Trinity: Fact or Fiction?

[dthmstr254]

Yeah, I knew this would be brought up eventualy. But this passage could be interpreted in several different ways.

The way I take it is that the three beings rule as one king, each of them ruling different areas. They are still 3, as the first sentence tells us. But they work so well together that it seems as if they rule as one. Maybe they all share the throne?

I see how this could be taken in different ways, but the first thing that would come to mind to someone who has never read this before would probably be what I said above. (BTW, doe sit not say in the bible that in marriage, the son leaves his family to become one with his wife? Yet we do not take that literally, do we?)

mix it with John 1:1 "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God." once again you forgot how many verses we can use against you

 

[Peralin]

mix it with John 1:1 "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God." once again you forgot how many verses we can use against you

No, I know you have lots to work with. But so far I've stayed on the defensive. I've just handled the evidence given to me, I havn't even started on my own. I have evidence that Jesus is not God, but I'll get to that later. I'd like to see where this leads us first.

As for the new evidence, I have no good response. Assuming that the translating is accurate, this is definitely saying that Jesus was God (I'm also assuming that by "Word" John meant "Jesus"). So I'll give you this one. That makes 1 point for you!

But my point still stands: Is the trinity based on just a few passages, while there are many passages that show that Jesus wasn't God? I would say that the Trinity is an important belief for Christians (that believe in it), and my reason for starting this thread was to see if they have good reason to believe in the Trinity or not.

And so far I think that they have no good reason, other than 2 bible verses(I'll give you #2 in a minute). Putting so much faith into 2 verses is ridiculous, but we'll see if you can come up with some more.

 

[Peralin]

However, I also think God makes huge allowances for how we attempt to understand Him, and He would not be upset by your conclusion either. :smile:

Thank you, it is good to see that you are not another one of those arrogant Christians. (I do not mean to imply that all Christians are arrogant, but that many are.)

 

[Peralin]

Jhn 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Great findings, Viper. I can't believe the others didn't see this and back you up. It is obvious in these 2 passages that Jesus is considered the same as God. However, should we put all our faith into these two passages that were written over 1900 years ago? I don't think so. Not I.

 

[Peralin]

here is the full verse in context.
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am(YHWH).

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I don't see how this helps your case. My argument still stands that Jesus was actually saying "I am" and not "I am YHWH. It is way too vague to be able to grasp your meaning.

 

[Viper]

Great findings, Viper. I can't believe the others didn't see this and back you up. It is obvious in these 2 passages that Jesus is considered the same as God. However, should we put all our faith into these two passages that were written over 1900 years ago? I don't think so. Not I.

Just 2??? I won't deny Christ!

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Here Stephen calls upon God, praying to Jesus. How can anyone receive his spirit but God?

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Jesus and God as equal, we are to believe in Jesus as we are to believe in the Father. This would go against the commandment not to have any other gods before God.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Christ forgiving sins! Only God can forgive sins.

Micah 5:1-2 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Jesus in the ages and everlasting. This coincides with other passages as well as with John 1:1

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jesus as our judge. Do I really have to look up every passage that says God Judges? I’ll be a very long list.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Hmmmm…..you are to honor Jesus the same way you honor the Father. Again it shows them as equals. If Christ wasn’t God than we wouldn’t be following God’s commandments.

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Christ knows all things. God is the only one that knows all things.

Mat 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as equals. When we baptize in the name of all three, we are placing each one on an equal plain. Placing the Son and the Holy Spirit on an equal plain with the Father would be blasphemy if they weren’t one.

Col 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus forgiving sins, which only God can do. Jesus in the image of God. Jesus creating the world.

Rom 3:22 "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

There is no distinction between The Father and The Son. How can you put your faith in anyone but God?

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Trinity, this one couldn’t be any clearer.

Phl 2:6-9 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Christ in the form of God, also equal to God.

 

[Viper]

In Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

In Isaiah we see Jesus, the child born the son given. Two of His titles are The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Calling Jesus by these titles would be blasphemy if it wasn’t so. Yet these are the titles given to our Lord in the Old Testament.

