Transgender toddler.

[seymourflops]

For any adult. You would agree, right? Or do you want to control what adults do to their own genitals?

No, I'm libertarian, so an adult can do what they want with their own genitals.

I could say more, but I always encourage libertarians to just mind their own business, so I'll take my own advice.

 

[Phys251]

No, I'm libertarian, so an adult can do what they want with their own genitals.

Good. Many transphobes are under the delusion that sex confirmation surgery is bad at any age.

I could say more, but I always encourage libertarians to just mind their own business, so I'll take my own advice.

And this has what to do with this debate?

 

[Lisa]

Those that purposly ignore facts and experts in the field sure have a lot of nothing to say.

I am following the facts of the medical world, unlike you who cherry-picks evidence to support your own position. There is nobody who is saying to deny effective medical care to trans teens until they become adults or to discount the effects of psychological gender identity/ gender dysphoria. When a teen is already developing gender dysphoria that is an absolute conclusive sign that they will not desist or detransition. gender dysphoria caused by gender incongruence is a lifelong mental health problem in itself, even after the problem is corrected as far as medical science will allow. Who told you that if you delay care long enough that trans teens or adults will desist? That is both very wrong and dangerous for their mental and physical health.

You can not accept that a person's genitals or DNA do not conclusively determine their effective and functional gender.

I want to know why you feel this way because this extreme opinion has to have a very extreme reason to go this fact and reject medical reality. Do you have trans feelings and feel that because you think that you s desisted, which didn't happen, you just repressed the, that should be the same treatment for others. We know that most homophobes are closeted gays, so we should assume the same for transphobes.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

@seymourflops I see your reply. I took a break from DP over the weekend, but I wanted to thank you for obviously taking quite a bit of effort into responding. I plan on taking the time write an thoughtful response sometime tomrrow.

 

[Aristaeus]

Back onto the thread topic. Can we all agree (except Lisa of course, who has already stated otherwise) that a one-year-old child does not know they are transgender?

 

[Aristaeus]

No, they do not know the words trans or gender identity. They do however have an innate sense of being a boy or a girl.

What is your problem with allowing this child to grow up and express their inner self as they see fit? What is the possible downside of allowing them to express themselves how they are most comfortable?

You're the one pushing the trans label onto them because a girl wanted a boyish haircut or a boy want to play with 'girl' toys.

 

[buck]

I am following the facts of the medical world, unlike you who cherry-picks evidence to support your own position. There is nobody who is saying to deny effective medical care to trans teens until they become adults or to discount the effects of psychological gender identity/ gender dysphoria. When a teen is already developing gender dysphoria that is an absolute conclusive sign that they will not desist or detransition. gender dysphoria caused by gender incongruence is a lifelong mental health problem in itself, even after the problem is corrected as far as medical science will allow. Who told you that if you delay care long enough that trans teens or adults will desist? That is both very wrong and dangerous for their mental and physical health.

You can not accept that a person's genitals or DNA do not conclusively determine their effective and functional gender.

I want to know why you feel this way because this extreme opinion has to have a very extreme reason to go this fact and reject medical reality. Do you have trans feelings and feel that because you think that you s desisted, which didn't happen, you just repressed the, that should be the same treatment for others. We know that most homophobes are closeted gays, so we should assume the same for transphobes.

So much wrong with your post. But, ill just respond that multiple studies show approximately 80% of kids desist by the time puberty is completed. Putting them on life altering drugs... maybe not a great idea.

If you have a study showing otherwise (not just some activists claim) feel free to post it. I'm always happy to see a study.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

We can achieve all that without putting toddlers on the chopping block.

So first off, I agree that we should move towards some kind of gender abolitionist world. However, I think the trans movement has had a net positive effect. I personally think that getting surgery should probably be held off until 17/18. I've seen some posts citing that 13 year olds have had surgery, but I still don't see how we are putting toddlers on the chopping block.

Remember, ultimately this is about reducing suicidality, especially in teens.

It found that transgender people who had received one or more gender-affirming surgical procedures had a 42% reduction in the odds of experiencing past-month psychological distress, a 35% reduction in the odds of past-year tobacco smoking, and a 44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation.

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health

BOSTON, April 28, 2021—A new study published today in JAMA Surgery found that gender-affirming surgery is associated with improved mental health outcomes

fenwayhealth.org

It seems like the movement should be generally defended.

Are there nonbinary and binary people?

Yes. They are generally just people living how you were advocating. Wearing dresses, shooting guns, eating ass, and living fast regardless of how activities might be arbitrarily gendered.

If so, is that not a binary set of categories, non-binary and binary?

