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Train Wreck: Continued

Duke

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Busta said:
Since I wasn't talking about God hating anyone, and I've made clear that I am just as "worthy of death" as any homosexual, I'm afraid I don't follow what you are trying to say.

I don't think that is the case with most sects of Christianity, but it is true. If he was trying to attack you with that, he is wrong on that one.


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OK Busta. I looked at post 1 & 43

"A man's reason may be the equivalent of what the bible refers to as "knowledge of good and evil";"

No it may not. According to the Bible, knowledge is evil. Just look at the story of the garden of Eden.

"A life-long, monogamous relationship between a heterosexual man and woman, who bear and raise children, but who never Marry, does not posses the same value as a similar but Married couple. This is because the unmarried couple, by choosing not too forge their relationship by the Name of the Creator-Force, are doing nothing different then what is found in the animal kingdom."

And God says this where? I see no such thing using reason, which IS what separates us from the animals.

"If we endorse and promot homosexuality as a preferred, elevated and superior relationship, then we, by not being able to call on the Name of the Creator-Force to forge these relationships, are doing nothing better then what is found in the animal kingdom."

Umm, how do you promote it? If you're not attracted to the same-sex, you can't force yourself. Common sense.

"If Man's law views alternative relationships as having the same value as a Marriage, then Man's law becomes no better then "The Law of the Jungle". Marriage is *not* "strictly a legal contract", because Man's law is based on Man's reason. Man's reason is an attribute of the same design by which the unique ability to call on the Name of the Creator-Force is also an attribute.Too embrace the attribute of reason but to shun the attribute of calling on the Name of the Creator-Force is too cherry-pick which parts of our design to follow based on what we find convenient."

I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm attracted to the same sex and if I wasn't I wouldn't be.

If you had a decent grasp of reason you wouldn't be deriding it. I mean, I'm not some intellectual elitist, but reason really isn't difficult to understand. I do occasionally make logical flaws, but who doesn't? Just because we can't use something perfectly 100% of the time doesn't mean we should ditch it, but instead look where a mistake was made and correct it. As long as there is reason behind giving equal (but not preferred) value to an alternative relationship (not really an alternative there, unless you're bisexual) it is not the same as "The Law of the Jungle". I'm taking Man's Reason rather than calling on YOUR "Name of the Creator-Force" (that name would be God) who just so happens to agree with you. So unless you will stop basing your views on your version of what God wants I see no reason in bothering to continue.
 

sissy-boy

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Busta said:
Yes, God disaproves of Homosexuality.
Everyone on Earth has equil access to God. You can use prayer, meditation, whatever you like. Our cores are the same, we all came from the same place, and we will all end up in the same place.


Depends upon which faith you adhere to. Some believe that you end up in another animal, some believe we end up in 'Heaven', dancing eternally among the faeries. If you mean we all 'DIE' then yes, you're right.

I did not sugest that I had more privvy to 'God's word' than you, you assumed that. Just as you assumed that anti same-sex marriage legislation is "punishment". You have yet to provide any evidence of either.


I've provided every bit of evidence that it is INTOLERANT and bigoted, if you can't SEE it, that is your problem, not mine.

"Every person on this planet is no more worthy or unworthy than anyone else."
Hello? That's what I've been saying.....
Am I not the one who showed the "Rule-Zero" for following divine law?
James 2:10;
10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker".


Adultery is not a 'sin'. Though it may be according to your understanding and that's fine, but don't try to suggest that your understanding has any more merit than anyone else's. Because it does NOT.

"For you to suggest that God approves of YOUR lifestyle more than mine is actually a very blasphemous thing to say -- and that's using YOUR idea of God."
Now you are altering the parameters of this thread by going beyond the scope of gay 'marriage.


Why not? You DID, when you spoke of 'sin'. I can 'go beyond' any scope I choose to in order to prove my point.

As I have said over and over and over.......I am no more innocent than any homosexual, nor am I any less "worthy of death" than any homosexual. *I am just as guilty as you.*


But I'm not guilty. That's the difference between you and me I suppose. I don't believe in a God that penalizes and punishes. That's where your spiritual understanding is different from mine. There simply IS no 'final judgement'. We are judged every day by the choices we make and the consequences that they entail.

"The Lord rebukes you" does not say any of what you have assumed that I implied. That was a quote from the Arch Angel Micheal:
Jude 1:9;
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."


That means nothing to me. I don't read words written by men who fear God. I don't fear God.

Basically, saying (granted, in modern English) "The Lord rebukes you" is a way of telling someone that they are inconsistent with God's law and will, WITHOUT accusation, insult or implied superiority.


Nope. It's just an excuse to practice intolerance. You could choose any number of 'sins' to attack. Why aren't you out trying to prevent fornicators from marrying and suggest a ban on that?? That is a 'sin' that really HAS done damage to the 'institution'.

You said that God had blessed a homosexual union, yet homosexuality is rejected the very law that those women wished to be married by. So, I was using our mutual idea of God, not my own.


You can believe that if you want. God does not reject homosexuality. God blesses it and loves to see peple express love for one another. How or whom they express love to is of no consquence.

If I were as you wish me to be painted, then I would have never conceded my vote so as too be in favor of same-sex 'marriage.


