Trump and his supporters have forgotten what it means to be American

[Glen Contrarian]

It was clear to me from the first that Trump was speaking sarcastically, and I don't think his remark was a serious problem. Hillary created the issue and bears full responsibility.

If you really, truly think he was being sarcastic when he was speaking in what (for Trump) was calm, measured tones - especially after one of the reporters at the time asked him to clarify, and Trump answered that he was being quite serious - then you need to get your sarcasm detector fixed.

 

[blackjack50]

There was a time when espionage by a foreign power against any high-ranking government official was considered espionage against not just that individual, but against the entire United States of America.

There was a time when encouraging our enemies to do so was considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. In peacetime, it is (I think) accessory to a federal crime.

There was a time when it was a given - for all political parties - that our internal politics ended at our borders, that it was considered near-unforgivable to go behind the president's back and encourage actions by those other nations that were not in the best interest of the United States - and encouraging ANY other nation, even our best allies, to get involved in our national elections is about as UNpatriotic as it gets.

Trump and those who support him have forgotten what democracy is. Unless Trump is in the White House, he - and his supporters - do NOT get to determine what the foreign policy should be.

I understand how much the Trump supporters on DP (and I refuse to call them conservatives - they're NOT) hate Hillary Clinton - they're simply unable to ever conceive that she might not be as 100% guilty as they believe. But it does. not. matter. how much they hate her, how terrible they think she is, it gives no one ANY excuse to encourage another nation - least of all RUSSIA, which is headed by a former head of the freaking KGB - to conduct espionage inside our borders, much less to influence our election.

What Trump did was shameful beyond words. I cannot imagine any Republican president of bygone years - even Nixon - approving what Trump said. Maybe it's okay with the Trump supporters to have other nations determine who our president is...but if so, then they've forgotten what it means to be American.

Of what trump SAID

Not what he did? So you have no proof of espionage? Do you think any past presidents would have approved of what HILLARY did?


Sent from my grapefruit using smoke signals.

 

[Jack Hays]

If you really, truly think he was being sarcastic when he was speaking in what (for Trump) was calm, measured tones - especially after one of the reporters at the time asked him to clarify, and Trump answered that he was being quite serious - then you need to get your sarcasm detector fixed.

I saw/heard the remark myself. Definitely sarcastic.

 

[blackjack50]

If you really, truly think he was being sarcastic when he was speaking in what (for Trump) was calm, measured tones - especially after one of the reporters at the time asked him to clarify, and Trump answered that he was being quite serious - then you need to get your sarcasm detector fixed.

Hillary bears no responsibility on stepping on her dick huh? Amazing the lengths democrat apologists will go to blame someone else for the **** ups they committed.


Sent from my grapefruit using smoke signals.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Hillary bears no responsibility on stepping on her dick huh? Amazing the lengths democrat apologists will go to blame someone else for the **** ups they committed.


Sent from my grapefruit using smoke signals.

You probably haven't personally seen it, but I've stated quite a few times already - including in this thread - that what she did was make a stupid mistake...and that's precisely what it was. And she admitted it was a mistake.

But HER mistake in NO way excuses Trump for trying to get Russia to use her mistake to influence our national election.

And what really gets me is that I'm having to explain that fact to people who call themselves 'conservative'.

 

[RetiredUSN]

I don't excuse someone doing the wrong thing by pointing at someone else who also did a wrong thing. But when the complaints of wrongdoing become rather silly - like when that one virtually unknown IRS functionary appeared to target conservative groups, and the Right convinced itself overnight that it was all part of a grand scheme by the Obama administration - I've got no problem showing y'all just how silly such accusations are.

Understood.......

But ?

I don't see many conservatives marching around saying America Sucks..................like the left wingers do.

I tend to agree with you on many things, but at the same time, you can drive me crazy much like my democrat sister does.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I saw/heard the remark myself. Definitely sarcastic.

I saw it too...and like I said, if you really, truly think he was being sarcastic, then the problem's with your sarcasm detector - it's giving you false positives...