Not that it proves anything, just kind of a rhetorical paradox.

Well, I personally believe gender is a spectrum and not a binary. So I don't think there is binary and non-binary, only non-binary.

I'm happy with my wife who loves me for what I am.

That's good and healthy relationship, and we should promote body positivity. I think it's important to note that body dysphoria is a medical condition, and there are trans people who don't have body dysphoria. I mean people get plastic surgery all the time without a diagnosed medical condition, so I don't find it hard supporting gender affirming surgeries.

I think "cruel" overstates it. In most cases, I would say "rude." A group of high school bullies might misgender someone as part of their cruelty. But if a person choses not to acknowledge an obvious biological male as "she," I'll call them on rudeness, not cruelty.

Again, it seems like this kind of behavior is driving up self harm among trans youth to alarming levels.

More than half of transgender male teens who participated in the survey reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, while 29.9 percent of transgender female teens said they attempted suicide. Among non-binary youth, 41.8 percent of respondents stated that they had attempted suicide at some point in their lives.


Many transgender young people experience family rejection, bullying and harassment, or feel unsafe for simply being who they are - all of which can be added risk factors for suicide.

I would call it cruel with these numbers in mind.

Also continued in an epic 2 part response

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Here a transwoman, who is a military veteran and is still well muscled and is openly physically aggressive, threatens a conservative pundit whose name escapes me with an ambulance ride for misgendering her. 2:10 in the video.

Oh god, I watched this when it first aired. Yeah this clip is massively cringe and every time I watch it I lose 6 months off my life expectancy.

That does not seem like feminist/transgender rights activism to me. That seems like the definition of toxic masculinity. I don't judge Zoe's gender identity and I thank her for her service. But I wonder why force is always the liberal fallback if their ideas make so much sense?

You are massively extrapolating from an anecdote here. Using this as a generalization of force as the liberal fallback is not really valid. I could share that recent clip of the high school student who beat the shit out of the kid with the pride flag and say that if conservatives have such good arguments why do they use violence. Anecdotes aren't really helpful when talking about broader societal trends.

As for pronouns, settle on some non-binary pronouns, promote them so everyone knows them, and this issue will become easier. But it seems the proponents of non-binary pronouns couldn't sell ice water in the desert.

My understanding is they/them is the most popular solution and seems reasonable to me.

Secondly...complete true, lol.

I'm guessing you are also well-educated, likely more so than I. Not everyone is.

Maybe on this specific issue, but you actually quite significantly outpace my in this respect. I have but a lowly BS in computer science. I just personally take interest in this topic and took my own time to learn about it. I just find talking about what gender is and how society interacts with it really fascinating.

We should be teaching them, mainly through example, and not forcing them, and not nagging them for being a few years behind us on understanding transgender issues.

The left quite possibly is the worst advocate for their own ideas. I completely agree that what you are saying is the correct and most politically efficacious way to go about it.

However, I do think it is quite understandable that people get emotional about this issue.

 

[Aristaeus]

So first off, I agree that we should move towards some kind of gender abolitionist world. However, I think the trans movement has had a net positive effect. I personally think that getting surgery should probably be held off until 17/18. I've seen some posts citing that 13 year olds have had surgery, but I still don't see how we are putting toddlers on the chopping block.

Not sure it's had a net positive effect in terms of gender abolition, when it's actually reinforcing gender stereotypes. There's a reason why gender critical feminists don't like the idea of calling men in dresses women.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Not sure it's had a net positive effect in terms of gender abolition, when it's actually reinforcing gender stereotypes.

Trans men and women are socially pressured to play out the most extreme versions of each gender role because it's the only way society accepts them. Non-binary people are also trans and it seems hard to argue they aren't promoting gender abolitionism.

There's a reason why gender critical feminists don't like the idea of calling men in dresses women.

Yeah, and there is a reason nobody likes TERFs.

 

[Aristaeus]

Trans men and women are socially pressured to play out the most extreme versions of each gender role because it's the only way society accepts them. Non-binary people are also trans and it seems hard to argue they aren't promoting gender abolitionism.

Yeah, and there is a reason nobody likes TERFs.

In what way are non-binary people trans? If you believe gender is a spectrum and not binary, as you have said, that would mean everyone is non-binary.

 

[Aristaeus]

Trans men and women are socially pressured to play out the most extreme versions of each gender role because it's the only way society accepts them. Non-binary people are also trans and it seems hard to argue they aren't promoting gender abolitionism.

Yeah, and there is a reason nobody likes TERFs.

People don't like 'TERFs' because they think women should shut up when men culturally appropriate their identity.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

In what way are non-binary people trans? If you believe gender is a spectrum and not binary, as you have said, that would mean everyone is non-binary.

