.

I do have some scepticism. But I'm not willing to crap all over this over things that have yet to show themselves.
As it stands now...this was a good move. I sincerely hope if works out well for everyone.
 

Buzz62

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That's not really true - it's designed to give tax breaks to developers. We HOPE it will revitalize poorer communities, and here is the key - THAT WOULD NOT OTHERWISE HAVE BEEN 'REVITALIZED.'

The risk is it rewards with massive tax breaks investments that would have occurred with or without the incentives.

You can go and find out all kinds of data on the Opportunity Zones, and there are roughly 8,700 of them. The problem is illustrated by my area. Knoxville has a river running through it that forms Fort Loudon Lake. Well, the north side of the lake/river is essentially Knoxville and fully developed. The south side is more depressed, but here's the key - the lots along the lake are being built up at a furious pace with homes that start way north of $500k and run into the $millions. Went to a party at one just last month - probably a $2 million home. Here's a map - zoom in on Knoxville if you want to see.

https://www.cims.cdfifund.gov/preparation/?config=config_nmtc.xml

Well, guess what's in a brand new Opportunity Zone? That's right - prime waterfront property! Miles and miles of it in TWO OZs. Now if you're a developer are you going to risk capital in the inner city of Knoxville, or build houses for $millionaires that are in high demand, right now? If you're not stupid, you'll build houses for millionaires, and then put in some high end shops to cater to them, and likely ignore the inner city. Although there are big chunks of Knoxville already gentrifying at a furious pace (you can't see that on the map, but it's happening) that are in OZs and will again reward developers for doing....what they're already doing, with huge money coming in already.

Why don't we all just watch and see if this thing has any positive impact, before we pass judgement on it...huh?
 

Buzz62

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Trump SAYS he does something that helps the poor.

Signed a paper that SAYS it does.

Trump SAYS lots of things. Many of which are bull****.

Similar initiatives in the past SAID they were going to make life better in poor communities.

What they didn't say was they meant better for the developers and better for the new residents who could afford to live there after those improvements were made.

As I said. I will believe it when I see it. And give credit where credit is due.

But I am not giving credit for mere words.

Its something...which is better than nothing.
Lets see if something good comes of it...shall we?
 

JasperL

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Why don't we all just watch and see if this thing has any positive impact, before we pass judgement on it...huh?

We don't have much choice. I'm just giving you a very concrete reason why some of us are incredibly skeptical, and how we in fact KNOW huge chunks of the tax breaks will go to developers for doing nothing they weren't doing before the tax break, and that will at best be a crony capitalism giveaway.

The other downside is in these hot areas included in OZ's that the tax breaks provide an artificial boost in demand for property, and drive up real estate prices even further than they would have been. That's great for owners of real estate but not so great for the poor who will pay higher rents.

So there's not even a promise or guarantee that the provisions will merely be worthless to the poor. There's a real risk in many areas it will drive prices further out of reach. Bottom line is we can't know yet, but if you're not VERY skeptical you're not paying any attention to the real world and what drives tax policy in D.C. When I look at the map for my area and see miles and miles of prime waterfront property in OZs, but not the more depressed areas next door that don't include prime waterfront property, all my fears were confirmed.
 

ttwtt78640

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We don't have much choice. I'm just giving you a very concrete reason why some of us are incredibly skeptical, and how we in fact KNOW huge chunks of the tax breaks will go to developers for doing nothing they weren't doing before the tax break, and that will at best be a crony capitalism giveaway.

The other downside is in these hot areas included in OZ's that the tax breaks provide an artificial boost in demand for property, and drive up real estate prices even further than they would have been. That's great for owners of real estate but not so great for the poor who will pay higher rents.

So there's not even a promise or guarantee that the provisions will merely be worthless to the poor. There's a real risk in many areas it will drive prices further out of reach. Bottom line is we can't know yet, but if you're not VERY skeptical you're not paying any attention to the real world and what drives tax policy in D.C. When I look at the map for my area and see miles and miles of prime waterfront property in OZs, but not the more depressed areas next door that don't include prime waterfront property, all my fears were confirmed.

Local (political/government) leaders like the accelerated gentrification and the associated boost in local property tax revenues that soon follow. What has yet to be explained is how it helps the poor do anything other than get out of the way.
 

