Transgender Victoria Secret Model - Breaking Down Barriers

[Mach]

My only concern is female athletics. Trans men are taking a banned drug in sports, testosterone and trans women already have or had the testosterone levels of men.

That's your only concern? I think that can be fixed with using some metric other than birth gender, right?

 

[nota bene]

When I met my first trans person, I was 19 and never even heard of such a thing. World changes so fast...

For those unfamiliar with the names: Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

Renee Richards - Wikipedia

In the world in which I grew up, some people were gay, and I really didn't think much about it, not any more than I thought about the people from other countries who were guests in my parents' home. Interesting, as were just about everybody else. My godfather was gay, and my baby sister's best friend was too and was so allowed to sleep over when they were teens.

I really didn't have much exposure to prejudice until I went to college, and then I was just shocked. I had no idea there were so many fearful knuckledraggers out there.

 

[Redress]

For those unfamiliar with the names: Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

Renee Richards - Wikipedia

In the world in which I grew up, some people were gay, and I really didn't think much about it, not any more than I thought about the people from other countries who were guests in my parents' home. Interesting, as were just about everybody else. My godfather was gay, and my baby sister's best friend was too and was so allowed to sleep over when they were teens.

I really didn't have much exposure to prejudice until I went to college, and then I was just shocked. I had no idea there were so many fearful knuckledraggers out there.

First I ever heard of either of those two. Learn new stuff every day.

I grew up in a tiny town in the 70s. Casual racism was normal("Heavier than a dead N-word" was something you could hear a school teacher say safely). The only gay person anyone in school had ever heard of was my mom. People felt bad my sister and I had a pervert mom. Time marches on though I guess. It is because of people like my mom, living their life with as much dignity and decency as possible, being good neighbors, good employees, good friends, that we are where we are today, with gays able to marry, and accepted by almost everyone.

 

[Lisa]

Advances in medicine have made physical change more of an option. There are social and legal questions that have yet to be worked out. Not so much for models but in sports (pro and con pro) diversity goals, public facilities, schools able to handle transgenders, etc.

What social and legal questions remain unanswered? What bathroom laws? That nonsense was dreamed up as a way to galvanize idiots. What bathrooms do female to males trans people use if male to female trans use the men's bathroom? Did you ever consider that fact? Most societies make due to unisex bathrooms and never have a problem. If a person wants to molest kids in the US they aren't going to dress in drag to do it. they only have to claim that they are a priest or a youth minister.

I have heard of this example before. Should a male who identifies as women be allowed to compete against women in a sport? I have read articles that say if a male takes the proper drugs that the potential male advantage would not be a factor. Yet, in general, males are just built differently than females with or without the hormones. So I would not be in favor of a male transgender competing against women in sports.

Do you want separate but equal leagues like what was proposed because black people occasionally are stronger and faster than whites? Should we have the tranny leagues that are analogous to black sports?

 

[mike2810]

What social and legal questions remain unanswered? What bathroom laws? That nonsense was dreamed up as a way to galvanize idiots. What bathrooms do female to males trans people use if male to female trans use the men's bathroom? Did you ever consider that fact? Most societies make due to unisex bathrooms and never have a problem. If a person wants to molest kids in the US they aren't going to dress in drag to do it. they only have to claim that they are a priest or a youth minister.

Do you want separate but equal leagues like what was proposed because black people occasionally are stronger and faster than whites? Should we have the tranny leagues that are analogous to black sports?

I did not bring up bathrooms. You did.

I take it then you would prefer no female or male sports. That humans should just compete against each other. imo, there would be a lot of "females" who would not make the team.

The transgender issue imo is not where the same as the "race" issue. imo, transgender male to female should not be allowed to compete as a female nor a female transgender compete with males. If someone is born male, than that who they should compete against in sports.

Like I said, there are still unsettled issues.

 

[hanger4]

That's your only concern? I think that can be fixed with using some metric other than birth gender, right?

If trans men and women only competed in male sports, not a prob.

