Transwomen are not women and why radfems object to the idea

[maquiscat]

The parenthesis after "sex" means that sex, by default, includes gender identity. This is where the issue lies and why there was much debate and concern. It isn't necessarily the issue of adding gender identity as a protected category. The concern is the push to redefine "sex" to include "gender identity". They are separate.

This is a bill that is dealing with the legal definition in reference to discrimination. The bill is NOT attempting to make the word sex include gender identity for every possible context in the US. You are basically strawmaning the bill.

 

[maquiscat]

I have a nephew who is intersexxed (XXY) and a friend who is a true hermaphrodite, so they certainly do exist.

Differences of sex development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Differences of sex development (DSD) is a group of conditions in which there is a discrepancy between the external (outside) genitals (penis, scrotum, vulva, labia) and the internal (inside) genitals (testes,

medlineplus.gov

Intersex people have been demonstrated empirically to exist What is so hard about this?
If they physically transition and identify as a woman they are by all means a woman theres no air quotes about it. This isnt hard. I cant be the only one who can back up their assertions with citations...

its real ****ing annoying when people can only cite the dictionary for their arguments.

Not what I meant. I was not trying to deny that intersexed people exist or that they are never identified. I am pointing out that in more cases than not, the testing that would be needed to identify them is not done. In many cases an intersexed person lives their lives thinking that they are cis gendered, and possess a "normal" chromosome pair, that aligns with their gender and physical body. Not all intersexed people have medical problems or they are not diagnosed as intersexed related. Along with that a person claiming transgender is rarely tested genetically, so there is no real tracking of how many transgendered people are intersexed, and how many are just mismatched between sex and gender. For that matter, I keep pointing out that being a chimera is a possibility for being transgendered, but people are tested for that even less, especially since doing so would require taking samples from multiple points of the body.

As for the quote, I used them to isolate the words themselves, not as some ironic statement or dismissive use. For gods' sake I used to date a transwoman for close to a year. Why would I want to berate them?

 

[maquiscat]

She is not a TERF but it is a bit confused. If she is MtF then why would she identify as male?

I can't access the article, but I am guessing that she is making the same point I am. And a lot of the issue is the evolving language. Regardless of label used, what sex (with "sex" being a label that is being used in many ways now) you are born as is the sex you will be your entire life, cis or trans. You body may be physically altered, but it is still the sex it was born. Whether or not your gender (another label) has a label that used to be synonymous for the body's sex, is a separate matter. And in all honesty, they do need separate labels. So "male" and "female" for sex, with "man" and "woman" (or "boy" and "girl") for gender. Thus allowing for a male woman or a MtF transgender person.

In reality, the sex really doesn't matter in every day life, no matter how much anti-trans people might like to claim it does, so we tend to be loose with our language. It's not like we actually go around looking at people's genitals, chromosomes, or genes. It does matter medically. A transwoman has different medical concerns and issues than a cis woman has on the whole. And while there will be some differences, a transwoman will have more in common medically to a cis man.

There are those within the transgender community who do hold that male is not the same as man. Others claim that they are the same but a transgender person changes both. Any idea that the transgender community is of one mind on this is a myth. Neither position negates the need for them to have equal rights and to not be harassed for being who they are.

 

[bomberfox]

Not what I meant. I was not trying to deny that intersexed people exist or that they are never identified. I am pointing out that in more cases than not, the testing that would be needed to identify them is not done. In many cases an intersexed person lives their lives thinking that they are cis gendered, and possess a "normal" chromosome pair, that aligns with their gender and physical body. Not all intersexed people have medical problems or they are not diagnosed as intersexed related. Along with that a person claiming transgender is rarely tested genetically, so there is no real tracking of how many transgendered people are intersexed, and how many are just mismatched between sex and gender. For that matter, I keep pointing out that being a chimera is a possibility for being transgendered, but people are tested for that even less, especially since doing so would require taking samples from multiple points of the body.

As for the quote, I used them to isolate the words themselves, not as some ironic statement or dismissive use. For gods' sake I used to date a transwoman for close to a year. Why would I want to berate them?

