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Trump and his supporters have forgotten what it means to be American

Glen Contrarian

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There was a time when espionage by a foreign power against any high-ranking government official was considered espionage against not just that individual, but against the entire United States of America.

There was a time when encouraging our enemies to do so was considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. In peacetime, it is (I think) accessory to a federal crime.

There was a time when it was a given - for all political parties - that our internal politics ended at our borders, that it was considered near-unforgivable to go behind the president's back and encourage actions by those other nations that were not in the best interest of the United States - and encouraging ANY other nation, even our best allies, to get involved in our national elections is about as UNpatriotic as it gets.

Trump and those who support him have forgotten what democracy is. Unless Trump is in the White House, he - and his supporters - do NOT get to determine what the foreign policy should be.

I understand how much the Trump supporters on DP (and I refuse to call them conservatives - they're NOT) hate Hillary Clinton - they're simply unable to ever conceive that she might not be as 100% guilty as they believe. But it does. not. matter. how much they hate her, how terrible they think she is, it gives no one ANY excuse to encourage another nation - least of all RUSSIA, which is headed by a former head of the freaking KGB - to conduct espionage inside our borders, much less to influence our election.

What Trump did was shameful beyond words. I cannot imagine any Republican president of bygone years - even Nixon - approving what Trump said. Maybe it's okay with the Trump supporters to have other nations determine who our president is...but if so, then they've forgotten what it means to be American.
 
There was a time when espionage by a foreign power against any high-ranking government official was considered espionage against not just that individual, but against the entire United States of America.

There was a time when encouraging our enemies to do so was considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. In peacetime, it is (I think) accessory to a federal crime.

There was a time when it was a given - for all political parties - that our internal politics ended at our borders, that it was considered near-unforgivable to go behind the president's back and encourage actions by those other nations that were not in the best interest of the United States - and encouraging ANY other nation, even our best allies, to get involved in our national elections is about as UNpatriotic as it gets.

Trump and those who support him have forgotten what democracy is. Unless Trump is in the White House, he - and his supporters - do NOT get to determine what the foreign policy should be.

I understand how much the Trump supporters on DP (and I refuse to call them conservatives - they're NOT) hate Hillary Clinton - they're simply unable to ever conceive that she might not be as 100% guilty as they believe. But it does. not. matter. how much they hate her, how terrible they think she is, it gives no one ANY excuse to encourage another nation - least of all RUSSIA, which is headed by a former head of the freaking KGB - to conduct espionage inside our borders, much less to influence our election.

What Trump did was shameful beyond words. I cannot imagine any Republican president of bygone years - even Nixon - approving what Trump said. Maybe it's okay with the Trump supporters to have other nations determine who our president is...but if so, then they've forgotten what it means to be American.

Didn't Obama tell Romney it wasn't the 1980s when he warned us about Russia? He sure did. And with the reset Hillary did why would Russia hurt her?

And bygone years had no cyber crimes or intrusions. And America, as I am sure you could tell us, does the same. If Russian intelligence has something that proves Hillary is a criminal wouldn't you rather it came out now? Or have Russia blackmail her if elected?

And your title is an insult.
 
There was a time when espionage by a foreign power against any high-ranking government official was considered espionage against not just that individual, but against the entire United States of America


In order to be espionage, Russia would have to be collecting state secrets.

What state secrets would be in Clinton's personal email server, contrary to multiple federal laws? :)


encouraging ANY other nation, even our best allies, to get involved in our national elections is about as UNpatriotic as it gets.

You mean like back in 2004 when they organized a campaign for Brits to write people in Ohio to vote for Kerry?

I understand how much the Trump supporters on DP (and I refuse to call them conservatives - they're NOT)

:) Thank you for that. I'm glad to see that that is apparent to people on the other side of the aisle.

least of all RUSSIA, which is headed by a former head of the freaking KGB - to conduct espionage inside our borders, much less to influence our election.

What Trump did was shameful beyond words. I cannot imagine any Republican president of bygone years - even Nixon - approving what Trump said.

1. The 1980s called and they want their foreign policy back.

2. Because the 1980s were when Senator Ted Kennedy asked the Soviets to interfere in the 1984 Presidential election.
 
Foreign Elite have long hated Trump as much as our own, of course they are jumping on him about this, but when most of what they are saying is dishonest blabbering I move along, I know what this is.
 
