Trump’s “Christian” supporters do not follow a central message of Jesus

[Lees]

it does.

i have been on both sides of the fence and understand the Dilemma. if someone is Young Earth, that is fine with me, they believe Genesis and have a fair grasp on what is says. my attitude: carry on and have a great day.

however if you are Gap Theory, then i see you as more of a Realist and want accuracy in how you think. many people are like this and it takes time for figure a lot of things out.

i wish it wasn't this way, but all of Life seems to flow that way.

other things i encourage sheep to look at is ante-Nicene church history and arminian theology. both are locked in together.

the early church taught holiness as a Doctrine, but christians have gotten away from it. when dealing with Calvinists, i inquire if they understand that Calvinism was developed in the 1500's. how did the church miss that Doctrine for 1500 years if it was true.

well they don't know.


with that i try to encourage them to read, 'Life in the Son' by Shank written on a Seminary level regarding the most important doctrine of the christian faith. well people don't like to read, so that generally ends any doctrinal learning of any kind. so back to shallow christianity we go.


blessings Lee

Yes, it is one of those areas where if any disagree with me on the age of the earth, it doesn't mean they are not Christian. Just means we disagree. But I have studied it and am convinced that we don't know the age.

Church history is good to know also. I am not arminian, but neither am I a thorough going Calvinist. I do hold to much of what Calvin taught though. As to the Calvinist doctrine being late, it is the way it is with Biblical doctrines. They come with study of the Bible. And that doctrine came about due to error being taught by the Roman Church. Just like there was no doctrine of the Trinity till after the Church began at Pentecost. The Trinity was certainly in the Scriptures, but there was no doctrine of it. And that doctrine developed due to wrong things that were being taught by some about Jesus. Same with 'end times doctrine'. That is later still. Doctrines usually come about due to errors being taught and they must be contended with.

It is good to know and study doctrine to know and contend with the error. (2 John 7-11) (Rev. 2:14-15) (Rev. 2:24) Just look up 'doctrine' in a concordance and see how important it is, which I'm sure you probably have already.

Thanks.

Lees

 

[Metanoia]

Well, the Son is as much God as the Father and the Holy Spirit. It is what Paul said in (Heb. 1:3). If the Father has a throne, which He does, then He sits also. Doesn't He?

Lees

It is amusing to see how you vaccilate……in #671 you clearly say that the Father is Spirit as opposed to Jesus who is both spirit and physical…..in this post clearly a belief in the Trinity whereas in #671 would seem to indicate a JW understanding…..sort of having it both ways ? The identity of God is hard to pin down….especially when we are told no man has seen God….Moses withstanding….which I take as an experience of radiance.

What can be more important than the 2 great commandments …Matthew 22:36-40 ? The key word in this verse is ‘thy/your’…..it does not say ‘our’……which would mean accepting the God of our religion or our Bible but rather is speaking of the God within you….the idea of which many on here are uncomfortable with…..it is thy heart, thy soul, thy mind….totally personal and an endorsement of your freedom. This freedom applies to every person on earth regardless of any lack of religion or belief. The ‘love your neighbor’ bit is really difficult……many church followers, influenced by politics etc, are encouraged to openly hate and demean their neighbors…..and convince themselves that this is right….even godly……

 

[Lees]

It is amusing to see how you vaccilate……in #671 you clearly say that the Father is Spirit as opposed to Jesus who is both spirit and physical…..in this post clearly a belief in the Trinity whereas in #671 would seem to indicate a JW understanding…..sort of having it both ways ? The identity of God is hard to pin down….especially when we are told no man has seen God….Moses withstanding….which I take as an experience of radiance.

What can be more important than the 2 great commandments …Matthew 22:36-40 ? The key word in this verse is ‘thy/your’…..it does not say ‘our’……which would mean accepting the God of our religion or our Bible but rather is speaking of the God within you….the idea of which many on here are uncomfortable with…..it is thy heart, thy soul, thy mind….totally personal and an endorsement of your freedom. This freedom applies to every person on earth regardless of any lack of religion or belief. The ‘love your neighbor’ bit is really difficult……many church followers, influenced by politics etc, are encouraged to openly hate and demean their neighbors…..and convince themselves that this is right….even godly……

I haven't vaccilated. I didn't say 'as opposed to Jesus' in post #(671). God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. No oppositon. God the Son became Man. No opposition.

Concerning (Matt. 22:36-40): The one asking was a Pharisee. He was asking to tempt Christ to make an error. (Matt. 22:35) Gee, you left that out. And the God the Pharisee is asking about, in tempting Christ with the Bible, is the God of the Bible. Your manipulation of 'thy/your' is a lie.