Nope. It really doens't matter to me how you feel about same-sex marriage, you can rally against it all you want. It's when intolerance creepst into LAW and our government that causes the problems. Just as it has throughout America's history. This year it's gay marriage. Last year it was inter-racial marriage. The year after next it will be abortion or the death penalty.

I would go so far as to call rallying against homosexuals 'hate speech'. Like the minister in Scandanavia who was criminally charged, I wouldn't be dissappointed if these christian evangelicals would be arrested for such words against homosexuality. If this kind of thing is on television and in the public eye it should be met with resistance.
 

Busta

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"Depends upon which faith you adhere to. Some believe that you end up in another animal, some believe we end up in 'Heaven', dancing eternally among the faeries. If you mean we all 'DIE' then yes, you're right."
No, I'm not talking about death.
We all have the same divine spark of life. We all came from God. We will all end up back with God.

"I've provided every bit of evidence that it is INTOLERANT and bigoted, if you can't SEE it, that is your problem, not mine."
You presented evidence of your own assumptions and interpretations, and that's what I saw.
"The Lord rebukes you" doesn't imply any of what you assumed. It just miens that you are not compliant with God's law on that issue. That's it.

"Adultery is not a 'sin'."
The Lord rebukes you.

"Though it may be according to your understanding and that's fine, but don't try to suggest that your understanding has any more merit than anyone else's. Because it does NOT."
Merit proves itself. I need suggest nothing.
Would you like a bible quote or two?...perhaps something from the quaran?..a side of Yin-Yang in absence of Yin-Yin or Yang-Yang?...should I liken it to phisics with a splash of "opposites attract".......2 plugs nor 2 sockets will compleat the cirkit with out intervention (= unnatural)....you can not power your computer with electrons allone, there must also be protons at the other end of the circit....perhaps I'll give my old Wiccan priestess a call and ask her to explain how the elimination of either the masculine or the feminine would retain balance...or should I go back to the point-blank observation that the software doesn't match the hardware? A woman is physically incapable of being a husband. A man is phisically incapable of being a wife.

An evidence of a natural order is the fact that neither 2 healthy men, nor 2 healthy women, can "be one flesh" and produce children; they must always go outside of their relationship to do so, just like an unhealthy opposite-sex couple.

A healthy man and a healthy woman, however, can produce children within their union.

As I've said, if one wishes to persue a homosexual relationship, so be it. I will not oppose you. But to say that it is the same as an opposite-sex union is a lie.

"Why not? You DID, when you spoke of 'sin'. I can 'go beyond' any scope I choose to in order to prove my point."
You said that God blessed a homosexual union. Homosexuality is rejected by the very law that those women wished to be married by.
Either God did not bless such a union, or in doing so He contradicted Himself, thus nullifying His own law, and rendering inert such a blessing.

Since God's law is still around, He did not contradict himself. witch only leaves the first option: He didn't bless such a union.

"But I'm not guilty."
Say it with me now...The....Lord....rebukes....you....
We are all law breakers.

I don't believe in a God that penalizes and punishes.
Not now that we have had the final sacrifice for sin, no. He leaves us to our divices unless we ask for intervention.
You might say that God is very pro. Choice.

"That's where your spiritual understanding is different from mine. There simply IS no 'final judgment'. We are judged every day by the choices we make and the consequences that they entail."
Sure, consequences exist, but that is not the judgment.

Betty J. Eadie, in her book Embraced By the Light, sums up my consept of the big J.:
(page #112...emphasis in original)

"I stepped to my left too wach the review. It occurred in the place where I had been standing. My life appeared before me in the form of what we might consider extremely well defined holograms, but at tremendous speed. I was astonished that I could understand so much information at such a speed. My comprehension much more than what I remember happening during each event of my life. I not only experienced my own emotionsat each moment, but also what others around me felt.

"I experienced their thoughts and feelings about me.There were times when things became clear to me in a new way "Yes", I would say to myself. "Oh, yes. Now I see. Well who would have guessed? But of course it makes sense."

"I saw the disappointment that I had cawsed in others, and I cringed as their feelings of disappointment filled me, compounded by my own guilt. I understood all the suffering I had caused, and I felt it. I began to tremble. I saw how much grief my bad temper had caused, and I suffered this grief. I saw my selfishness, and my heart cried for relief. How could I been so uncaring?

"Then in the midst of my pain, I felt the love of the council come over me. They watched my life with understanding and mercy. Everything about me was taken into consideration, how I was raised, the things I had been thought, the pain given me by others, the opportunities I had received or not received. And I realized that the council was not judging me. I was judging my self.

"Their love and mercy were absolute. Their respect for me could never be lessened. I was especially greatfull for their love as the next phase of my review passed before me.

"I was shown the "ripple effect", as they described it. I saw how I had wronged people and how they had often turned to others and committed a similar wrong. This chain continued from victim to victim, like a circle of domino's, until it came back. I had offended far more people then I knew, and my pain multiplied and became unbearable.

"The Savior stepped toward me, full of concern and love. His spirit gave me strength, and he said that I was judging myself too critically. "You are being too harsh on yourself", he said. Then he showed me the reverse side of the ripple effect.