There was a time when espionage by a foreign power against any high-ranking government official was considered espionage against not just that individual, but against the entire United States of America.

There was a time when encouraging our enemies to do so was considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. In peacetime, it is (I think) accessory to a federal crime.

There was a time when it was a given - for all political parties - that our internal politics ended at our borders, that it was considered near-unforgivable to go behind the president's back and encourage actions by those other nations that were not in the best interest of the United States - and encouraging ANY other nation, even our best allies, to get involved in our national elections is about as UNpatriotic as it gets.

Trump and those who support him have forgotten what democracy is. Unless Trump is in the White House, he - and his supporters - do NOT get to determine what the foreign policy should be.

I understand how much the Trump supporters on DP (and I refuse to call them conservatives - they're NOT) hate Hillary Clinton - they're simply unable to ever conceive that she might not be as 100% guilty as they believe. But it does. not. matter. how much they hate her, how terrible they think she is, it gives no one ANY excuse to encourage another nation - least of all RUSSIA, which is headed by a former head of the freaking KGB - to conduct espionage inside our borders, much less to influence our election.

What Trump did was shameful beyond words. I cannot imagine any Republican president of bygone years - even Nixon - approving what Trump said. Maybe it's okay with the Trump supporters to have other nations determine who our president is...but if so, then they've forgotten what it means to be American.

Maybe he did it so we would all forget that he called a judge biased because of his heritage alone.

Or maybe he did it so we'd forget he actually said he would both implement torture and commit war crimes by killing terrorists families.

Or maybe he's just an idiot and knows his supporters are stupider than he is.
 
Trump. Was. Joking. :roll:

Ever hear of sarcasm? Sheesh! :doh

The real estate mogul sought throughout the tense news conference to distance himself from allegations that the Russian government hacked into the DNC's internal emails to benefit his campaign, which Clinton's campaign manager suggested earlier this week.

“It is so far-fetched. It's so ridiculous. Honestly, I wish I had that power. I'd love to have that power but Russia has no respect for our country,” Trump said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-attacks-asks-russia-to-hack-clintons-emails/
 
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I was less than thrilled to see him back down on this.

Are you kidding me? The DNC and the Media are pushing a "Trump's in bed with Putin" meme in order to draw attention away from the DNC crap-fest of damning emails.

Trump being Trump responded with sarcasm...which as we see was immediately twisted in the worst way possible.

Of course he'd back away, since he never meant it seriously in the first place.
 
Are you kidding me? The DNC and the Media are pushing a "Trump's in bed with Putin" meme in order to draw attention away from the DNC crap-fest of damning emails.

Trump being Trump responded with sarcasm...which as we see was immediately twisted in the worst way possible.

Of course he'd back away, since he never meant it seriously in the first place.

I need to watch the tape, clearly.
 
He didn't look joking.

And it definitely wasn't a Presidential joke, if indeed it was a joke (even the Fox convention anchors didn't seem to think it was a joke).

I've had the advantage of literally growing up all over the nation, first as an Air Force brat, then as a member of the U.S. Army. But fully 1/4 of my life was spent growing up and living in NYC.

New Yorker's don't take any crap. They'll come right back at you typically with sarcasm, trying to turn what you say about them back against you.

That's all he did. He's done this before, and people should realize by now that this is part of his style. Unscripted, in-your-face, I ain't takin your crap responses.

I cited a quote from the article regarding allegations he encouraged Putin to hack Hillary (as if Putin doesn't have his own reasons for messing about in our politics):

It is so far-fetched. It's so ridiculous. Honestly, I wish I had that power. I'd love to have that power but Russia has no respect for our country,” Trump said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-attacks-asks-russia-to-hack-clintons-emails/

Now nay-sayers can buy whatever his opponents are selling. In this case, I'm not.
 
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I've had the advantage of literally growing up all over the nation, first as an Air Force brat, then as a member of the U.S. Army. But fully 1/4 of my life was spent growing up and living in NYC.

New Yorker's don't take any crap. They'll come right back at you typically with sarcasm, trying to turn what you say about them back against you.

