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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...

  • Total voters
    58
Felicity said:
If it is an organic problem, surgical work on the sex organs is not addressing the damaged part of the body, but rather cuts healthy flesh.
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There is no damaged part of the brain, though. Just as people with depression do not have damaged brains. The way you are wording it is simplifying the disorder and out of context.

It is a disorder, an Identity disorder. The brain is not damaged, it's the mind. Fixing the brain, is not the same as fixing the mind.

For instance: Phantom Limb.

People who have amputated limbs feel their removed limbs. They some times feel it via pain, and sometimes itchiness. But the general feeling is that their limb(s) is still there.

One fairly successful way to eliminate this "itchy" feeling is to gain a prosthetic limb. The itchiness goes away, along with the residual pain. This was how the mind was "fixed." No operation needed on the brain.

Now, do you understand the disconnect in your conclusion?
 

There is no consensus regarding whether or not gender dysphoria has an organic component to it. Most drs. recognize it as a mental disorder. It is classified as a mental disorder today. There are theories which allude to hormonal imbalances in the womb or chromosome abnormalities, etc but those are theories. As it stands today it is classified as a mental disorder.

Furthermore there are few large long term studies out there. Then there's the John Hopkins stuff, which suggests that while most transsexuals don't express regret for their sexual reassignment surgery they are hardly cured. The same psychological conditions exist post op that were present pre op. Since men can't' be made women and vice versa the dysphoria remains. John Hopkins shut down their gender reassignment clinic for fear that they were cooperating with mental illness rather than curing it after following up on post surgical transsexuals.
 

Ok, now imagine wanting something so bad that you were willing to risk all of that and probably more. If someone is suffering so badly that they will risk everything for relief I can not imagine how a caring human being could oppose them. Should they suffer so others can be comfortable and not have to "deal with it"?
 
Phantom Limb phenomenon is a somatic delusion. I agree that GID is delusional--a somatic delusion.


Now, do you understand the disconnect in your conclusion?
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Not really...a strap-on would not solve the delusion of a person suffering GID.

Delusions
 

There are women suffering because their form of body dysphoria tells them they are too fat no matter how skinny they are. Allowing them to starve themselves under dr. directed guidance wouldn't be compassionate. It would instead be detrimental.

Allowing a person to destroy healthy tissue due a mental illness is not compassionate. If the transsexual person has the same psychological problems post op that he or she had pre-op then there's no benefit.

The fact that transsexuals report their surgery was beneficial doesn't mean anything.

Anorexic women are happy to starve themselves to death and may report feelings of happiness while engaging in their unhealthy eating disorder.
 


Ok, well, what would convince you?
 
awwww...man...I just went back and actually read the last few pages of posts...I wish I hadn't. TMI, joey--even if Ten's egging you on. Sheesh.:doh
 
talloulou said:
Allowing a person to destroy healthy tissue due a mental illness is not compassionate.
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It is if thats what they want to do and it doesn't hurt anyone else. And by "not hurt anyone else" I don't mean the way you suffer at home having to endure the agony of hearing about them.
 
Felicity said:
Phantom Limb phenomenon is a somatic delusion. I agree that GID is delusional--a somatic delusion.
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Yes, phantom limb is a delusion. But I was not alluding that GID is a delusion. I was merely explaining that surgery on the brain is not the only way to resolve a psychological disorder.

Brain does not equal mind. Therefore operating on an organ, that is not the brain, could still be achieving the goal of "fixing the mind."

Not really...a strap-on would not solve the delusion of a person suffering GID.
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Actually in some cases it would. Remember when said that surgery wasn't always the solution? Some transsexuals engage in cross-dressing (this would include strap-ons), and some take hormonal therapy without the surgery.

Again, surgery would be an appropriate resolution to the problem, as would the alternatives that do not require surgery. Given that substantial counseling and professional advising were given prior to the treatment.
 
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Lightdemon said:
Why do you say that?
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I don't believe there's a difference between the brain and the mind. They are one in the same. This is why it isn't all that uncommon for someone to recover from an extensive brain injury and have a whole new personality. Without a brain you wouldn't think, couldn't think, the brain is the mind. That's why when you think the thoughts are in your head!

To say the brain is not the mind is as ridiculous as saying mental dysphoria can be fixed by slashing up the genitals.
 

No, this just proves that the brain is PART of the mind.

To say the brain is not the mind is as ridiculous as saying mental dysphoria can be fixed by slashing up the genitals.
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Then you misunderstand. "Brain doesn't equal mind" doesn't mean "brain isn't mind."

The mind consists of the brain and other things as well. Such as the peripheral nervous system, and in some cases hormonal information via the hypothalamus. These are also part of the mind.
 