'I saw myself perform an act of kindness, just a simple act of unselfishness, and I saw the ripples go out again. The friend I had been kind to was kind in turn kind to one of her friends, and the chain repeated itself.

I saw love and happiness increase in other's lives because of that one simple act on my part. I saw their happiness grow and affect their lives in positive ways, some significantly. My pain was replaced with joy. I felt the love they felt, I felt their joy. And this from one simple act of kindness.

"A powerfull thought hit me, and I repeated it over and over in my mind: "Love is really the only thing that matters. Love is really the only thing that matters, and love is joy."

I recalled the scripture that said, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10), and my soul was filled with this abundant joy."

"That means nothing to me. I don't read words written by men who fear God. I don't fear God."
You choose the 'blue pill' instead of the 'red pill'. That's fine, but until you choose to fear God you will not understand why you need fear nothing at all; nor will you understand the wisdom in faith.

"Nope. It's just an excuse to practice intolerance."
That's what you would like it to be, because that would fit your view of the world. But just isn't so.

"You could choose any number of 'sins' to attack."
And were back to "attacking" again. As I said, I am not predisposed to a persecution complex. I am not "attacking" anything.

"Why aren't you out trying to prevent fornicators from marrying and suggest a ban on that?? That is a 'sin' that really HAS done damage to the 'institution."
Fornication don by anyone not married is just fornication. Fornication don by married people which involves someone who said married person is not married to is called Adultery.

"You can believe that if you want. God does not reject homosexuality. God blesses it and loves to see people express love for one another. How or whom they express love to is of no consequence."
There you go with the whole "God blesses homosexuality" thing again.
Sure, why don't you just say "God blesses adultery" or "God blesses theft"? You would make just as much sense.

The Lord rebukes you.

God blesses love and forgives homosexuality.

The consequence of homosexuality has to do with the adversary's plan to weaken us.
Shall we discuss that?
 

Busta

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sissy-boy said:

Nope. It really doens't matter to me how you feel about same-sex marriage, you can rally against it all you want. It's when intolerance creepst into LAW and our government that causes the problems. Just as it has throughout America's history. This year it's gay marriage. Last year it was inter-racial marriage. The year after next it will be abortion or the death penalty.

I would go so far as to call rallying against homosexuals 'hate speech'. Like the minister in Scandanavia who was criminally charged, I wouldn't be dissappointed if these christian evangelicals would be arrested for such words against homosexuality.
Irony:
First you say "It's when intolerance creepst into LAW and our government that causes the problems";

Then you say "I would go so far as to call rallying against homosexuals 'hate speech'......I wouldn't be dissappointed if these christian evangelicals would be arrested for such words against homosexuality.";

So much for tolerating others when they have an opposing view. You prove yourself of being just as intolerent as you accuse me of being.
See my Sig.
 

Busta

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Busta:
"A man's reason may be the equivalent of what the bible refers to as "knowledge of good and evil";"
Columbustite:
"No it may not. According to the Bible, knowledge is evil. Just look at the story of the garden of Eden."

Man was placed in Eden to tend the garden. This implies the use of tools, a knowledge of seasons, and a knowledge of Botany.
God brought all of the animals to Adam so that Adam could name them. This shows a knowledge of a complex language, though not written.

When an adversary, a Hasatan, a fallen angel by the name of Gadrel, approached Eve in the garden, he had to reason with her in order to convince her to eat from the tree of life. She knew she wasn't supposed too. It was this eating of the tree of life, which brought about the specific knowledge of good and evil, *not* any and all knowledge at all, which was forbidden.

Where traditional ideology comes into conflict with knowing information is where that information would lead Man astray. Such as knowledge of weapons of war. Technology too produce pictures (promotes idolatry. This is why Mohomid forbayed imagery in Mosques....so that he, a man, would not be worshiped) and knowledge of writing (because Man is not supposed to rely on the written word to affirm his faith...*cawf* bible-thumpers *cawf*...).

Since these things have been discovered to men, it is now the duty of the righteous man to learn all that is known by his fellow man, so as not to be ignorant of Hasatan's divices.

Busta:
"A life-long, monogamous relationship between a heterosexual man and woman..."
Columbustite:
"And God says this where?"
Not sure I follow. What do you mien? Like a bible quote or something?

"I see no such thing using reason, which IS what separates us from the animals."
The ability to think and reason is not unique to humans. Take Cocoa the Guerrilla, Dolfins and Octopi' for example. Reason allone is not what separates us from the animal kingdom, but the total sum of our being.

"Umm, how do you promote it? If you're not attracted to the same-sex, you can't force yourself. Common sense."
One does not need to be homosexual in order to say "Marriage is about love. Every American should be allowed to marry whoever they wish. Though I don't want to marry a man, I will not infring on your right to merry a man if that is what you want to do."

"I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm attracted to the same sex and if I wasn't I wouldn't be."
You are, of-coarse, free to persue what ever sort of relationship you wish. I am just pointing out the fact that one can not consicrate a homosexual marriage by the Name of our Creator because homosexual acts are against the Creator's law.