No, what is recorded in (Matt. 22:36-40) pertains to Jews and their Scripture under the Law. It doesn't pertain to everyone in the whole world.

Lees

 

[Metanoia]

No, what is recorded in (Matt. 22:36-40) pertains to Jews and their Scripture under the Law. It doesn't pertain to everyone in the whole world.

Lees

You seem determined to diminish the meaning of scripture…..insisting on context that is only specific to a narrow group…..In this case you are, in effect, implying that Jesus was leading us into the temptation of judging others…..and as far ‘thy/your’ is a manipulation was that a mistake of Jesus ? Should it be changed to ‘our’ ?

 

[poppopfox]

What can be more important than the 2 great commandments …Matthew 22:36-40 ? The key word in this verse is ‘thy/your’…..it does not say ‘our’……which would mean accepting the God of our religion or our Bible but rather is speaking of the God within you….the idea of which many on here are uncomfortable with…..it is thy heart, thy soul, thy mind….totally personal and an endorsement of your freedom. This freedom applies to every person on earth regardless of any lack of religion or belief. The ‘love your neighbor’ bit is really difficult……many church followers, influenced by politics etc, are encouraged to openly hate and demean their neighbors…..and convince themselves that this is right….even godly……

Like your Inner Buddha.

 

[Lees]

You seem determined to diminish the meaning of scripture…..insisting on context that is only specific to a narrow group…..In this case you are, in effect, implying that Jesus was leading us into the temptation of judging others…..and as far ‘thy/your’ is a manipulation was that a mistake of Jesus ? Should it be changed to ‘our’ ?

Context matters. Do you disagree? The meaning of the passage you used, (Mat. 22:36-40), you gave without (Matt. 22:35). Which put the context in order. "tempting him". It was used to try and trap Jesus in His words. Just like you are doing now in quoting Scripture without giving the whole of Scripture.

Just like Satan does. (Gen. 3:1) "Yea, hath God said...." Somethings never change.

Lees

 

[Logician Man]

Context matters. Do you disagree? The meaning of the passage you used, (Mat. 22:36-40), you gave without (Matt. 22:35). Which put the context in order. "tempting him". It was used to try and trap Jesus in His words. Just like you are doing now in quoting Scripture without giving the whole of Scripture.

Just like Satan does. (Gen. 3:1) "Yea, hath God said...." Somethings never change.

Lees

 

[Metanoia]

Context matters. Do you disagree? The meaning of the passage you used, (Mat. 22:36-40), you gave without (Matt. 22:35). Which put the context in order. "tempting him". It was used to try and trap Jesus in His words. Just like you are doing now in quoting Scripture without giving the whole of Scripture.

When Jesus speaks He speaks to all of us. That is why it is called the gospel. If Jesus criticizes ii speaks to the potential in us as sinners to also be found guilty. Most of his interactions with Pharisees is to expose their hypocrisy…..the very same thing plagues modern day Christians. If we go on and on about context thinking it does not potentially apply to us we become prisoners of pride and will be counted among the blind….who cares if those words were used to trap Jesus ? His response demonstrates the power of the Spirit to inform….if we had been tested would our answer have been as good ?

 

[Daisy]

When Jesus speaks He speaks to all of us. That is why it is called the gospel. If Jesus criticizes ii speaks to the potential in us as sinners to also be found guilty. Most of his interactions with Pharisees is to expose their hypocrisy…..the very same thing plagues modern day Christians. If we go on and on about context thinking it does not potentially apply to us we become prisoners of pride and will be counted among the blind….who cares if those words were used to trap Jesus ? His response demonstrates the power of the Spirit to inform….if we had been tested would our answer have been as good ?

Excellent point...fact is we are tested just as Jesus was by being in the world that belongs to Satan...are our answers as good as his was? Something for me to think about for sure...

 

[Lees]

When Jesus speaks He speaks to all of us. That is why it is called the gospel. If Jesus criticizes ii speaks to the potential in us as sinners to also be found guilty. Most of his interactions with Pharisees is to expose their hypocrisy…..the very same thing plagues modern day Christians. If we go on and on about context thinking it does not potentially apply to us we become prisoners of pride and will be counted among the blind….who cares if those words were used to trap Jesus ? His response demonstrates the power of the Spirit to inform….if we had been tested would our answer have been as good ?

All of Scripture is for the believer, but not all of Scripture applies to the Church. It's important to pay attention to who is being spoken to. Most especially Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. (1 Cor. 10:32)

And the Bible is not to all of us. The truths it contains pertains to all, but it is not written to all.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17) "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God....that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Who does (Matt. 22:29) apply to? "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriputres, nor the power of God."