That's all he did. He's done this before, and people should realize by now that this is part of his style. Unscripted, in-your-face, I ain't takin your crap responses.

I cited a quote from the article regarding allegations he encouraged Putin to hack Hillary (as if Putin doesn't have his own reasons for messing about in our politics):



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-attacks-asks-russia-to-hack-clintons-emails/

Now nay-sayers can buy whatever his opponents are selling. In this case, I'm not.
I can't access that article, but at the least it's clear Trump is not (yet/if ever) capable of acting Presidential.
 
In order to be espionage, Russia would have to be collecting state secrets.

What state secrets would be in Clinton's personal email server, contrary to multiple federal laws? :)




You mean like back in 2004 when they organized a campaign for Brits to write people in Ohio to vote for Kerry?



:) Thank you for that. I'm glad to see that that is apparent to people on the other side of the aisle.



1. The 1980s called and they want their foreign policy back.

2. Because the 1980s were when Senator Ted Kennedy asked the Soviets to interfere in the 1984 Presidential election.

So let's say the story about Kennedy is 100% legit, and that there's no need whatsoever to hear the other side of the story. All that excuses Trump...how?

It doesn't. Not one whit.
 
So let's say the story about Kennedy is 100% legit, and that there's no need whatsoever to hear the other side of the story.

After the Soviet Union fell, we got a lot of their documents - including, IIRC, the letter he sent.

All that excuses Trump...how?

:) Let's just say I see a lot of excuse making and double standards on this issue. When president Obama went to casually threaten the Brits not to vote for Brexit, for example, not a lot of upset liberals.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
 
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After the Soviet Union fell, we got a lot of their documents - including, IIRC, the letter he sent.

The Kennedy story is BS.

Google it.

You'll find it on lots of wingnut sites- but not real news sites on history sites.

From what I can tell, there is no Kennedy letter, just a story about the Kennedy letter from an ex-KGB guy....not real solid evidence.

But, boy, the right wingers love it, and it goes from third hand information to 'we got the letter he sent' really fast.
 
The Kennedy story is BS.

Google it.

You'll find it on lots of wingnut sites- but not real news sites on history sites.

From what I can tell, there is no Kennedy letter, just a story about the Kennedy letter from an ex-KGB guy....not real solid evidence.

But, boy, the right wingers love it, and it goes from third hand information to 'we got the letter he sent' really fast.

It is unlikely Chebrikov would have written his memo without an actual letter.

[h=3]Viktor Chebrikov, 76, Leader Of K.G.B. in Spying Heyday - NYTimes.com[/h]www.nytimes.com/.../viktor-chebrikov-76-leader-of-kgb-in-spy...


The New York Times


Jul 5, 1999 - Viktor M. Chebrikov, who led the Soviet K.G.B. through much of its final tumultuous confrontation with the West in the 1980's, died unexpectedly ...
 
It is unlikely Chebrikov would have written his memo without an actual letter.

[h=3]Viktor Chebrikov, 76, Leader Of K.G.B. in Spying Heyday - NYTimes.com[/h]www.nytimes.com/.../viktor-chebrikov-76-leader-of-kgb-in-spy...


The New York Times


Jul 5, 1999 - Viktor M. Chebrikov, who led the Soviet K.G.B. through much of its final tumultuous confrontation with the West in the 1980's, died unexpectedly ...
Yeah, but the New York Times is s right wingnut rag...


I notice he also skipped past Ohio in 2004, and Obama this year.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, but the New York Times is s right wingnut rag...


I notice he also skipped past Ohio in 2004, and Obama this year.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

You realize that the NYT article bolsters my case, right?

A long obit on the guy who revealed Kennedy was trying to throw the 1984 election DOESNT mention your BS story at all.

Protip: never believe JH cut/paste and run posts.
 
There was a time when espionage by a foreign power against any high-ranking government official was considered espionage against not just that individual, but against the entire United States of America.

What espionage by a foreign power against what high-ranking government official.

Even if you buy into the idiotic notion that Trump was calling for a "hack", at best he was calling for a "hack" against a private citizen's (Hillary holds no political position at the moment) private, non-work related emails (based on her testimony of what the 30,000 missing emails contained).