No other animal on the plannet can invoke the Creator's name, that is a unique quality of Man. Any relationship that we humans persue can be of immense personal meaning, value and quality. But since one can only invoke the name of the Creator to form a *one man and one woman* Marriage, all other forms of "marriage" are nothing more than what is found in the animal kingdom.

However, one could forge a Brotherhood or Sisterhood by the Name of the Creator.......

"As long as there is reason behind giving equal (but not preferred) value to an alternative relationship (not really an alternative there, unless you're bisexual) it is not the same as "The Law of the Jungle""
Their is allot of reason and evidence of systom in nature. Nature makes allot of sense. Where we Humans differ with our environment is that we can subdue it. We can overcome the inherent flaws and limitations of nature.

That is the function of our design. We have *choice*, all other animals do not. They run off of their natural "programming". If part of your personal "programing" predisposes you toward homosexuality, then you can either choose to embrace this "programing", or you can choose to surpass it.
The primary difference between a one-man-and-one-woman union and all others is that the first is from a higher order then the planet's, while all others come from the planet's level of order.

By shunning a higher order, we keep ourselves at the same level as the planet. This is against human nature because our unique design propells us to overcome...subdue...surpass nature, the plannet.

I have been careful not to apply a moral value to homosexuality because I do not wish to judge others. I have my own flaws and demons to contend with. So just as I would not want others to condom me for my inadequacies, nither will I condemn you for yours.

"I'm taking Man's Reason rather than calling on YOUR "Name of the Creator-Force" (that name would be God) who just so happens to agree with you."
I didn't name God. I didn't create Man. I didn't set the universe in motion. God made His law, not me. I am a law breaker, just like everyone ells on this plannet.

"So unless you will stop basing your views on your version of what God wants I see no reason in bothering to continue."
My knowledge is incomplete, my understanding flawed...yes...but when you take God out of the argument, there is no argument. When you remove the guide-rule you can do as you wish...though nothing will become of your own way, because you are flawed...and, thus, so is your way. God, however, is perfect, thus His way is perfect.

The key difference between myself and mainstream "believers" is that I know and acknowledge that my understanding is incomplete; my "version" is flawed.

That's why I'm here...to hammer out the imperfections, fix the holes....refine my understanding....make compleat my "version".
 

Busta

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From Embraced by the Light, by Betty J. Eadie, page 110;

"I saw the spirit of God resting upon Eve, and I understood that the role of women would always be unique in the world. I saw that the emotional structure of women allowed them to be more responsive to love and to allow the Spirit of God to rest upon them more fully. I understood that their roles as mothers literally gave them a special relationship to God as creators.

"I also understood the peril of women faced from Satan. I saw that he would use the same process of temptation in the world that had been used in the garden. He would try to distroy families, and therefore humanity, by tempting women. This unsettled me, but I knew it was true. His plan seemed obvious.

"He would attack women through their restlessness, using their strength of their emotions-the same emotions that gave Eve power to move when Adam was too satisfied with his situation. I understood that he would attack the relationship between husband and wife, distancing them from eachother, using the attractions of sex and greed to distroy their home.

I saw that children would be damaged by broken homes and that women would then be weighed down with fear and perhaps guilt-guilt as they saw their families fall apart, and fear for the future.

"Satan could then use fear and guilt to distroy women and their divinly appointed purpose on earth. I was told that once Satan had the women, the men would easily follow."
 

sissy-boy

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Busta said:
"Depends upon which faith you adhere to. Some believe that you end up in another animal, some believe we end up in 'Heaven', dancing eternally among the faeries. If you mean we all 'DIE' then yes, you're right."
No, I'm not talking about death.
We all have the same divine spark of life. We all came from God. We will all end up back with God.

"I've provided every bit of evidence that it is INTOLERANT and bigoted, if you can't SEE it, that is your problem, not mine."
You presented evidence of your own assumptions and interpretations, and that's what I saw.
"The Lord rebukes you" doesn't imply any of what you assumed. It just miens that you are not compliant with God's law on that issue. That's it.

"Adultery is not a 'sin'."
The Lord rebukes you.

"Though it may be according to your understanding and that's fine, but don't try to suggest that your understanding has any more merit than anyone else's. Because it does NOT."
Merit proves itself. I need suggest nothing.
Would you like a bible quote or two?...perhaps something from the quaran?..a side of Yin-Yang in absence of Yin-Yin or Yang-Yang?...should I liken it to phisics with a splash of "opposites attract".......2 plugs nor 2 sockets will compleat the cirkit with out intervention (= unnatural)....you can not power your computer with electrons allone, there must also be protons at the other end of the circit....perhaps I'll give my old Wiccan priestess a call and ask her to explain how the elimination of either the masculine or the feminine would retain balance...or should I go back to the point-blank observation that the software doesn't match the hardware? A woman is physically incapable of being a husband. A man is phisically incapable of being a wife.

An evidence of a natural order is the fact that neither 2 healthy men, nor 2 healthy women, can "be one flesh" and produce children; they must always go outside of their relationship to do so, just like an unhealthy opposite-sex couple.

A healthy man and a healthy woman, however, can produce children within their union.

As I've said, if one wishes to persue a homosexual relationship, so be it. I will not oppose you. But to say that it is the same as an opposite-sex union is a lie.