Buzz62

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We don't have much choice. I'm just giving you a very concrete reason why some of us are incredibly skeptical, and how we in fact KNOW huge chunks of the tax breaks will go to developers for doing nothing they weren't doing before the tax break, and that will at best be a crony capitalism giveaway.

The other downside is in these hot areas included in OZ's that the tax breaks provide an artificial boost in demand for property, and drive up real estate prices even further than they would have been. That's great for owners of real estate but not so great for the poor who will pay higher rents.

So there's not even a promise or guarantee that the provisions will merely be worthless to the poor. There's a real risk in many areas it will drive prices further out of reach. Bottom line is we can't know yet, but if you're not VERY skeptical you're not paying any attention to the real world and what drives tax policy in D.C. When I look at the map for my area and see miles and miles of prime waterfront property in OZs, but not the more depressed areas next door that don't include prime waterfront property, all my fears were confirmed.

Ya developers will gain over this. And I think that was to be expected...no?
Let's see what happens, before we start howling about "bad Trump"...huh?
 

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Ya developers will gain over this. And I think that was to be expected...no?
Let's see what happens, before we start howling about "bad Trump"...huh?

For the record, I'm not blaming Trump, just not handing out high fives here. People I know well are already gathering data to do the studies on the impact of the law. It will be what it will be, and we'll know a lot more in a couple of years when the first returns are filed claiming these tax incentives.
 

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For the record, I'm not blaming Trump, just not handing out high fives here. People I know well are already gathering data to do the studies on the impact of the law. It will be what it will be, and we'll know a lot more in a couple of years when the first returns are filed claiming these tax incentives.

I want to know if this provides any real relief to those poorer areas. I could care less if developers make some cash doing this, as long as the benefit is there.
As I see and read this, it's an attempt to do so. I'll be suitably pissed if the benefit does not happen. But I'm not gonna just **** all over it before I know. That's identity politics at play.
 

JasperL

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I want to know if this provides any real relief to those poorer areas. I could care less if developers make some cash doing this, as long as the benefit is there.
As I see and read this, it's an attempt to do so. I'll be suitably pissed if the benefit does not happen. But I'm not gonna just **** all over it before I know. That's identity politics at play.

It's law and the tax freebies are going to be flying out the door, so I also hope it works out. I really do - hope I'm shocked about the impact.

I disagree that being highly skeptical to the point of dismissiveness is "identity politics" at work. For me it's just a function of reading the law and looking at the map in my area, and I would bet a nickel I can tell you where the VAST majority of local money will go, and it's in already hot areas. I might lose my nickel but that doesn't make my bet irrational or a matter of TDS, just me recognizing how corrupt tax writing is in D.C., same as it ever was....
 

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It's law and the tax freebies are going to be flying out the door, so I also hope it works out. I really do - hope I'm shocked about the impact.

I disagree that being highly skeptical to the point of dismissiveness is "identity politics" at work. For me it's just a function of reading the law and looking at the map in my area, and I would bet a nickel I can tell you where the VAST majority of local money will go, and it's in already hot areas. I might lose my nickel but that doesn't make my bet irrational or a matter of TDS, just me recognizing how corrupt tax writing is in D.C., same as it ever was....

Tell ya what. Just for fun...I take that bet.
1 nickel that the VAST majority of the local money, does not go to the area you have in mind.
Send me a pic again, and we'll track this.
 

JasperL

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Tell ya what. Just for fun...I take that bet.
1 nickel that the VAST majority of the local money, does not go to the area you have in mind.
Send me a pic again, and we'll track this.

We'll revisit it when the studies are done if you want...
 

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Ya that is part of it, but I really think the root of their issue is Trump himself.
They hate him with a passion that's scary.
Not at all scary. Matter of fact this hatred has made him stronger and aggressive in making things work. There is nothing the player haters can do but bark.
 

Buzz62

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We'll revisit it when the studies are done if you want...

Yes of course. But how do I know you'll be honest about the areas of the city you are concerned with?
 

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Not at all scary. Matter of fact this hatred has made him stronger and aggressive in making things work. There is nothing the player haters can do but bark.

They can evidently roast whoever they like with whatever methods they wish.
 

JasperL

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Yes of course. But how do I know you'll be honest about the areas of the city you are concerned with?

You won't actually. But what I suspect is the data will be similar here and elsewhere. We'll see.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong and the money does some good. Human nature being what it is, my expectations aren't high.
 
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