...come to think of it, since you're so eager to believe almost anything that climate deniers claim, then maybe the problem's not with your sarcasm detector, but your BS detector. It's probably clogged. You should get that checked.

 

[Jack Hays]

You probably haven't personally seen it, but I've stated quite a few times already - including in this thread - that what she did was make a stupid mistake...and that's precisely what it was. And she admitted it was a mistake.

But HER mistake in NO way excuses Trump for trying to get Russia to use her mistake to influence our national election.

And what really gets me is that I'm having to explain that fact to people who call themselves 'conservative'.

Since the Russians would be doing nothing more than releasing emails Hillary gave them -- emails she should have handed over to the Department of State anyway -- I'm not sure they would actually be interfering.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Of what trump SAID

Not what he did? So you have no proof of espionage? Do you think any past presidents would have approved of what HILLARY did?


Sent from my grapefruit using smoke signals.

What Hillary did was a stupid mistake...but it was not a deliberate action like, say, "Russia, if you're listening, if you can find those emails" and then asking Russia to release them in such a way that would influence our national election.

So...like Jack, you're trying to excuse what Trump did by deflecting to Hillary, as if a truly stupid mistake on her part excuses him essentially asking Russia to dig through a former Secretary of State's emails.

And you call yourself conservative. I was one, once - back in the day when conservatives actually stood up for what was right even when it was against their own party's policies (Bush 41). But conservatives today...ain't conservative.

 

[Jack Hays]

I saw it too...and like I said, if you really, truly think he was being sarcastic, then the problem's with your sarcasm detector - it's giving you false positives...

...come to think of it, since you're so eager to believe almost anything that climate deniers claim, then maybe the problem's not with your sarcasm detector, but your BS detector. It's probably clogged. You should get that checked.

Sarcastic or not, his comment was harmless.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Since the Russians would be doing nothing more than releasing emails Hillary gave them -- emails she should have handed over to the Department of State anyway -- I'm not sure they would actually be interfering.

Does that even sound like a reasonable answer to you? I don't think it does. I think you know precisely how full of BS that answer sounds...and I'm pretty offended that you are apparently assuming that I can't see the BS for what it is, even though you can surely see it for yourself.

 

[Jack Hays]

Does that even sound like a reasonable answer to you? I don't think it does. I think you know precisely how full of BS that answer sounds...and I'm pretty offended that you are apparently assuming that I can't see the BS for what it is, even though you can surely see it for yourself.

I don't think it's BS. I think it's the heart of the matter. Take it or leave it.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Understood.......

But ?

I don't see many conservatives marching around saying America Sucks..................like the left wingers do.

I tend to agree with you on many things, but at the same time, you can drive me crazy much like my democrat sister does.

:lol:

Thanks - that's a real compliment!

As to the "America sucks" thing, I see it the other way around, like the Bundys who figured they could ignore federal law 'cause 'Murica, who figure that they're somehow being patriotic by ignoring federal law. That, and I'm sure you recall that in Texas, quite a few people up to and including the governor were talking about secession, and about having to call up the Texas National Guard because Obama was supposedly about to hold something like a military coup down there.

Remember, I used to be a conservative - I happily voted for Reagan and Bush 41. But now I'm having to explain to self-proclaimed 'conservatives' on here that there is NO excuse for Trump inviting Russia - freaking RUSSIA, ruled by a former head of the freaking KGB - to find and publish emails with the clear and unmistakable inference that this would influence our national election!

I mean, really???? I'm having to explain this to conservatives???? Thing is, they aren't really conservatives, not like conservatives in the days of Reagan and Bush 41. Today, they're just nutcases brainwashed by the talk-show pundits and the Religious Right and no longer able to allow themselves to work WITH Democrats or liberals to make things happen!

In all honesty - and I haven't said this before anywhere - I think that I'm still the same conservative that I was when Bush 41 said, no, we're not going to Baghdad. But I think that what happened is that I saw that the GOP and the Right was going so much further to the Right that I couldn't allow myself to go down the same road...so here I am, the same guy, having pretty much the same set of beliefs (except for a few policies like LGBT rights and economic policy) that I was back then...but now, I'm a progressive. Not because I became left-wing...but because the Right's goalpost moved so much farther to the right that instead of being on the 30-yard line on the right, I'm now on the 20-yard line on the left! Heck, I think you already know that to most of the world, even Obama's seen as fairly conservative - as they define conservative.