"Why not? You DID, when you spoke of 'sin'. I can 'go beyond' any scope I choose to in order to prove my point."
You said that God blessed a homosexual union. Homosexuality is rejected by the very law that those women wished to be married by.
Either God did not bless such a union, or in doing so He contradicted Himself, thus nullifying His own law, and rendering inert such a blessing.

Since God's law is still around, He did not contradict himself. witch only leaves the first option: He didn't bless such a union.

"But I'm not guilty."
Say it with me now...The....Lord....rebukes....you....
We are all law breakers.

I don't believe in a God that penalizes and punishes.
Not now that we have had the final sacrifice for sin, no. He leaves us to our divices unless we ask for intervention.
You might say that God is very pro. Choice.

"That's where your spiritual understanding is different from mine. There simply IS no 'final judgment'. We are judged every day by the choices we make and the consequences that they entail."
Sure, consequences exist, but that is not the judgment.

Betty J. Eadie, in her book Embraced By the Light, sums up my consept of the big J.:
(page #112...emphasis in original)

"I stepped to my left too wach the review. It occurred in the place where I had been standing. My life appeared before me in the form of what we might consider extremely well defined holograms, but at tremendous speed. I was astonished that I could understand so much information at such a speed. My comprehension much more than what I remember happening during each event of my life. I not only experienced my own emotionsat each moment, but also what others around me felt.

"I experienced their thoughts and feelings about me.There were times when things became clear to me in a new way "Yes", I would say to myself. "Oh, yes. Now I see. Well who would have guessed? But of course it makes sense."

"I saw the disappointment that I had cawsed in others, and I cringed as their feelings of disappointment filled me, compounded by my own guilt. I understood all the suffering I had caused, and I felt it. I began to tremble. I saw how much grief my bad temper had caused, and I suffered this grief. I saw my selfishness, and my heart cried for relief. How could I been so uncaring?

"Then in the midst of my pain, I felt the love of the council come over me. They watched my life with understanding and mercy. Everything about me was taken into consideration, how I was raised, the things I had been thought, the pain given me by others, the opportunities I had received or not received. And I realized that the council was not judging me. I was judging my self.

"Their love and mercy were absolute. Their respect for me could never be lessened. I was especially greatfull for their love as the next phase of my review passed before me.

"I was shown the "ripple effect", as they described it. I saw how I had wronged people and how they had often turned to others and committed a similar wrong. This chain continued from victim to victim, like a circle of domino's, until it came back. I had offended far more people then I knew, and my pain multiplied and became unbearable.

"The Savior stepped toward me, full of concern and love. His spirit gave me strength, and he said that I was judging myself too critically. "You are being too harsh on yourself", he said. Then he showed me the reverse side of the ripple effect.

'I saw myself perform an act of kindness, just a simple act of unselfishness, and I saw the ripples go out again. The friend I had been kind to was kind in turn kind to one of her friends, and the chain repeated itself.

I saw love and happiness increase in other's lives because of that one simple act on my part. I saw their happiness grow and affect their lives in positive ways, some significantly. My pain was replaced with joy. I felt the love they felt, I felt their joy. And this from one simple act of kindness.

"A powerfull thought hit me, and I repeated it over and over in my mind: "Love is really the only thing that matters. Love is really the only thing that matters, and love is joy."

I recalled the scripture that said, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10), and my soul was filled with this abundant joy."

"That means nothing to me. I don't read words written by men who fear God. I don't fear God."
You choose the 'blue pill' instead of the 'red pill'. That's fine, but until you choose to fear God you will not understand why you need fear nothing at all; nor will you understand the wisdom in faith.

"Nope. It's just an excuse to practice intolerance."
That's what you would like it to be, because that would fit your view of the world. But just isn't so.

"You could choose any number of 'sins' to attack."
And were back to "attacking" again. As I said, I am not predisposed to a persecution complex. I am not "attacking" anything.

"Why aren't you out trying to prevent fornicators from marrying and suggest a ban on that?? That is a 'sin' that really HAS done damage to the 'institution."
Fornication don by anyone not married is just fornication. Fornication don by married people which involves someone who said married person is not married to is called Adultery.

"You can believe that if you want. God does not reject homosexuality. God blesses it and loves to see people express love for one another. How or whom they express love to is of no consequence."
There you go with the whole "God blesses homosexuality" thing again.
Sure, why don't you just say "God blesses adultery" or "God blesses theft"? You would make just as much sense.

The Lord rebukes you.

God blesses love and forgives homosexuality.

The consequence of homosexuality has to do with the adversary's plan to weaken us.
Shall we discuss that?


That's an awfully long mouthful of 'I'm right and you're wrong." I couldn't even bother reading more than the first couple sentences, but I suppose for you that is the only 'Truth' you're willing to trust and have faith in. And since it is, all I can wish you is the simple PROMISE that 'More will be revealed." I hope that you will come to know God and trust in God as I have and I'm sorry that you're so limited in such a fundamentally repressed way. The Universe is a LOT more complex and wonderful than your ideology seems to allow and with that limited of a worldview it must be hard to dream.

I'll just try to remember a couple words some fool said 'Forgive them, for they know not what they say.'

Peace & Queer Love, Not WAR!!
 