There was a time when encouraging our enemies to do so was considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. In peacetime, it is (I think) accessory to a federal crime.

So wait, Russia is our enemy now? Because claims such as this got laughed at and ridiculed just 4 years ago. Glad to see people on board with that notion all of a sudden.

None of which changes there was no actual call for hacking or espionage in the first place.

There was a time when it was a given - for all political parties - that our internal politics ended at our borders

I actually agree, which is why I found Trump's joking to be uncalled for and careless, and something in general that is poor form to do in a race. Then again, I'm not a fan of us mucking around in the political racies of allies, like having widely condemning a Prime Minster while you're former field director travels to a different country in order to run a grassroots effort to oust him.

Trump and those who support him have forgotten what democracy is.

Hyperbole alert.
 
The Kennedy story is BS.

Google it.

You'll find it on lots of wingnut sites- but not real news sites on history sites.

Forbes:

Picking his way through the Soviet archives that Boris Yeltsin had just thrown open, in 1991 Tim Sebastian, a reporter for the London Times, came across an arresting memorandum. Composed in 1983 by Victor Chebrikov, the top man at the KGB, the memorandum was addressed to Yuri Andropov, the top man in the entire USSR. The subject: Sen. Edward Kennedy.

“On 9-10 May of this year,” the May 14 memorandum explained, “Sen. Edward Kennedy’s close friend and trusted confidant [John] Tunney was in Moscow.” (Tunney was Kennedy’s law school roommate and a former Democratic senator from California.) “The senator charged Tunney to convey the following message, through confidential contacts, to the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Y. Andropov.”

Kennedy’s message was simple. He proposed an unabashed quid pro quo. Kennedy would lend Andropov a hand in dealing with President Reagan. In return, the Soviet leader would lend the Democratic Party a hand in challenging Reagan in the 1984 presidential election.

:roll:

And don't think I don't see you continuing to ignore the fact that liberals had zero problem with Brits trying to influence the 2004 election, or Obama trying to influence the Brexit Referendum.
 
Forbes:



:roll:

And don't think I don't see you continuing to ignore the fact that liberals had zero problem with Brits trying to influence the 2004 election, or Obama trying to influence the Brexit Referendum.

Again, you just linked an article from a guy who works for the Hoover Institute, a right wing think tank, who writes a column for Forbes.

This story DOES NOT exist in real media and also, most tellingly, in historical reviews.

And while I understand you'd like to move off this topic and go to 2004, I'd just like to establish your first claim is basically total bull****, and you should be right embarrassed to defend it.
 
Are you kidding me? The DNC and the Media are pushing a "Trump's in bed with Putin" meme in order to draw attention away from the DNC crap-fest of damning emails.

Trump being Trump responded with sarcasm...which as we see was immediately twisted in the worst way possible.

Of course he'd back away, since he never meant it seriously in the first place.

"in order to draw attention away from the DNC crap-fest of damning emails" This is a certainty.

"which as we see was immediately twisted in the worst way possible"
So in other words, standard operating procedure for the biased leftist media then?
We also have seen the antithesis of this, in their not do that to anyone they ideologically agree with as well.
 
Didn't Obama tell Romney it wasn't the 1980s when he warned us about Russia? He sure did. And with the reset Hillary did why would Russia hurt her?

Which is supposed to be the same as inviting Russia to hack our government?

I don't care if Russia would do it with or without an invitation, that's just not a Presidential thing to say. Not at all. And you know perfectly damn well that if Obama had said it, roughly 50% of Americans would die from an exploded head.

But Trump says it, so it's cool.



Trump. Was. Joking.

That defense stops working after the hundredth time someone has to use it on Trump's behalf...
 
Which is supposed to be the same as inviting Russia to hack our government?

I don't care if Russia would do it with or without an invitation, that's just not a Presidential thing to say. Not at all. And you know perfectly damn well that if Obama had said it, roughly 50% of Americans would die from an exploded head.

But Trump says it, so it's cool.





That defense stops working after the hundredth time someone has to use it on Trump's behalf...

Please do not talk about double standards to me. You use the same tired argument everyone else does. And if the FBI cannot recover those destroyed e-mails do you think Russia can? I would put more money on China having them. When Trump asks them, let me know.
 
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