And to me, the proof of all that is that a 'progressive' like me is having to educate self-proclaimed supposedly-patriotic 'conservatives' (and I'm not referring to you) that it's a VERY bad idea for their presidential nominee to ask Russia to influence our national election! I mean, really? Reagan would be rolling over in his grave!

 

[RetiredUSN]

:lol:

Thanks - that's a real compliment!

As to the "America sucks" thing, I see it the other way around, like the Bundys who figured they could ignore federal law 'cause 'Murica, who figure that they're somehow being patriotic by ignoring federal law. That, and I'm sure you recall that in Texas, quite a few people up to and including the governor were talking about secession, and about having to call up the Texas National Guard because Obama was supposedly about to hold something like a military coup down there.

Remember, I used to be a conservative - I happily voted for Reagan and Bush 41. But now I'm having to explain to self-proclaimed 'conservatives' on here that there is NO excuse for Trump inviting Russia - freaking RUSSIA, ruled by a former head of the freaking KGB - to find and publish emails with the clear and unmistakable inference that this would influence our national election!

I mean, really???? I'm having to explain this to conservatives???? Thing is, they aren't really conservatives, not like conservatives in the days of Reagan and Bush 41. Today, they're just nutcases brainwashed by the talk-show pundits and the Religious Right and no longer able to allow themselves to work WITH Democrats or liberals to make things happen!

In all honesty - and I haven't said this before anywhere - I think that I'm still the same conservative that I was when Bush 41 said, no, we're not going to Baghdad. But I think that what happened is that I saw that the GOP and the Right was going so much further to the Right that I couldn't allow myself to go down the same road...so here I am, the same guy, having pretty much the same set of beliefs (except for a few policies like LGBT rights and economic policy) that I was back then...but now, I'm a progressive. Not because I became left-wing...but because the Right's goalpost moved so much farther to the right that instead of being on the 30-yard line on the right, I'm now on the 20-yard line on the left! Heck, I think you already know that to most of the world, even Obama's seen as fairly conservative - as they define conservative.

And to me, the proof of all that is that a 'progressive' like me is having to educate self-proclaimed supposedly-patriotic 'conservatives' (and I'm not referring to you) that it's a VERY bad idea for their presidential nominee to ask Russia to influence our national election! I mean, really? Reagan would be rolling over in his grave!

The Bundy's......although a poor choice in my opinion for a anti "land hog" representative, did have a very legitimate argument that was ignored for years by the courts for many years due to political reasons. There are countless numbers of complaints filed by ranchers every year because of the BLM...... that go ignored. Ranchers will soon be extinct if the BLM continues with their intrusion on grandfather clause lands.

The Dittohead crowd.......... I do listen to Rush every now and then. He is called "hateful" by the left. I see a fairly intelligent guy who is a entertainer that keeps up on the issues. He offers a satirical prospective that keeps people up on the issues. Is he right (excuse the pun)? I guess it depends on the what side you are on. There are some subjects that he nails to the wood, and others that are quite a reach.

As far as the Russia thing goes........... I kinda believe that it's just Putin tweeking the USA mindset. He knows that there will be a strong knee jerk reaction, and wants to see what comes of it. We do the same thing to him.

 

[Jack Hays]

And to me, the proof of all that is that a 'progressive' like me is having to educate self-proclaimed supposedly-patriotic 'conservatives' (and I'm not referring to you) that it's a VERY bad idea for their presidential nominee to ask Russia to influence our national election! I mean, really? Reagan would be rolling over in his grave!

Ha! RWR would have feigned surprise that the Russians were more careful with Hillary's emails than she herself was. Then he would have invited the Russians to share with the American people what they (the Russians) already knew.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

The Bundy's......although a poor choice in my opinion for a anti "land hog" representative, did have a very legitimate argument that was ignored for years by the courts for many years due to political reasons. There are countless numbers of complaints filed by ranchers every year because of the BLM...... that go ignored. Ranchers will soon be extinct if the BLM continues with their intrusion on grandfather clause lands.