Lees

 

[Metanoia]

Like your Inner Buddha.

View attachment 67575258

Thank you….a ‘like’ is not enough. A picture is worth a thousand words…..and this made me think of what I mentally associate Buddhism with and it is humbleness. The Bible and respected Christian authors recognize this. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” and supposedly Christians understand the reward of grace. But there is a force at work in Christianity that impedes grace and that is duality…..good and evil, right and wrong, being separate from God…..this force leads to judgment of others which results in pride. One website listed Buddhism as the most humble religion….if there is truly one God are they not the recipients of grace ? A thread on humility would be interesting but in all likelihood would rapidly become defensive and tedious……. Thanks again….

 

[poppopfox]

Thank you….a ‘like’ is not enough. A picture is worth a thousand words…..and this made me think of what I mentally associate Buddhism with and it is humbleness. The Bible and respected Christian authors recognize this. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” and supposedly Christians understand the reward of grace. But there is a force at work in Christianity that impedes grace and that is duality…..good and evil, right and wrong, being separate from God…..this force leads to judgment of others which results in pride. One website listed Buddhism as the most humble religion….if there is truly one God are they not the recipients of grace ? A thread on humility would be interesting but in all likelihood would rapidly become defensive and tedious……. Thanks again….

In Eastern philosophy duality also exists but is considered harmonious. The second verse of the Dao De Jing explains -

(The nourishment of the person)
All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another. Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his instructions without the use of speech. All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership; they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no resting in it (as an achievement).
The work is done, but how no one can see;
'Tis this that makes the power not cease to be.

The symbol (in contemporary form)-

 

[Hawkins]

To your surprise, Biden supporters don't actually have the evidence that he acutally won the votes.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

I said I might give my opinion on taxes and state social services vs charity.

I honestly think it is a fairly simple thing.

When the state taxes me and then uses some of that money for social services I have two main problems with it.

1. This is money being extracted from me against my will. I have no choice or I will go to jail.
2. I have little to no say in where that money goes. It will certainly fund things I do not believe in or agree with.

With charity I have the choice. I give out of free will. And I give to where I feel the spirit guiding me.

Also giving this way can be much more grass roots and community focused. My church, for example does charitable things in my community. Food, clothing, medical needs, and so on. So when I am giving this way I am giving to touch people in my own community.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Lees:

Jesus instructed his followers to pay their taxes by providing the example at Mark 12:14-17. To be no part of the world refers to not getting involved with worldly politics--not voting people into political office. Since I don't vote, I am obeying my Exemplar; therefore, in that sense, I am no part of the world.

Concerning voting, Jesus never commanded us not to vote. Nor did he command us to not be part of politics. And, when you pay your taxes you are operating in the world system. When you go to work you are in the world system. When you obey or break the laws, you are in the world system. When you sit on juries you are part of the world system.

And, in the verses you gave, there is no command for the disciples to not be part of the world. He declared that they are not of the world. (John 17:16) "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." And (John 18:36), "My kingdom is not of this world...."

Really, Lee? Well suppose you explain what Jesus meant when he said to his heavenly father in prayer -- shortly before his execution, mind you -- that his disciples would follow his example and be no part of the world.

John 17:1​

"Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you,

John 17:16​

They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.""


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Lees:

Jesus instructed his followers to pay their taxes by providing the example at Mark 12:14-17. To be no part of the world refers to not getting involved with worldly politics--not voting people into political office. Since I don't vote, I am obeying my Exemplar; therefore, in that sense, I am no part of the world.

Christians are to not love the world. (1 John 2:15) But we are in the world and must function in the world system. And if a Christian happens to live in a country where voting is part of the political process, to refuse to vote means you refusing to use your Christian influence as to how people will live. What a shame.

We do not seek to bring God's kingdom through worldly means. But we should seek to affect the country where we live by our Christian influence.

Right, by being disobedient to your exemplar who instructed his followers not to get involved with worldly politics. Tell me more.

Voting is a privilage, not a law. So do as you wish. But the Christian should vote, and if he wants to, be part of the political system.

Lees

Lees:

Right, a privilege in a world where Jesus said Satan the Devil is the ruler. Keep shooting yourself in the foot.

John 14:30​

"I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me."


And people wonder why no politician has ever been able to cure the world's ills. They can't because Satan the Devil is running the show behind the scenes. He is the puppeteer.


Alter2Ego

 

[Lees]

Really, Lee? Well suppose you explain what Jesus meant when he said to his heavenly father in prayer -- shortly before his execution, mind you -- that his disciples would follow his example and be no part of the world.

John 17:1​

"Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you,

John 17:16​

They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.""


