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It's such a pity Jallman...
At last, I thought, you and I were going to finally discuss something where you don't talk thru your ass. Your post come off as insensitive, pompous, and childish.
It seems every time I encounter you, you just want to revert back to this childishness. Again, I am robbed of a meaningful conversation with you. If you wish to discuss this like adults, cease the childishness.
I don't believe Jallman thinks the disorder itself is "pretend."
He asserted a "surgical solution" which involves manipulation/mutilation of ones genitals offers up a "pretend" delusion. The man who genuinely thinks he is in the wrong body cannot become a woman no matter how many surgical alterations he undergoes, no matter how many drugs he takes. No matter what he does he will still be a man, albeit an altered man. But a man nonetheless, not a woman. That's where the fantasy/pretend/delusion part comes into play. With surgery and hormones the aim is to get as close to the goal as possible so you can pretend you are in the "right" body. So you can pretend you are the right gender.
But you're not. You can't be. A man can't become a woman and vice versa. I'm sure the disorder is real. I'm sure there are folks who really feel like they are in the wrong body. But there's no surgical solution to that which doesn't involve fantasy and pretending, as Jallman said.
Does an amputee pretend that he has a new arm when given a prosthetic? Does a man who had heart replacement surgery pretend that he has a new heart? Does an old woman who is hooked up to a respirator machine pretend that the machine is her new lungs?
These are solutions. Not "pretend" or "fantasy" things.
Particularly from someone whose lifestyle choice would be characterized with similar terms not so long ago. A man who recently married his boyfriend and yet votes and promotes the party that would take that away from him, that thinks he is a disgrace to family values.
As an addendum to my last post:
Again, Jallman could have chosen much better words in his post. "Obsession" "mutilate" and "pretend" were not accurate. These are clearly offensive, and uncalled for.
What the hell even is transgender?
Someone who suffers from the socially enabled delusion that it's okay to mutilate your genitalia to fit a pretend perception of yourself.
What the hell even is transgender?
So are you saying you know what's best for their genitalia and should be able to dictate the terms of use? Cause why isn't it ok for someone the "mutilate" their own genitalia if that's what they want to do?
So are you saying you know what's best for their genitalia and should be able to dictate the terms of use? Cause why isn't it ok for someone the "mutilate" their own genitalia if that's what they want to do?
I don't determine this. Medical ethics determines this. It is a pointless procedure meant to repair nothing. That goes against the grain of medical ethics just like cosmetic surgery, in my opinion.
When the mind suffers a delusion, it makes no sense to cut off the penis to fix it. :roll:
Not to you or I, but who made you king of genitalia? If someone wants to lop it off, why can't they? It's theirs is it not? Medical ethics prevents one from allowing people to die who could have been saved; not performing surgery which could improve the emotional state and well being of a patient.
Just cause you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it any of your business.
Not to you or I, but who made you king of genitalia? If someone wants to lop it off, why can't they? It's theirs is it not? Medical ethics prevents one from allowing people to die who could have been saved; not performing surgery which could improve the emotional state and well being of a patient.
Just cause you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it any of your business.
Cause it's self destructive, irrational, and pointless.
Should drs. really be paid to deal with mental illness in a way that's self destructive?
Should the anorexic be allowed to starve under the guidance of a dr?
Should drs. be cutting into the breasts of healthy women and stuffing them with balloons?
Should drs. get paid for **** like what some witch dr. did to Michael Jacksons face?
Drs. should be held accountable for what they do.
Hey Ikari...did you forget something? This is a debate sight...not congress. No one is legislating what people can do with their genitalia here...just offering our thoughts on the situation. Can you do that too? Because honestly, this whole line of attack that offering an opinion on the topic is somehow making me a genitalia nazi is getting old already.
So you didn't post this post?You know nothing of what you spew. Again, you prove how absolutely dense you are.
Josh and I are already married. It happened on September 10th at 2:30PM at the Redwood City courthouse.
He is still planning a large gathering on October 9th of 2009 for family, friends, and associates at the Meritage in Napa Valley where we will have a ceremony for them and a huge dinner/party before we go on our "honeymoon" in the Mediterrenean two days later.
I have not renounced the Church.
That's all very nice and libertarian.So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal? Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless. Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it. Who the hell are you to say no? Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.
So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal?
Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless.
Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it.
Who the hell are you to say no?
Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.
That's my point. There's no proof that it does improve the emotional state or well being of the patient.
In fact studies show plastic surgery doesn't do that, not by far. People who undergo drastic plastic surgery are statistically more unhappy than the general population and the unhappiness statistically doesn't change post-op because when the body was pathologically healthy the unhappiness was mental thus not amendable to correction with a knife.
If these drs are not statistically improving the well being of their patients then what are they doing?
In my mind they're exploiting mental illness for profit. Selling illusions for dollars without ever having the intention of resolving the real problem - the mental dysphoria. Preying on the weak. These drs. in all likelihood are causing more harm than good.
First, I'm not assuming the person is confused. Confused wouldn't be my word choice. As with any dysphoria I believe they're ultimately unhappy. They are mentally not content with their body. When the body is pathologically healthy the malcontent, the way I see it, has to be a product of the mind.
A dr. -no matter how good or expensive- cannot turn a man into a woman. This is the reality. To charge them, exploit them, and surgically alter them is a shoddy attempt at healing the dysphoria. When all is said and done they will still be a man, a surgically altered man, but still a man. All this at the expense of a healthy body. The once healthy body, unhealthy mind now becomes an unhealthy mind and unhealthy body.
If you want to argue that it's healthy for a man to remove his healthy penis I'll just agree to disagree. The removal of a penis is not a benign alteration. It's drastic. It's also pointless in that at first the dr. is dealing with a man who wants to be a woman. Post surgery the dr. is dealing with a penis-less man who wants to be a woman. No healing of any kind occurred and the procedure is irreversible! At this point the dr. should be ashamed of themselves, my opinion of course.
Meanwhile gender roles change constantly. There's no reason a healthy man can't adopt the appearance of a "woman" without self destruction. There's no reason for the knife and the destruction of healthy tissue unless the patient is lead to believe that the illusion will be so real, so good, that others will be fooled. That for all intent and purposes he as a man has become a woman.
However society has shown time and time again that they don't buy into such illusions. No amount of surgery makes a man a woman and ultimately the illusion fails its intended purpose.
I think it's far better to encourage the person to take care of their healthy body, be glad that their body is healthy, and go ahead and encourage them to defy gender roles every which way till Sunday without bringing physical harm to the healthy body they do have. Every effort should be made to help them be comfortable within their own skin.
Let's say you're right. Let's say it's possible an individual genuinely is "trapped" in the wrong body, the wrong gender. I'll go ahead and accept that premise.
It doesn't change the argument that they shouldn't do bodily harm to themselves. It doesn't change the FACT that a dr. can't make a man a woman.
People self harm for a wide variety of reasons. No matter what the underlying cause we normally steer away from allowing them to continue to do that. Gender disorders shouldn't be treated any differently. If you could make a man a woman then that would be different. That would be a "cure." But you can't. So you're just allowing them to self mutilate. We wouldn't allow a "cutter" to keep cutting as long as they did it in a way that never resulted in death. We certainly wouldn't do it and call it a cure. We wouldn't allow drs. to set up shop where they make appts to routinely safely cut cutters in a sterile clean environment and call that a cure for whatever dysphoria they had. The very idea is insane.
An unhealthy mind needs to be surrounded by healthy minds that aim to heal. It's a disservice to offer them up insane "cures" that are self destructive, illusionary, and without purpose.
So you didn't post this post?
http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-pa...n-disgrace-mother-again-4.html#post1057766085
Or have I misunderstood it?
It's loosely defined as any form of gender bending. It could be a woman trying to break into a field of work considered mens work. If you ask my grandpop he thinks long haired guys who wear earrings are transgendered.
For the purpose of this thread though I think we're talking about folks who are not happy with their male/female biological reality and thus aim to change it or create the illusion that it has changed.
Moderator's Warning: |
Cool the thread down. |
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