My mistake.

 

[Aristaeus]

I can't access the article, but I am guessing that she is making the same point I am. And a lot of the issue is the evolving language. Regardless of label used, what sex (with "sex" being a label that is being used in many ways now) you are born as is the sex you will be your entire life, cis or trans. You body may be physically altered, but it is still the sex it was born.

Well we agree on one thing at least!
However be careful where you say this as I've seen women on facebook and twitter subjected to misogynistic abuse and been told to die for saying what you've just said. You're a man so you should avoid the worst of it.

In reality, the sex really doesn't matter in every day life, no matter how much anti-trans people might like to claim it does, so we tend to be loose with our language.

But sex actually does matter in everyday life for women. Women's historic oppression has always been sex based. From physical strength, to being kept barefoot and pregnant, to FGM.
80% of women have experienced sexual harassment and 20% have experienced sexual assault, which is why many women have concerns about sharing women's spaces with males and penises, aside from the more mundane aspect of being able to change in comfort and dignity, especially with regard to orthodox jewish and muslim women.

Women have usually tolerated 'old-skool' transgender/transsexuals in their toilets and changing rooms as they had generally undergone sex-realignment surgery, but now there are more transwomen and more keeping their penis, more and more women are saying 'hold on a moment'.

 

[Lisa]

Well we agree on one thing at least!
However be careful where you say this as I've seen women on facebook and twitter subjected to misogynistic abuse and been told to die for saying what you've just said. You're a man so you should avoid the worst of it.


But sex actually does matter in everyday life for women. Women's historic oppression has always been sex based. From physical strength, to being kept barefoot and pregnant, to FGM.
80% of women have experienced sexual harassment and 20% have experienced sexual assault, which is why many women have concerns about sharing women's spaces with males and penises, aside from the more mundane aspect of being able to change in comfort and dignity, especially with regard to orthodox jewish and muslim women.

Women have usually tolerated 'old-skool' transgender/transsexuals in their toilets and changing rooms as they had generally undergone sex-realignment surgery, but now there are more transwomen and more keeping their penis, more and more women are saying 'hold on a moment'.

Women in the bathroom don't walk around nude so nobody knows if they have had surgery or not. The rest of your reply is emotional bunk.

 

[Aristaeus]

Read the tweets and read the replies, because this is where this crap leads to.

 

[Lisa]

Read the tweets and read the replies, because this is where this crap leads to.

Misscarriage and breastfeeding is the result of trans people existing and having equal rights? You're absurd.

 

[Aristaeus]

Misscarriage and breastfeeding is the result of trans people existing and having equal rights? You're absurd.

What? Don't be silly, I never said that and neither did the tweet. Did you even read the tweet and responses?

The point I was making is that when you decide males can be woman and females can be men, you end up, as in this case, with women being called menstruators - reducing them to bodily functions. It's degrading and dehumanising. Not that you care.

 

[American]

The science simply doesnt back up your preschool understanding of gender and sex

What is the science?

 

[Fishking]

They are trans exclusionary because their targets are trans people and tend to side with reactionaries because of that issue. I do lol at all these claims of TERF oppression, when their targets suffer immensely more harm.
BTW, dictionaries give usages not divined meanings from the ether. A woman is a gender which is different from sex.
Considering these TERFs can easily get away with beating a trans person to death because of legal structures and the fears these tyrants spread even negatively affect cis women because the cops dont think they look feminine enough, its not much different than white people being afraid of black people.

its rather funny a movement that summarily rejected biological essentialism/ reductionism has so many willing to bring it back. Feh reactionaries have stolen the radical image.

1. A woman is a woman because of their sex.
2. The entire concept of transgender contradicts itself and actually doesn't even mean what the term is.
3. Provide one example of a "TERF" beating a transgender person to death or admit you threw out random idiocy in an attempt to prop up your weak point.

 

[Mr Person]

The science simply doesnt back up your preschool understanding of gender and sex

What is the science?