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sissy-boy

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Busta said:
From Embraced by the Light, by Betty J. Eadie, page 110;

"I saw the spirit of God resting upon Eve, and I understood that the role of women would always be unique in the world. I saw that the emotional structure of women allowed them to be more responsive to love and to allow the Spirit of God to rest upon them more fully. I understood that their roles as mothers literally gave them a special relationship to God as creators.

"I also understood the peril of women faced from Satan. I saw that he would use the same process of temptation in the world that had been used in the garden. He would try to distroy families, and therefore humanity, by tempting women. This unsettled me, but I knew it was true. His plan seemed obvious.

"He would attack women through their restlessness, using their strength of their emotions-the same emotions that gave Eve power to move when Adam was too satisfied with his situation. I understood that he would attack the relationship between husband and wife, distancing them from eachother, using the attractions of sex and greed to distroy their home.

I saw that children would be damaged by broken homes and that women would then be weighed down with fear and perhaps guilt-guilt as they saw their families fall apart, and fear for the future.

"Satan could then use fear and guilt to distroy women and their divinly appointed purpose on earth. I was told that once Satan had the women, the men would easily follow."




How sad that post was. Why would people who have so much fear in them even go on? Pretty sad that 'God' put all that fear into them -- all those satan 'boogeymen' to fret and worry about.

It's sad, if not a bit pathetic.


The Boat

The Guest is inside you, and also inside me;
you know the sprout is hidden inside the seed.
We are all struggling; none of us has gone far.
Let your arrogance go, and look around inside.

The blue sky opens out farther and farther,
the daily sense of failure goes away,
the damage I have done to myself fades,
a million suns come forward with light,
when I sit firmly in that world.

I hear bells ringing that no one has shaken;
inside "love" there is more joy than we know of;
rain pours down, although the sky is clear of clouds;
there are whole rivers of light.
The universe is shot in all parts by a single sort of
love.
How hard it is to feel that joy in all our four
bodies!

Those who hope to be reasonable about it fail.
The arrogance of reason has separated us from that
love.
With the word "reason" you already feel miles away.

How lucky Kabir is, that surrounded by all this joy
he sings inside his own little boat.
His poems amount to one soul meeting another.
These songs are about forgetting dying and loss.
They rise above coming in and going out.

~ Kabir



 

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sissy-boy said:

I couldn't even bother reading more than the first couple sentences,

And herein lies about 30% of the reason you have no credibility. The other 70%...well, we arent in the basement now, so I will refrain from making that assertion here.
 

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Busta said:
Irony:
First you say "It's when intolerance creepst into LAW and our government that causes the problems";

Then you say "I would go so far as to call rallying against homosexuals 'hate speech'......I wouldn't be dissappointed if these christian evangelicals would be arrested for such words against homosexuality.";

So much for tolerating others when they have an opposing view. You prove yourself of being just as intolerent as you accuse me of being.
See my Sig.


I'm all for free speech. But when ministers call for DEATH, like so many do, that is crossing the line. How would YOU like it if some of the idiots like Fred Phelps came to your DAUGHTER'S FUNERAL with signs about killing her because she had SEX?!

You may say that godhatesfags.com is an example of christian extremism, but more and more I see groups like this popping up all over the nation. And more and more this brand of 'christian extremism' is becoming the norm and THEY simply regard themselves as FAITHFUL Christians, much like the FAITHFUL Muslims who attacked the WTC on 9/11. These religious fanatics who are willing to DIE or KILL for their 'cause' are dangerous and are fast becoming synonymous with terrorism itself.

And to say we haven't been warned about this already is a little naive.
 

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jallman said:
And herein lies about 30% of the reason you have no credibility. The other 70%...well, we arent in the basement now, so I will refrain from making that assertion here.


I didn't need to read it. I skimmed over it and it said nothing more than the 8 previous posts. But, for YOU, I'll paraphrase: He said that you were not worthy of God's approval because of what sex you chose to love. Now if YOU are going to tell me you agree with that, then I suggest you go back to your 'tolerant' church.
 

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Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." I came across this quote quite randomly whilst researching, and I thought of this thread. Writing like this makes me question many parts of Christianity, for in the holiest documents they have statments that could support hate. I know that most Christians do not take the Bible and other holy writings literally, (IE: "spirit of the law" etc.) but it does make a person ponder.


Duke
 

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sissy-boy said:

I didn't need to read it. I skimmed over it and it said nothing more than the 8 previous posts. But, for YOU, I'll paraphrase: He said that you were not worthy of God's approval because of what sex you chose to love. Now if YOU are going to tell me you agree with that, then I suggest you go back to your 'tolerant' church.


Hmmm. thats funny...I didnt get that at all. I read that sects of Christianity have a moral opposition to homosexuality...I gathered that Busta has a personal objection to the homosexual lifestyle that stems from his own spiritual conviction and that given the choice, no he would not vote pro gay marriage. However, true to form, the only intolerance and bigotry I am seeing is yours against his personal choice of religion.
 

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jallman said:
Hmmm. thats funny...I didnt get that at all. I read that sects of Christianity have a moral opposition to homosexuality...I gathered that Busta has a personal objection to the homosexual lifestyle that stems from his own spiritual conviction and that given the choice, no he would not vote pro gay marriage. However, true to form, the only intolerance and bigotry I am seeing is yours against his personal choice of religion.