The Dittohead crowd.......... I do listen to Rush every now and then. He is called "hateful" by the left. I see a fairly intelligent guy who is a entertainer that keeps up on the issues. He offers a satirical prospective that keeps people up on the issues. Is he right (excuse the pun)? I guess it depends on the what side you are on. There are some subjects that he nails to the wood, and others that are quite a reach.

As far as the Russia thing goes........... I kinda believe that it's just Putin tweeking the USA mindset. He knows that there will be a strong knee jerk reaction, and wants to see what comes of it. We do the same thing to him.

I can argue the first two positions, but as to the last one, I'm not so much ticked at Putin - heck, he's just doing what he thinks is in the best interest of Russia - who can really blame him? What ticks me off is that the GOP nominee for president essentially invited Russia to influence our national election...and there's self-proclaimed 'conservatives' here on DP who are defending him for doing so! I cannot imagine ANY other Republican president - from Lincoln to Dubya - even thinking to do such a thing! There's no excuse, no excuse at all for what Trump did...but then, he's a few beers short of a six-pack, as more than a few even among the GOP movers and shakers are discovering for themselves.

But why am I - a 'progressive' - having to explain to 'conservatives' why it's a VERY bad idea for the GOP nominee to essentially invite Russia to influence our national election???? And add to that the fact that he's already said he might not defend our NATO allies, and that he had "aid the Ukraine against Russian aggression" removed from the GOP platform!

C'mon! If Hillary had done the same, the Right would be screaming to metaphorically (and in some cases literally) have her head on a platter - and so would I! And I think you know this. It's pretty doggone frustrating...

...but it's like I said before in so many words: the word "conservative" means something completely different today than it did when I was a conservative in the days of Reagan and Bush 41.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Ha! RWR would have feigned surprise that the Russians were more careful with Hillary's emails than she herself was. Then he would have invited the Russians to share with the American people what they (the Russians) already knew.

I will give you that Reagan did say that once Star Wars was developed, we'd give it to the Soviets. But would he essentially invite the Russians to influence our national election? I cannot imagine that he would, no way, no how. That's one place where he would have drawn a line.

 

[Jack Hays]

I will give you that Reagan did say that once Star Wars was developed, we'd give it to the Soviets. But would he essentially invite the Russians to influence our national election? I cannot imagine that he would, no way, no how. That's one place where he would have drawn a line.

Sharing with the American people information the Russians already had would not, in my book, be influencing the election. I doubt RWR would have seen it that way either. To do otherwise would be to enlist the Russians as co-conspirators in Hillary's cover-up.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Sharing with the American people information the Russians already had would not, in my book, be influencing the election. I doubt RWR would have seen it that way either. To do otherwise would be to enlist the Russians as co-conspirators in Hillary's cover-up.

Oh, BS, Jack! Stop that! You know that's not true, but you're expecting me to buy it! As if the Russians would not pick-and-choose which emails they would and would not release, in order to achieve the maximum effect desired...

...in accordance with longstanding Russian tradition of disinformation as part and parcel of military and diplomatic initiatives - Pravda, and all that. Assuming that you were what you claimed - and I've never once said or even inferred that you weren't - you KNOW they would do this...

...which tells me that all you're doing is trying to convince me that they wouldn't when you know damn well that they would.

 

[RetiredUSN]

I can argue the first two positions, but as to the last one, I'm not so much ticked at Putin - heck, he's just doing what he thinks is in the best interest of Russia - who can really blame him? What ticks me off is that the GOP nominee for president essentially invited Russia to influence our national election...and there's self-proclaimed 'conservatives' here on DP who are defending him for doing so! I cannot imagine ANY other Republican president - from Lincoln to Dubya - even thinking to do such a thing! There's no excuse, no excuse at all for what Trump did...but then, he's a few beers short of a six-pack, as more than a few even among the GOP movers and shakers are discovering for themselves.