Sealioning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bomberfox]

Read the tweets and read the replies, because this is where this crap leads to.

What? Don't be silly, I never said that and neither did the tweet. Did you even read the tweet and responses?

The point I was making is that when you decide males can be woman and females can be men, you end up, as in this case, with women being called menstruators - reducing them to bodily functions. It's degrading and dehumanising. Not that you care.

Nobody is calling women menstruators but of course the only thing a TERF could have are twatter scares. Actually its your gatekeeping that is reducing women to their biological functions

 

[bomberfox]

Well we agree on one thing at least!
However be careful where you say this as I've seen women on facebook and twitter subjected to misogynistic abuse and been told to die for saying what you've just said. You're a man so you should avoid the worst of it.


But sex actually does matter in everyday life for women. Women's historic oppression has always been sex based. From physical strength, to being kept barefoot and pregnant, to FGM.
80% of women have experienced sexual harassment and 20% have experienced sexual assault, which is why many women have concerns about sharing women's spaces with males and penises, aside from the more mundane aspect of being able to change in comfort and dignity, especially with regard to orthodox jewish and muslim women.

Women have usually tolerated 'old-skool' transgender/transsexuals in their toilets and changing rooms as they had generally undergone sex-realignment surgery, but now there are more transwomen and more keeping their penis, more and more women are saying 'hold on a moment'.

Need some stats first. Males and penises.... i thought we werent supposed to reduce people to their gonads. Women in abuse shelters are not usually walking around with their boobs hanging out all the time.

 

[bomberfox]

What is the science?

Every individual’s body is different. This means there is never one way in which a person may experience and respond to the changes or side effects of hormones. Some commonly reported physical changes experienced by transitioning women include: development of breasts (typically small in size), wider hips and thighs, smoother less defined leg and arm muscles, increased feminine appearance in facial structures, a decrease in body hair growth, and more.
Hormones change a hell of a lot in a person.https://nwhn.org/transitioning-transgender-woman-risks-hormone-replacement-therapy-body/

Kinda puts a nail in the coffin of TERF dogma.

 

[Aristaeus]

Nobody is calling women menstruators but of course the only thing a TERF could have are twatter scares. Actually its your gatekeeping that is reducing women to their biological functions

The organisation I linked is. There are others.

 

[bomberfox]

The organisation I linked is. There are others.

Organizations that have been hashtagged and no direct references or quotations.

 

[Lisa]

What? Don't be silly, I never said that and neither did the tweet. Did you even read the tweet and responses?

The point I was making is that when you decide males can be women and females can be men, you end up, as in this case, with women being called menstruators - reducing them to bodily functions. It's degrading and dehumanizing. Not that you care.

You have no valid argument, but your hysterics have blinded you to the facts. Trans women are not a threat to CIS hetero women anymore than lesbians are but you cannot get the idea that a woman has a penis doesn't make her a man. Trans women have been using the female bathroom for decades but you only started to express outrage when the GOP used this topic to sow division and discrimination among the knuckle-dragging MAGAites after the Obergefell decision when they needed a new minority to attack.

Are females who don't mensurate because of a lack of a uterus, medication, or menopause less of a female to biological extremists such as you? Is it your simplistic arguments that reduce women to biological processes that are insulting to us?

 

[Aristaeus]

You have no valid argument, but your hysterics have blinded you to the facts. Trans women are not a threat to CIS hetero women anymore than lesbians are but you cannot get the idea that a woman has a penis doesn't make her a man. Trans women have been using the female bathroom for decades but you only started to express outrage when the GOP used this topic to sow division and discrimination among the knuckle-dragging MAGAites after the Obergefell decision when they needed a new minority to attack.

Are females who don't mensurate because of a lack of a uterus, medication, or menopause less of a female to biological extremists such as you? Is it your simplistic arguments that reduce women to biological processes that are insulting to us?

I'm a European socialist. I don't give a damn what Trump or his deplorables think.

The penis is the male sexual organ. By definition, females don't have penises.