HAHAHA!!
hmmmm...

Well let's see, how about I start a RELIGION who's moral PRINCIPLE is to rail against heterosexual marriage and get the government to try to pass my 'religious principle' as law. Would you join that church? You joined one that thinks that you're nothing more than a sinner, why not join my church? We could call it 'Antiheteromatrimonialism'. Of course we'd only allow persons to join who wouldn't actively go out and push the law that our Bible calls for to KILL heterosexuals that marry, we'd be tolerant and merely explain to them that they are simply not going to inherit God's kingdom and that they should not be permitted to teach our children to eat corn on the cob because they're sinning perverts. Does that sound better? Of course that isn't INTOLERANT now is it?

What d'ya say? Wanna SIGN UP?

 

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sissy-boy said:

HAHAHA!!
hmmmm...

Well let's see, how about I start a RELIGION who's moral PRINCIPLE is to rail against heterosexual marriage and get the government to try to pass my 'religious principle' as law. Would you join that church? You joined one that thinks that you're nothing more than a sinner, why not join my church? We could call it 'Antiheteromatrimonialism'. Of course we'd only allow persons to join who wouldn't actively go out and push the law that our Bible calls for to KILL heterosexuals that marry, we'd be tolerant and merely explain to them that they are simply not going to inherit God's kingdom and that they should not be permitted to teach our children to eat corn on the cob because they're sinning perverts. Does that sound better? Of course that isn't INTOLERANT now is it?

What d'ya say? Wanna SIGN UP?


I should have expected no more than this silliness. I dont think I have ever seen busta make a comment to the effect that he wishes to pass law banning gay marriage...only that he would not vote for it if presented the bill. What is your problem? I'm serious now...do you have such raging wood to be insulting that you dont read...well who am I kidding, you already admitted that you dont read posts.
 

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jallman said:
I should have expected no more than this silliness. I dont think I have ever seen busta make a comment to the effect that he wishes to pass law banning gay marriage...only that he would not vote for it if presented the bill. What is your problem? I'm serious now...do you have such raging wood to be insulting that you dont read...well who am I kidding, you already admitted that you dont read posts.


Well now. Isn't THAT a great way for you to WEASEL yourself away from ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

It wasn't I that insulted him in the least. I was trying to figure out what you just asked. Why don't you ask him yourself? All he'll do is beat around the bush with scripture and fables and talk about EVE if he thinks you'll actually READ it.

It's all really about personal responsibility. And it's the ONLY reason that I ever came to this forum in the first place. It was after reading the illogical response to someone who said that they didn't want gay marriage because it was 'wrong'. I'm interested in the pathology behind those kinds of people to try to discover where the bigotry is derived. And I already discovered it is from religion and society.

And it's unfortunate that you can't see it for what it truly is. I can accept it fine, but I will not tolerate it in this day and age, because we should have learned a few lessons about DIFFERENCE and how much it harms society. If there was a little bit more LOVE and tolerance in the world we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And something as ridiculous as 'gay marriage' wouldn't even need any discussion or even face obstacles. Some of these things are just SELF-EVIDENT. And where have you heard that before??



“Everywhere the blades turn, in every thought the butchery, and it is raw where I wander; but you hide me in the shelter of your name, and you open the hardness to tears.” ~Leonard Cohen, ‘Book of Mercy’





 

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sissy-boy said:

That's an awfully long mouthful of 'I'm right and you're wrong." I couldn't even bother reading more than the first couple sentences, but I suppose for you that is the only 'Truth' you're willing to trust and have faith in. And since it is, all I can wish you is the simple PROMISE that 'More will be revealed." I hope that you will come to know God and trust in God as I have and I'm sorry that you're so limited in such a fundamentally repressed way. The Universe is a LOT more complex and wonderful than your ideology seems to allow and with that limited of a worldview it must be hard to dream.

I'll just try to remember a couple words some fool said 'Forgive them, for they know not what they say.'

Peace & Queer Love, Not WAR!!
It's a shame you didn't read it. Betty J. Eadie's book Embraced By the Light is a good read.
 

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sissy-boy said:

I'm all for free speech. But when ministers call for DEATH, like so many do, that is crossing the line. How would YOU like it if some of the idiots like Fred Phelps came to your DAUGHTER'S FUNERAL with signs about killing her because she had SEX?!
You may say that godhatesfags.com is an example of christian extremism, but more and more I see groups like this popping up all over the nation. And more and more this brand of 'christian extremism' is becoming the norm and THEY simply regard themselves as FAITHFUL Christians, much like the FAITHFUL Muslims who attacked the WTC on 9/11. These religious fanatics who are willing to DIE or KILL for their 'cause' are dangerous and are fast becoming synonymous with terrorism itself.
And to say we haven't been warned about this already is a little naive.
Um....I'm not a member of the clergy nor am I calling for anyone's death.
 

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sissy-boy said:

I didn't need to read it. I skimmed over it and it said nothing more than the 8 previous posts. But, for YOU, I'll paraphrase: He said that you were not worthy of God's approval because of what sex you chose to love. Now if YOU are going to tell me you agree with that, then I suggest you go back to your 'tolerant' church.
Quite the opposite, really.
God loves you no matter what you do.
You should go back and read that post.
 