But why am I - a 'progressive' - having to explain to 'conservatives' why it's a VERY bad idea for the GOP nominee to essentially invite Russia to influence our national election???? And add to that the fact that he's already said he might not defend our NATO allies, and that he had "aid the Ukraine against Russian aggression" removed from the GOP platform!

C'mon! If Hillary had done the same, the Right would be screaming to metaphorically (and in some cases literally) have her head on a platter - and so would I! And I think you know this. It's pretty doggone frustrating...

...but it's like I said before in so many words: the word "conservative" means something completely different today than it did when I was a conservative in the days of Reagan and Bush 41.

I left the republican party after the IRAQ fiasco. I finally recognized that there is very little difference between the 2 parties. Every morning when I step out my front door, I give a nod to all my friends who were left in that crap hole of a place. If I told you how many younger active duty military friends that I have lost.........you would probably call me a bullcrapper.

I am really turned off to both parties and probably will be until I am tits up.

Most folks on here probably think that I am a dyed in the wool conservative, but I am actually a big fan of finding ways to get full health coverage, and finding a better way to get people involved with trades skills, and college.

I grew up in the streets and I see and know what distracts the young ones from excelling today. Nothings changed since the 70's, only the motif.

What I do see that is most destructive to our society, is the politicians who regard polls over thought and actions.

 

[Jack Hays]

Oh, BS, Jack! Stop that! You know that's not true, but you're expecting me to buy it! As if the Russians would not pick-and-choose which emails they would and would not release, in order to achieve the maximum effect desired...

...in accordance with longstanding Russian tradition of disinformation as part and parcel of military and diplomatic initiatives - Pravda, and all that. Assuming that you were what you claimed - and I've never once said or even inferred that you weren't - you KNOW they would do this...

...which tells me that all you're doing is trying to convince me that they wouldn't when you know damn well that they would.

The Russians would know that we know how many emails there were, so we'd spot any discrepancy. The beauty for them would be that their most effective play would be straight down the middle. There are times when less is more. In any case, the mess was made by Hillary.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

The Russians would know that we know how many emails there were, so we'd spot any discrepancy. The beauty for them would be that their most effective play would be straight down the middle. There are times when less is more. In any case, the mess was made by Hillary.

And you know as well as I do that it would. not. matter. that they didn't release all the emails. They wouldn't care if they didn't release all the emails. All they would care about is if the emails they did release had the desired effect.

And you know this already. It's just bothering me no end that you are somehow thinking that I can't see it as well as you can.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I left the republican party after the IRAQ fiasco. I finally recognized that there is very little difference between the 2 parties. Every morning when I step out my front door, I give a nod to all my friends who were left in that crap hole of a place. If I told you how many younger active duty military friends that I have lost.........you would probably call me a bullcrapper.

I am really turned off to both parties and probably will be until I am tits up.

Most folks on here probably think that I am a dyed in the wool conservative, but I am actually a big fan of finding ways to get full health coverage, and finding a better way to get people involved with trades skills, and college.

I grew up in the streets and I see and know what distracts the young ones from excelling today. Nothings changed since the 70's, only the motif.

What I do see that is most destructive to our society, is the politicians who regard polls over thought and actions.

All well said...but our politicians still have to remember that there are certain things they must not say or do...and Trump did cross the line.

 

[clownboy]

All well said...but our politicians still have to remember that there are certain things they must not say or do...and Trump did cross the line.

Indeed, but the particulars are dependent upon what side you're batting for. And no, Trump didn't cross the line, not in what he has actually said (as opposed to the reported interpretations of what he said).

 

[Jack Hays]

And you know as well as I do that it would. not. matter. that they didn't release all the emails. They wouldn't care if they didn't release all the emails. All they would care about is if the emails they did release had the desired effect.

And you know this already. It's just bothering me no end that you are somehow thinking that I can't see it as well as you can.

Please think it through. Every email has both a sender and a recipient. Maybe more than one recipient. It therefore exists in at least two places. Therefore any release would be instantly checkable -- and a discrepancy would collapse the operation's credibility. Thus, the only way the Russians could gain anything would be for the release to be fully legitimate.