Jhn 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In John 1 we have the Word, the Word is Jesus. Again Jesus is referred to as God. In Genesis, it says God created everything, here we see Jesus as the creator and without him nothing was made.

Jhn 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

In this passage Thomas declares Christ as his Lord and his God. Christ would have chastised him if it wasn’t so; instead Jesus blesses those who believe on faith alone! We must remember that Jesus was also a Rabbi; it was the duty of a Rabbi to chastise a blasphemer.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins, yet here we see God purchasing his church with his own Blood.

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The angels are commanded to worship Jesus, yet in the second verse we are told that only God is to be worshipped.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Phl 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Both of the above passages we have Jesus as an equal to God. In the second verse Jesus is in the form of God, being equal with God. Humbling himself to become man.

Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Here we have Christ as part of the Godhead.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

 

[Viper]

In both of these passages, there is no question, we are talking about God!

Rev 21:3-6 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Again, we have God saying he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.B]****Psa 45:6-7 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.****[/B]

This passage, we have God himself claiming Jesus as God!

Isa 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Here God is identifying himself as God and Saviour! Do I need to find all the passages that refer to Jesus as our Saviour?

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When man was made, we were made in the image of God. We ourselves are three in one. We are flesh, spirit and soul.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Praise be to God our Father and to Jesus our Savior and to the Holy Spirit our Counselor!

 

[dthmstr254]

I don't see how this helps your case. My argument still stands that Jesus was actually saying "I am" and not "I am YHWH. It is way too vague to be able to grasp your meaning.

once again i will reiterate that YHWH was reserved only for God, they had another term for "I am" which is אֲנִי צורת הבינוני של הפועל בגוף ראשון יחיד
it might show wierd on your computer cause it is a very extremely long word in the Hebrew text thank you

 

[Peralin]

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am(YHWH).

Ok, translated then: Jesus said to them, "I say to you, before Abraham was, God."

Since you say that YHWH means "God" and was not used to say "I AM", this is the correct translation, is it not? This passage would not make any sense this way, as Jesus, being the son of God, would not use a subject without a verb to follw. You see, your translation does not make sense.

 

[dthmstr254]

YHWH is the same name God used for Moses to call Him by, "I Am that I Am" it can be translated as: Lord, God, or I Am."

 

[Peralin]

YHWH is the same name God used for Moses to call Him by, "I Am that I Am" it can be translated as: Lord, God, or I Am."

What are you talking about? You just completely contradicted yourself! Make up your mind! You said this earlier:

once again i will reiterate that YHWH was reserved for God, they had another term for "I am"

So then "YHWH" could not mean "I AM", but in the first quote you said that it could! So which is it?

 

[Old and wise]

Thank you, old and wise, I completely agree. Of course, there is only one sentence to agree with. Please do expand.

I would love to, but the people that believe in this fairy tale would never agree. I fail to understand how anyone can believe something just because it is written in a book. There is no proof, no convincing evidence and nobody has ever comeback from beyond to tell otherwise. Kind of like the suicide bombers believing that they will be blessed with 30 virgins in the afterlife for killing themselves. It is all fiction.

 

[dthmstr254]

What are you talking about? You just completely contradicted yourself! Make up your mind! You said this earlier:



So then "YHWH" could not mean "I AM", but in the first quote you said that it could! So which is it?

no i told you that there was a completely different term for the everyday use of "i am" which was a long list of symbols that i do not care to copy onto this thread again, if you want them, then you should read back in the thread. the Hebrew term when referring to God is, in English characters, YHWH, which again means Lord, God, or I Am with a capital "A". this explains how i have not contradicted myself.

 

[Peralin]

Ok, translated then: Jesus said to them, "I say to you, before Abraham was, God."

Since you say that YHWH means "God" and was not used to say "I AM", this is the correct translation, is it not? This passage would not make any sense this way, as Jesus, being the son of God, would not use a subject without a verb to follw. You see, your translation does not make sense.