To clarify, I believe we shouldn't have gender roles, not that we don't have gender roles. Non-binary people are trans because their gender is different that what was assigned to them at birth.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

People don't like 'TERFs' because they think women should shut up when men culturally appropriate their identity.

If that was true TERFs wouldn't have a problem with trans men, and yet they do. Kinda seems like people don't like TERFs because they are transphobic.

 

[Aristaeus]

To clarify, I believe we shouldn't have gender roles, not that we don't have gender roles. Non-binary people are trans because their gender is different that what was assigned to them at birth.

But you've said that you don't believe gender is binary, which would mean everyone is non-binary.

 

[Aristaeus]

If that was true TERFs wouldn't have a problem with trans men, and yet they do. Kinda seems like people don't like TERFs because they are transphobic.

gender critical feminists don't have a problem with transmen. Nor do they have a problem with transwomen who don't claim to be literally women.

The general view of gender critical women is: transwomen could have been male allies in getting rid of gender stereotypes; instead they decided that they weren't men.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

But you've said that you don't believe gender is binary, which would mean everyone is non-binary.

I believe gender is a social construct and is largely defined by self identification. I do believe that everyone is "non-binary" in the abstract sense. People tend to group themselves into categories and derive meaning and identity from that. But there is a lot of variety within even within the "binary" categories. Like femboys and tomboys. The broad category of "man" is just an arbitrary slice of the gender spectrum, just like visible light is a slice of the light spectrum.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

gender critical feminists don't have a problem with transmen. Nor do they have a problem with transwomen who don't claim to be literally women.

You do realize trans people know their biology is different than their gender, right? They are painfully aware of it. We aren't talking about biology. Trans women are women trans men are men.

The general view of gender critical women is: transwomen could have been male allies in getting rid of gender stereotypes; instead they decided that they weren't men.

Yep, now they are women allies getting rid of gender stereotypes.

The general view from TERFs is that trans men are somehow gender traitors or lost sisters or something.

She fell into the common misconception that trans men are “really women” who don’t like their bodies and have been indoctrinated into a hatred of womanhood.

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

Trans people are as diverse as the non-trans population, writes Charlie Kiss, a political activist

www.economist.com

This is the kind of thing I see from TERFs a lot. They are against all trans people.

 

[Aristaeus]

I believe gender is a social construct and is largely defined by self identification. I do believe that everyone is "non-binary" in the abstract sense. People tend to group themselves into categories and derive meaning and identity from that. But there is a lot of variety within even within the "binary" categories. Like femboys and tomboys. The broad category of "man" is just an arbitrary slice of the gender spectrum, just like visible light is a slice of the light spectrum.

Man is an adult human male. It is a biological category, not a social construct. Yes there are socially constructed roles and stereotypes attached to men and women, but a man who doesn't adhere to those stereotypes is still a man.

 

[seymourflops]

You are massively extrapolating from an anecdote here. Using this as a generalization of force as the liberal fallback is not really valid. I could share that recent clip of the high school student who beat the shit out of the kid with the pride flag and say that if conservatives have such good arguments why do they use violence.

LoL!

Yes and I would say that you're right about that. I used to post on a libertarian forum with a lot of cons who were disillusioned with the GOP. I yapped at them about force and the NAP.

Probably pretty annoying.

I talk about libs here because the forum has so many.

The rest of your post is also spot on.

 

[Aristaeus]

You do realize trans people know their biology is different than their gender, right? They are painfully aware of it. We aren't talking about biology. Trans women are women trans men are men.

Yep, now they are women allies getting rid of gender stereotypes.

The general view from TERFs is that trans men are somehow gender traitors or lost sisters or something.

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

Trans people are as diverse as the non-trans population, writes Charlie Kiss, a political activist

www.economist.com

This is the kind of thing I see from TERFs a lot. They are against all trans people.

How are they getting rid of gender stereotypes when they are literally insisting they're not men because they don't adhere to stereotypical male gender roles? When they say that being a woman is a feeling?

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I talk about libs here because the forum has so many.

Ugh, understandable lol.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

How are they getting rid of gender stereotypes when they are literally insisting they're not men because they don't adhere to stereotypical male gender roles? When they say that being a woman is a feeling?

That isn't what they are insisting. There is a difference between a transwomen and a femboy. You can not adhere to gender roles and still be that gender.

 

[buck]

People don't like 'TERFs' because they think women should shut up when men culturally appropriate their identity.

Not women. I think you mean "bodies with vaginas".

which is exactly how I thought of women when I was a young, teenage, hormone ridden machine. Now that's how some on the left think of all females.