Alter2Ego

Yes, really. If you don't want to make a difference in how you live where you are, you don't have to. But please don't complain about the world situation if you refuse to do nothing about it.

The verses you give do not say to do nothing while we are in the world.

Do you just sit at home and do nothing? Do you go or did you go to public schools? Do you work to obtain money to feed yourself and others? Do you put away savings for a future day? Why would you do any of those woldly things since we are not of the world?

Lees

 

[Daisy]

But please don't complain about the world situation if you refuse to do nothing about it.

lol...because man has made the world a much better place to live in...give me a break...

Do you just sit at home and do nothing? Do you go or did you go to public schools? Do you work to obtain money to feed yourself and others? Do you put away savings for a future day? Why would you do any of those woldly things since we are not of the world?

Do you understand what Paul meant by saying...

"those who buy as those who do not possess, and those making use of the world as those not using it to the full; for the scene of this world is changing." 1 Corinthians 7:30,31

 

[Lees]

lol...because man has made the world a much better place to live in...give me a break...


Do you understand what Paul meant by saying...

"those who buy as those who do not possess, and those making use of the world as those not using it to the full; for the scene of this world is changing." 1 Corinthians 7:30,31

But you still used the world....don't you? You still buy...don't you? You still pay your taxes...don't you? You still call the police when you need to...don't you? But for some reason, some believe they are being worldly in exercising their privilage to vote and have a say in the government they are under. If all Christians thought like that, Kamala Harris would be president today.

Lees

 

[Girlpower]

Here it is:

Matthew 25:40-45​

​

New International Version​

​

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’​

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of THE LEAST OF THESE, you did not do for me.’

Jesus fed the masses when they ran out of food. Trump is shutting down programs that help to feed those on the lower economic scale. People are now starving in Sudan and elsewhere because Trump shut down selected USAID programs. His buddy Netanyahu is purposely starving to death thousands upon thousands of Palestinian children, and Trump is giving tacit approval by looking the other way.

Jesus healed the sick. Trump is shutting down Medicare programs that help economically deprived adults and children to get proper medical care.

Jesus preached an earthly gospel of empathy and compassion towards others. Trump clearly finds such instances to be signs of weakness, he has no use for them, his right-hand man Stephen Miller comes out and says such right out loud, and his “Christian” fundamentalist followers follow along like lemmings and actually find ways to justify such cruelty, as we will soon see. Fact is, it is quite clear that Trump pretty much can’t stand “the least of these” and doesn’t want to be around them or have anything to do with them. Instead, he cuts as many programs designed to help them as he can in order to provide huge tax cuts for himself and his wealthy elite buddies. More pure corruption.

Jesus would not recognize this hateful “Christian” Trumpcult as followers of his message of love and hope. Jesus would harshly criticize them for their utter hypocrisy just as he did with the Pharisees.

The Trump cult has hijacked patriotism and turned it into hateful xenophobia, and has now hijacked religion and turned it into nothing more than a political action committee that is about as far from Jesus-based Christianity as possible.

What medicare programs has he shut down again?

 

[Daisy]

some believe they are being worldly in exercising their privilage to vote and have a say in the government they are under. If all Christians thought like that, Kamala Harris would be president today.

Who cares? Jehovah's will is going to be done regardless...He's got this...

 

[Lees]

Who cares? Jehovah's will is going to be done regardless...He's got this...

Everyone. Your thinking is fractured. No where in Scripture is it indicated that the believer is to do nothing. In every instance God expects His people to move in accordance to His ways, but not to sit and do nothing. Set about to do God's will, but know God is always going to have His will.

Why pray for anything? After all, God's will is going to be done.

Lees

 

[Revelation]

Who cares? Jehovah's will is going to be done regardless...He's got this...

yep, the voting machines and process of elections prolly have very little effect on who is in office. Elections declare 'winners' because they say so, behind the Scenes tells a different story my friends.

.

 

[Daisy]

Everyone. Your thinking is fractured. No where in Scripture is it indicated that the believer is to do nothing. In every instance God expects His people to move in accordance to His ways, but not to sit and do nothing. Set about to do God's will, but know God is always going to have His will.

Why pray for anything? After all, God's will is going to be done.

Lees

So you don't believe God's got this...got it...I pray for God's will to be done...

 

[Revelation]

Everyone. Your thinking is fractured. No where in Scripture is it indicated that the believer is to do nothing.

no you can serve and pray as able. the voting machines most likely decide nothing though.

In every instance God expects His people to move in accordance to His ways, but not to sit and do nothing. Set about to do God's will, but know God is always going to have His will.

yep, serve in government if you are able.

Why pray for anything? After all, God's will is going to be done.

we are commanded to pray without ceasing. so we do.

Lees