I stick with my argument. This does not prove that Jesus=God.

 

[Peralin]

In Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

In Isaiah we see Jesus, the child born the son given. Two of His titles are The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Calling Jesus by these titles would be blasphemy if it wasn’t so. Yet these are the titles given to our Lord in the Old Testament.

This is a passage from Isaiah, from the Old Testament, before Jesus was even born. Isaiah had no idea whether Jesus=God because he was before Jesus's time. I could go on and on about the prophets, but it is unnecessary. I asked for Gospel passages, not prophecies.

Jhn 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In John 1 we have the Word, the Word is Jesus. Again Jesus is referred to as God. In Genesis, it says God created everything, here we see Jesus as the creator and without him nothing was made.

I already explained this! Look at earlier posts please.

Jhn 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

In this passage Thomas declares Christ as his Lord and his God. Christ would have chastised him if it wasn’t so; instead Jesus blesses those who believe on faith alone! We must remember that Jesus was also a Rabbi; it was the duty of a Rabbi to chastise a blasphemer.

Yes, as I said before, one of two passages that support your case.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins, yet here we see God purchasing his church with his own Blood.

God's own blood was used. Jesus is of God's blood, being his son. God sent his own blood (his son) to die on the cross. It does not mean that Jesus is God.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The angels are commanded to worship Jesus, yet in the second verse we are told that only God is to be worshipped.

I already explained this one, too.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Phl 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Both of the above passages we have Jesus as an equal to God. In the second verse Jesus is in the form of God, being equal with God. Humbling himself to become man.

God was his father. So what? So they are equals, so what? That doesn't mean that Jesus is God. God treats us as equals too. But we are not the same as God, are we?

Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Here we have Christ as part of the Godhead.

I don't see your point. Jesus was the son of God, not God himself.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

So Jesus was there with God. Doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

This is another quote from Isaiah. He was not there when Jesus lived, so please don't include prophecies as evidence that Jesus was God.


Do I really need to go through all the rest? Can you not tell how I will respond to each of them? If you really think you have a good one, please repeat it, and I will gladly explain. But I don't want to keep repeating myself.

However, if you insist, I will go on.

 

[dthmstr254]

I stick with my argument. This does not prove that Jesus=God.

then you are ignorant of the FACTS of Hebrew language and started this debate without a firm enough knowledge of the subject to argue it. that should be the end of the debate.

 

[Peralin]

then you are ignorant of the FACTS of Hebrew language and started this debate without a firm enough knowledge of the subject to argue it. that should be the end of the debate.

I have not ignored the facts. You said that "YHWH" was only use for God, right? Just look at this again:


Ok, translated then: Jesus said to them, "I say to you, before Abraham was, God."

Since you say that YHWH means "God" and was not used to say "I AM", this is the correct translation, is it not? This passage would not make any sense this way, as Jesus, being the son of God, would not use a subject without a verb to follw. You see, your translation does not make sense.

What fact am I ignoring, now?

 

[dthmstr254]

YHWH is the same name God used for Moses to call Him by, "I Am that I Am" it can be translated as: Lord, God, or I Am."

once again i will reiterate that YHWH was reserved only for God, they had another term for "I am" which is אֲנִי צורת הבינוני של הפועל בגוף ראשון יחיד
it might show wierd on your computer cause it is a very extremely long word in the Hebrew text thank you

read the facts here, these are what you are ignoring. you have a very small amount of knowledge when it comes to debating now dont you.

 

[Peralin]

read the facts here, these are what you are ignoring. you have a very small amount of knowledge when it comes to debating now dont you.

So you've resorted to insults, huh? How professional.

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am(YHWH).

Ok, now this is the quote that we are arguing about. I am saying that, since "YHWH"

can be translated as: Lord, God, or I Am

, I choose to translate it as "I am".

Used this way, Jesus said this: Before Abraham was, I am.

Fine, that doesn't mean that he is God!

once again i will reiterate that YHWH was reserved only for God, they had another term for "I am" which is אֲנִי צורת הבינוני של הפועל בגוף ראשון יחיד
it might show wierd on your computer cause it is a very extremely long word in the Hebrew text thank you

Fine. Even though you are contradicting yourself, that is irrelevant. I wil gladly throw out the idea of YHWH being translated as "I AM".

So let's try "lord". Jesus would be saying this: Before Abraham was, lord.

Does that say that he is God? No.

So let's try "god". Jesus would be saying this: Before Abraham was, God.

Does that make any sense whatsoever? No, it really doesn't.

So there, I've just ruled out all three possibilities that you brought up. So exactly what fact am I ignoring?

 

[dthmstr254]

no if it were translated as I am, it would be "אֲנִי צורת הבינוני של הפועל בגוף ראשון יחיד" and not "יהוה" (I Am)

 

[Peralin]

no if it were translated as I am, it would be "אֲנִי צורת הבינוני של הפועל בגוף ראשון יחיד" and not "יהוה" (I Am)

So what? Do you simply like to teach people Hebrew or do you actually have a reason for this? I don't see what this has to do with Jesus=God.

 

[dthmstr254]

the term jesus used was YHWH, and not the big long one. this term was fhorthand for "I Am That I Am" or God's name. it was considered blasphemy to even speak that name in reference to oneself, which is why the philistines took up stones to stone him with. but the Bible says He disappeared to their eyes and walked "through the midst of them.

 

[AlbqOwl]

the term jesus used was YHWH, and not the big long one. this term was fhorthand for "I Am That I Am" or God's name. it was considered blasphemy to even speak that name in reference to oneself, which is why the philistines took up stones to stone him with. but the Bible says He disappeared to their eyes and walked "through the midst of them.

All we can prove with Scriptures (or any source actually) is the belief or opinion of the writer at that time. What the Christian world refers to as the Old Testament and also the New Testament is rich with history, metaphor, symbolism, poetry, allegory, parable, apocalyptic code, imagery, and theology, but all it proves is the perception, understanding, and sense of the person and culture of that time.

Without experience, all we know of anything is theory. Until somebody actually walked on the moon, its texture, substance, etc. was all speculative. Until we go back, much of what we know of the moon is still speculative though less so because we now have some experience. Evenso, we have to have confidence in the ones reporting their experience in order to adopt their belief as our own. There are actually quite a few people alive now who believe the moonwalk was an elaboate hoax.

Regarding our understanding of God, who Jesus was, or any of the mysteries surrounding both, the Apostle Paul poignantly explained through a metaphor of 'looking through a dark glass' that gives you some images but obscures the big picture. And we have the reported prophecies of the Old Testament and the reported testimonies of Jesus (and others) of the New Testament of what a part of that big picture looks like. And as Jesus and the Apostle Paul explained, it is by the power of the Holy Spirit - the third person of the Godhead - that causes us to believe it.

It is my belief, based on experience, that those who yield themselves to be instructed, touched, guided, changed by God will come to believe, perhaps not exactly as I believe, but they will receive their own truth. Such yielding has to be with no strings attached, however. Too many try to attach their own chosen dogma, rules, timelines, specific criteria to the request and thus attempt to tie God's hands from the beginning. It has been my experience, that tactic doesn't work well. But for those who don't put God in a box, who can let God be God, almost all come to understand and accept the doctrine of the Trinity.

My best feeble, and most inadequate, explanation of this is that God is Spirit after all, and it is only spiritually that He can be known or understood at all.

 

[Peralin]

the term jesus used was YHWH, and not the big long one. this term was fhorthand for "I Am That I Am" or God's name. it was considered blasphemy to even speak that name in reference to oneself, which is why the philistines took up stones to stone him with. but the Bible says He disappeared to their eyes and walked "through the midst of them.

Fine. Then Jesus said: Before Abraham was, God.

That still doesn't make any sense.