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Duke said:
Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." I came across this quote quite randomly whilst researching, and I thought of this thread. Writing like this makes me question many parts of Christianity, for in the holiest documents they have statments that could support hate. I know that most Christians do not take the Bible and other holy writings literally, (IE: "spirit of the law" etc.) but it does make a person ponder.
Duke
I just don't see how you make the leap from "dislike and disapproval" (= abomination) to "hate". That passage does not promote "hate". That passage tells you that God disapproves and dislikes homosexual sex......that doesn't even apply to a homosexual relationship....just the act of sex itself.
 

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jallman said:
Hmmm. thats funny...I didnt get that at all. I read that sects of Christianity have a moral opposition to homosexuality...I gathered that Busta has a personal objection to the homosexual lifestyle that stems from his own spiritual conviction and that given the choice, no he would not vote pro gay marriage. However, true to form, the only intolerance and bigotry I am seeing is yours against his personal choice of religion.
If I may correct something here.....
I conceded my vote a while back and WILL vote in favor of same-sex 'marriage. Homosexual people have asked for marital rights, so, just because they asked, for my part I will give it to them.

I hope that many same-sex couples form loving families and improve upon society.

Sissy-boy keeps accusing me of being intolerant, etc....yet I support his ability to legally 'wed another man.

We disagree philosophically..with the exception of the impotence of love. So I suppose that my vote in support of same-sex 'marriage is a gift of love toward my fellow Man. I give it freely and with out condition.
 

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Busta said:
If I may correct something here.....
I conceded my vote a while back and WILL vote in favor of same-sex 'marriage. Homosexual people have asked for marital rights, so, just because they asked, for my part I will give it to them.

I hope that many same-sex couples form loving families and improve upon society.

Sissy-boy keeps accusing me of being intolerant, etc....yet I support his ability to legally 'wed another man.

We disagree philosophically..with the exception of the impotence of love. So I suppose that my vote in support of same-sex 'marriage is a gift of love toward my fellow Man. I give it freely and with out condition.

Wow, busta...I have to say that I am very impressed by that decision and it shows that I was right about you all along! I was referencing our earlier conversations in the above post. I hadnt realized that you had come around on that topic. Way to go man!!! You are a stand up guy.
 

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jallman said:
Wow, busta...I have to say that I am very impressed by that decision and it shows that I was right about you all along! I was referencing our earlier conversations in the above post. I hadnt realized that you had come around on that topic. Way to go man!!! You are a stand up guy.
:thanks: You really know how to make a guy feel special..... :party
I didn't fully understand why I should have given my vote when I conceded it....but now that I have, I do.

Love is really all that matters.
 

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Busta said:
I just don't see how you make the leap from "dislike and disapproval" (= abomination) to "hate". That passage does not promote "hate". That passage tells you that God disapproves and dislikes homosexual sex......that doesn't even apply to a homosexual relationship....just the act of sex itself.


Interesting. I've heard others say this as well. "The homosexual is sinless as long as he does not have sex. Kind of strange for 2 people to share and love each other and do all the things that any 'normal' couples does with the exception of sex, and given the fact that most couples MEET and become couples due to a sexual attraction, it seems very UNnatural for them NOT to have sex. And that is of course what is so UNnatural about christianity because people so often deny themselves from acting upon which God made so beautiful. And you MUST admit that sex is a very beautiful thing. Gay sex is no different. But I'm sure that your 'Lord' would strongly dissaprove of such human emotions as lust or sexual attraction, but that is YOUR God, your ideology and it's fine you believe that but it does not make it so just because a man wrote it 2000 years ago that you believe to have been under some kind of possession of a spirit being.

In this day and age I'd be more willing to believe that those 'prophets' were space aliens, but that would sound a little ridiculous huh? SO does the 'holy ghost'. In fact I think it's even more ridiculous. But then the Bible also teaches that sexual attraction is wrong. It describes sexual attraction as 'lust' and claims it is a sin. Pretty sexually repressed if you ask me. But I actually have known couples that don't have sex, but they aren't really even couples, they're called 'celibate' and if that 'sinner' (my church's word for those who remain abstinent) STAYS celibate long enough without acting upon their lust we would then refer to them as 'rapists' or 'sex criminals'. Sexual repression/sex crime -- they all are in a similar territory. Why do you think so many of the sex crimes we see were committed by members of the clergy? Men or women who made a COMMITTMENT to remain celibate. Rest assured this is no accident. Celibacy = sex crimes.


OH -- and I did read that quote on the next page. It was kind of depressing. She must have REALLY done some bad things!! It sounds an AWFUL lot like the 2nd set of symptoms that a person who's taken the ceremonial and religious plant 'Ibogaine' from Central Africa experiences. They frequently are able to feel the emotions that their loved ones and acquaintances feel towards them and how they have wronged them. I did quite a bit of research on this plant and was trying to obtain some in a therapuetic setting to see how I would react. Many doctors have used it here in the US for therapy. It's very effective.

How did you like the Kabir poem?
 
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