 

[Fledermaus]

Why can't you accept that this person is biologically male and that if he wants to be called a she and wants to dress as a women and act like a women that no one here cares if he chooses to do so and that we can all be polite and respectful and call him a her or he a she and we can all get along.
You'll find the only push back on the subject to be when someone enters into a field were women and men are held to different standards such as competitive sports that are segregated by gender.

Bullseye...

 

[maquiscat]

The simplest thing DNA can tell you is whether someone is male or female. It doesn't matter what hormones you take or surgeries you subject yourself to you're still male or female.

Which means nothing to one's gender, or inner self. Aside from the fact that genetic variations that can result in triple chromosomes or chimeras affect thousands of people, there is also the fact that other factors such as AIS and other similar conditions result in a lack of activation of certain genes and chromosomes for thousands more.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

 

[TheEconomist]

Do you want separate but equal leagues like what was proposed because black people occasionally are stronger and faster than whites? Should we have the tranny leagues that are analogous to black sports?

The record of what happens when you let trans women compete with women speaks volume to the pointlessness of that comparison.

A disproportionate number of black people occupy the elite of basketball, baseball and some athletic disciplines such as sprinting. Note that this is not true across the board and possibly less true at lower levels of competition such as those involving college-level athletes. All the people involved have comparable biological characters, though some manifestly have an edge in one area or another. However, when you let people with male physiology compete with women, the game is rigged from the start. It's exactly what happened everywhere they let trans women compete with women. They do not just win, they crush records and win by absurd margins, exactly as someone acquainted with biology could have told you ahead of time.

Obviously, it is far worse when the sport in question is a martial arts discipline. Then, it's not just testosterone that is at play: men also have a higher bone density than women and they also tend to have bigger, heavier hands and they tend to have a higher muscular mass, especially in the upperbody. Last time I heard about it, a top woman fighter got her skulled crush and ended up in the hospital in a coma.


By virtue of what do you give yourself permission to assume that people who disagree with you are idiots and that the arguments they hold have to be malign fantasies? Nobody who is halfway serious about those issues would say there is not something tragic and sad about the difficulties trans people experience. They are not all malign and stupid. More to the point, even if they were both malign and stupid, you could show the entire world where they have it wrong by talking with them. It's not because someone doesn't yield to all demands that we bend over backwards to accommodate the desires and feelings of trans people that they are hateful. I suspect that part of the resistance to at least some of those demands has something to do with people growing tired of people like you trying to demonize them into compliance.

 

[Lisa]

First I ever heard of either of those two. Learn new stuff every day.

I grew up in a tiny town in the 70s. Casual racism was normal("Heavier than a dead N-word" was something you could hear a school teacher say safely). The only gay person anyone in school had ever heard of was my mom. People felt bad my sister and I had a pervert mom. Time marches on though I guess. It is because of people like my mom, living their life with as much dignity and decency as possible, being good neighbors, good employees, good friends, that we are where we are today, with gays able to marry, and accepted by almost everyone.

Are you aware that she is transgender and was a Bond Girl? Caroline Cossey.

YouTube

 

[Fledermaus]

Kids can be amazing sometimes. When I was a kid, the fact my sister and I had a gay mom was a big deal. By the time my little half brother went to school 10 years later, kids knew about gays, knew gay people, and really thought of gay people as just people.

Though I will say, I just found out one of the guys I served with in the navy is now a woman. There are pictures from the reunion the squadron alumni group help, bunches of old grizzled guys and one woman with lots of makeup and a nice dress. Apparently no one cared that she used to be male. Maybe there is hope for the world...

Sometimes it is the manly men that go in for gender reassignment.

Bruce Jenner...

There was the News pilot Bob/Zoey Tur.

 

[Redress]

If trans men and women only competed in male sports, not a prob.

Why do people keep bringing up sports in a thread about a model? It is really stupid. There are people at all levels of sports who are tasked with deciding the rules of those sports. The tiny number of trans athletes, who make up a tiny number of total athletes, who make up a tiny number of people overall, is really not an issue. It seems more like an excuse. "Oh noz, trans are bad because sports!"

 

[maquiscat]

Yay! Another woman displaced from a lucrative career/job/medal/scholarship by a man.