And you're in no place to accuse others of being insulting when you've invalidated any transperson who's identity didn't match what you thought it should be.

 

[Lisa]

I'm a European socialist. I don't give a damn what Trump or his deplorables think.

The penis is the male sexual organ. By definition, females don't have penises.

And you're in no place to accuse others of being insulting when you've invalidated any transperson who's identity didn't match what you thought it should be.

A person's gender is not df determine by their genitalia or their DNA. This is a 30-year-old psychological fact because if it did then trans people would not exist.

You continue to ignore the fact of psychological gender identity because it doesn't support your simplistic ideas that biology conclusively determines gender.

Gender Identity Is in the Brain. What Does This Tell Us?

What we know about how the brain determines gender identity.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Aristaeus]

Organizations that have been hashtagged and no direct references or quotations.

I posted a direct link to their actual twitter account where they repeatedly call women menstruators.

 

[Aristaeus]

A person's gender is not df determine by their genitalia or their DNA. This is a 30-year-old psychological fact because if it did then trans people would not exist.

You continue to ignore the fact of psychological gender identity because it doesn't support your simplistic ideas that biology conclusively determines gender.

Gender Identity Is in the Brain. What Does This Tell Us?

What we know about how the brain determines gender identity.

www.psychologytoday.com

Biology determines sex (which you seem to deny).

 

[Irredentist]

Biology determines sex (which you seem to deny).

I've always thought that being trans is mostly about changing the social expression of your gender identity. As in, how people perceive and treat you based on your appearance. Your biological sex is not particularly important for that, because you can always change your appearance to look like a different gender.

 

[Lisa]

Biology determines sex (which you seem to deny).

People are more than vaginas and penises, but you seem to not understand this because now you have gone for gar that only women who menstruate are truly female. It is our brain gender that makes us who we are and that is not absolutely determined by DNA or sex chromosomes. Once again your idea eliminates the fact that transgender people exist because their brain gender is incongruent to their biological gender. The gender of a person's brain cannot be changed or ignored, so the body is modified as much as medically possible to align with their psychological gender, which you continue to deny exists.

Trans women ho love to have functional female sex organs but as of now that isn't possible, but that doesn't make them less of a person or a predator to CIS females. It is far more likely that trans females will be the victim of crime in the bathroom instead of being the aggressor as you want to paint them.

Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.


"Twenty-one variants in 19 genes have been found in estrogen signaling pathways of the brain critical to establishing whether the brain is masculine or feminine," says Dr. J. Graham Theisen, obstetrician/gynecologist and National Institutes of Health Women's Reproductive Health Research Scholar at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University.
Basically -- and perhaps counterintuitively -- these genes are primarily involved in estrogen's critical sprinkling of the brain right before or after birth, which is essential to masculinization of the brain.
Variants investigators identified may mean that in natal males (people whose birth sex is male) this critical estrogen exposure doesn't happen or the pathway is altered so the brain does not get masculinized. In natal females, it may mean that estrogen exposure happens when it normally wouldn't, leading to masculinization.
Both could result in an incongruence between a person's internal gender and their external sex. The negative emotional experience associated with this incongruence is called gender dysphoria.

Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender

Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[maquiscat]

I've always thought that being trans is mostly about changing the social expression of your gender identity. As in, how people perceive and treat you based on your appearance. Your biological sex is not particularly important for that, because you can always change your appearance to look like a different gender.

Being transgender means that your sex (the physical body you are born with) and your gender (your inner self) do not match in the manner that is the statistical norm. More specifically, they are opposite, as genderflex is separate from transgender, although related. Being transgender does not automatically mean you will develop Gender Dysphoria. For those that do, it does not mean that you need to go the full surgical path to alleviate the dysphoria. But in some the incogruency between the self and the body is more dysphroic than that of the clothing they wear.

The problem is that there is no one way of being transgender or any other non-binary, nor is there any one hard set criteria as to expression of gender, trans or cis, but the anti-trans crowd (and sadly so does a small portion of the transgender community) try to frame the issue that way, and points to the variations as to why it isn't real.