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talloulou said:
I don't believe there's a difference between the brain and the mind. They are one in the same.
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This totally explains why you don't understand this issue.

You must have a brain to have a mind, but you can't have a mind without a brain, thus they are not one in the same.
 

To substantiate my post, I refer you to specific examples of why the brain does not equal the mind:

Teenagers and hormones. Clearly hormones in adolescence is a huge contributing factor to their behavior as well as how they think. Therefore the hormones are part of the "mind."

To refer back to an earlier example, Phantom Limb: The reason why they still feel their limbs is because of the residual "memory" stored in the peripheral nervous system. More formally known as Muscle Memory.

The reason why the pain and itchiness goes away after a prosthetic is introduced is because of the newly developed muscle memory, therefore (in a sense) the "mind" was recreated.

Brain is not the mind. But the mind includes the brain.
 
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The hypothalamus is part of your brain. There is no evidence that there is a mind that is separate from the brain.

Arguing that the mind is not the brain is akin to arguing about a "soul" it's an interesting discussion but there's nothing scientific to back it up and a preponderance of evidence to counter against.
 

The hypothalamus also engages in communication with other organs that secretes hormones. Where does the mind begin then?

Also, I'll wait until you addressed my follow-up post.
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
This totally explains why you don't understand this issue.

You must have a brain to have a mind, but you can't have a mind without a brain, thus they are not one in the same.
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Which one did you use to write that sentence? I recommend trying out the other one instead as the sentence was laughable nonsense.
 
Lightdemon said:
The hypothalamus also engages in communication with other organs that secretes hormones. Where does the mind begin then?

Also, I'll wait until you addressed my follow-up post.
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Obviously the entire body of our organism is a "system" with messages constantly being sent from the body to the brain. But the brain is the interpretation center, the thinking center. The brain is your mind. This doesn't mean other parts of the body don't affect the brain and vice versa but the argument that the mind and brain are separate things has no scientific backing. Chemical imbalance in the brain will alter how you think, how you feel, etc. Hormones can affect your brain. I fail to see how getting "hormonal" is evidence that the mind and brain are two distinct entities.

The idea of a mind that is separate from the brain is an ideological argument that involves spirits and souls and so forth.

Scientifically they're one in the same.
 
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talloulou said:
Obviously the entire body of our organism is a "system" with messages constantly being sent from the body to the brain. But the brain is the interpretation center, the thinking center.
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The phantom limb example that I provided refuted this. The delusion of the of the non-existent limb, didn't exist in the brain. Instead it existed in the peripheral nervous system, Muscle Memory. If such a phenomenon can occur, then that rules out that the brain is the only organ that does the interpreting.

The brain is your mind. This doesn't mean other parts of the body don't affect the brain and vice versa but the argument that the mind and brain are separate things has no scientific backing.
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The brain uses what we refer to as neural transmitters, which are basically molecules that act as messages. Why are hormones any different? Just because they travel slower and not electrically? The brain a room in which interpretation takes place. There are other "rooms" where interpretation takes place.

Chemical imbalance in the brain will alter how you think, how you feel, etc. Hormones can affect your brain. I fail to see how getting "hormonal" is evidence that the mind and brain are two distinct entities.
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Simply because hormones dictate the way you think. How do you think, if not with your mind?

The idea of a mind that is separate from the brain is an ideological argument that involves spirits and souls and so forth.
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That is what people used to think of Phantom Limb. That their souls remained even though part of their body were gone. But of course, I offered no such interpretation like that. I offered you a scientific explanation, which should be treated as such.
 
Here read about the phantom limb:


Phantom limb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Nothing about that description alludes to a mind that is separate from a brain.
 
WTF? Hormones don't think. They don't interpret. They may affect the brains but they don't become "thinking centers."

We DO NOT have "other rooms" where interpretation/thinking takes place. That all happens in the brain.

Simply because hormones dictate the way you think. How do you think, if not with your mind?
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Hormones do not dictate the way you think. Hormones affect your system which affects the messages sent to your brain via your nervous system.

That is what people used to think of Phantom Limb. That their souls remained even though part of their body were gone. But of course, I offered no such interpretation like that. I offered you a scientific explanation, which should be treated as such.
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There's nothing scientific about suggesting there are "other rooms" that think and interpret other than the brain in the human body.
 
talloulou said:
Which one did you use to write that sentence? I recommend trying out the other one instead as the sentence was laughable nonsense.
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This feels like arguing with someone that thinks the earth is flat.

A brain is a chunk of meat.
A mind is consciousness, the ability to perceive.
 
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