Wait, I thought such modeling jobs were demeaning and exploitive of women. So, as you're putting it, it's now a man's turn to be demeaned and exploited.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

 

[maquiscat]

What does science say?

That the sex is male, and the gender is female. Any further questions?

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

 

[Redress]

Are you aware that she is transgender and was a Bond Girl? Caroline Cossey.

YouTube

Nope, but I am not up on pop culture.

 

[Lisa]

I did not bring up bathrooms. You did.

I take it then you would prefer no female or male sports. That humans should just compete against each other. imo, there would be a lot of "females" who would not make the team.

The transgender issue imo is not where the same as the "race" issue. imo, transgender male to female should not be allowed to compete as a female nor a female transgender compete with males. If someone is born male, than that who they should compete against in sports.

Like I said, there are still unsettled issues.

What pubic faclilties did you have in mind, if it isn't bathrooms?

Advances in medicine has made physical change more of an option. There are social and legal questions that have yet to be worked out. Not so much for models but in sports (pro and non pro) diversity goals, public facilities, schools able to handle transgenders, etc.

 

[Redress]

Sometimes it is the manly men that go in for gender reassignment.

Bruce Jenner...

There was the News pilot Bob/Zoey Tur.

Do you have data? Not saying you are wrong, but first I ever heard of that.

 

[Lisa]

Sometimes it is the manly men that go in for gender reassignment.

Bruce Jenner...

There was the News pilot Bob/Zoey Tur.

The ratio of male to female and female to male transgender is about equal. FTM surgey isnt as advanced but theyre are many FTM trans people. FTM trans tend to blend in more and aren't as noticeable.

 

[Redress]

What pubic faclilties did you have in mind, if it isn't bathrooms?

The bathroom thing was the most insane joke ever. We have to protect our wimmin folk by making laws that do nothing new to protect our wimmin folk. I swear that some people just need to make life rough for others to feel better about themselves.

 

[Fledermaus]

Do you have data? Not saying you are wrong, but first I ever heard of that.

Bruce Jenner was once considered the epitome of what a men should be. Charismatic, athletic, well spoken...

A "manly man" in the eyes of many.

Bob Tur was at the forefront of news broadcasting from the air. A pilot who saved at least one life, originated helo coverage for police chases, flew over LA during the riots drawing fire....

A "manly man" again...

 

[Redress]

Bruce Jenner was once considered the epitome of what a men should be. Charismatic, athletic, well spoken...

A "manly man" in the eyes of many.

Bob Tur was at the forefront of news broadcasting from the air. A pilot who saved at least one life, originated helo coverage for police chases, flew over LA during the riots drawing fire....

A "manly man" again...

OK, I misread it. I thought your where saying it was mainly men who got reassignment surgery. My bad, sorry.

 

[maquiscat]

Last time I checked DNA did indeed determine what you are.

It has nothing to do with choice, desire, wants, fears, etc.

And, please, stuff it with the "fear" nonsense.

That is just a fallback people use when they have lost the argument....

Then the logic of that says that DNA also determines one's sexuality and gender identity as well as their physical attributes. The simple fact that we can show that there is a bell curve, or a norm, with exceptions to the "rule" on many aspects to human existence, makes the presence of LBG and trans as normal as left-handedness. Statistically abnormal, but perfectly natural/normal.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

 

[Fledermaus]

The ratio of male to female and female to male transgender is about equal. FTM surgey isnt as advanced but theyre are many FTM trans people. FTM trans tend to blend in more and aren't as noticeable.

FTM may not get the press MTF does. Unless one is a child of a superstar.

I remember the joke comparing the two surgeries... Easier to dig a hole than raise a pole.

 

[mike2810]

What pubic faclilties did you have in mind, if it isn't bathrooms?

Locker rooms. Could also be large bathrooms like at gyms, etc.

 

[maquiscat]

Human sexuality is more complicated than your simplistic binary arguments. You could use the same argument to deny homosexuality.

What gender is a person who has XXY chromones?

I like using the chimera example better. What is the gender of a person who absorbed a fraternal twin of the opposite sex?

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk